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N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    @Chris_5339762 There is always going to be a jam when you try to put more vehicles through a roadway than it can take. That happens every morning and evening at the JLT, so the designers have to decide how to manage this jam to cause the least disruption. That’s what they did, and while it’s not nice to be stuck in there, if you remember that the point of the new interchange was to prevent a jam on one arm blocking all others, you’ll at least know why it’s happening to you...

    The wide diverge is necessary to sort Little Island and M8 traffic from tunnel traffic. At the point where the lanes branch off, the mainline is four lanes. The left two lanes go into the interchange, and the rightmost other two will go over it, here:

    There’s two lanes here to allow any late arrivals to move left if they need Little Island. An auxiliary lane opens about 200 m down the road for Little Island traffic to leave.

    Once Little Island traffic is gone, traffic from M8 needs to be sorted out from traffic that will use the tunnel. Again, one extra lane arrives here so that M8 leavers don’t interfere with tunnel-takers.

    At this point, you could bring the remaining mainline down to one lane, as it has only one destination and that destination is only one lane wide (this lane runs directly into the left lane of the JLT), but if you do that, you lose capacity on the interchange itself, which could cause traffic to back up to a point where it prevents people from leaving for Little Island and M8 further up, which brings us back to the old problem of tunnel traffic blocking people wanting to get to M8 North or Little Island West. Keeping two lanes beyond here is a buffer: it isn’t a “jam generator” so much as jam isolator: it confines the delays to the traffic stream that will use the tunnel, or does so as much as is possible.

    I agree with you that the end of that lane (below) is somewhat sub-optimal. A taper should have started further back, given the average Irish driver’s bloody-minded refusal to yield to anyone on their right, but it’s imperative that there aren’t three lanes trying to merge into the centre one here, as that situation is guaranteed to cause collisions.


    I suspect the original design was to use bollards or some other kind of soft divider to prevent everyone trying to pile into the centre lane at the same time, but that may have been ruled out after the planning was submitted, and now that right-hand “lane” appears to be kept as a refuge for over-height trucks:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55 ✭✭Leatra


    My impression was that Lane 3 in your image (which is now hatch-marked and very poorly blocked off, with the signage appearing abruptly in front of you when you crest a hill) was originally put in to give volume priority to N25W traffic over traffic leaving Little Island, by ensuring that a full lane from the N25 was able to continue beyond the merge with local traffic. With two zipper merges working properly, one after another, you'd ideally get a two to one ratio of N25W to LI and so minimise overflow back onto the mainline by ensuring as many cars as possible got onto the slip.

    The fact that the hatching was only added a good bit after the full opening suggests to me that they saw the typical inability of Irish drivers to use two lanes efficiently (every time I take it, I see multiple cars on N25W crossing the gore between exit lane 1 and exit lane 2), felt it was causing trouble and ultimately just took away our crayons. I think we'd be better off if it had been kept fully open, especially when it comes time to push Little Island traffic toward alternative modes, as intra-urban traffic is now being given nearly even priority with (theoretically) inter-urban traffic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The tunnel should be widened (and it should have been built properly in the first place but this is Ireland). What will also be needed is new flyovers at the Dunkettle interchange from the widened tunnel on to the N25 in both directions and a rebuild of the shambolic N8 mainline through the junction.

    We shouldn't accept "it'll do" because this is exactly the outcome that happens. The "new" Dunkettle interchange is redundant already because of small peripheral thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,615 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Oh good. Kermit has a new and realistic slant on things

    Dude you have yet another poster hiding you now. Enjoy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yes but first we need an underground rail system with at least 50 lines, connecting all the suburbs. Then we need cycleways connecting every individual house in the city. We'll get around to widening the tunnel out to 16 lanes then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭chalkitdown1


    It's quite clear that about 50% of the traffic issues in the city are due to 'school runs'. It's absolutely mad that there isn't a proper universal school bus scheme in the city. The amount of private traffic they would take off the roads would be quite substantial.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Most school runs are a diversion of an existing parental commute, and most are at the "home" end of that commute. The ones you notice, parents dropping children at urban secondary schools, should be better handled, but they have no real impact on pinch-points further back on the journey: that person would be driving that car through there anyway.

    The big drop in traffic at this time of year is due to people taking summer holidays, something that a large share of commuters cannot do while their children are in school. And as this isn't the 1950s, one family holiday often takes two cars off the road...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep drop in multi-tripping and people taking time off are the big differences.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    I've just returned after four months driving in Spain, Portugal and France. As I headed eastbound on the N40 having come from Ringaskiddy Ferry Port the advance overhead signs for the M8 certainly looked unique and unlike what I had got used to on my travels. Had I not know better from local knowledge I would certainly have been tempted to think I could access the M8 from either lane of the N40.

    I did notice some lane information painted on the road before the JLT but the speed and proximity of other vehicles prevented me from actually reading the information before I passed over it.

    The first indication that the only lane from which to safely access the M8 is lane 2 of the N40 was the signs at the M8 slip itself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,631 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    I use the tunnel most days albeit not at peak time for the most part but i completely fail to see the benefit that has been brought about by such a massive investment of money, its a huge amount of spend to have not resolved all the traffic issues in the area. There are still long delays approaching the tunnell at both sides, the areas around the Dunkettle interchange like little island are still gridlocked at peak times and thats looking at current times with no schools and quieter traffic during summer holiday periods and no incidents.

    If this is as good as it gets and the population of road users continues as it is then its not a great level to be starting from.

    Are there any official figures on journey times and car numbers that contradict what im observing where pre construction and post construction levels are compared?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The new interchange was never going to address capacity of the tunnel. It can’t. The capacity of each tunnel bore is fixed, and is not going to be increased.

    What the interchange was meant to do, and what it actually does very well, is isolate the effects of congestion. So, if you’re backed up going north through the tunnel, other people can now still freely access the southbound bore. When the old roundabout was in place, congestion on any arm of the roundabout basically blocked access for all routes approaching it.

    Yes, this is as good as it gets - but it’s also as bad as it gets too. The problem isn’t “not enough lanes”, it’s “too many private cars”. Our next move is to move current drivers onto alternative transport options. That means train or bus (you can’t cycle through the tunnel). To be clear, I did not just say “make everyone take the bus/train” - there will always be drivers who have no other option; right now, that’s almost all drivers, so we need to start providing those options. Reducing the number of drivers who have no choice but to drive through the tunnel every morning and evening is the best bang for the buck we can do here: there will not be another tunnel bore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭cork_south


    I never envisaged, after spending close to 200 million euro, that my daily commute via the tunnel would be worse than it was previously but here we are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,631 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    I dont see how anything in the public transport arena can reduce numbers significantly enough, unless your talking about a widespread urban rail system linked to the trainstation taking in places like blarney, ballincollig, airport, douglas, ringaskiddy, carrigaline, mahon etc and thats never going to happen.

    A huge portion of the traffic through the tunnel is commercial and wont ever change.

    If someone is coming from east cork already and using the car then the trainline into town just dont suit their destination, an extension to youghal might help some people but of those from further afield than midleton that would use the train how many are not already driving to east cork stations parking and getting the train already?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Well the upshot of it all is that many people who might have traditionally seen the likes of myself as some kind of green-obsessed sustainable transport weirdos are now fully persuaded that we need to invest in other modes. Cars will always be part of the picture but in and around the city, the car can't be king in the urban area.

    We now have councillors of traditional parties speaking out saying "Dunkettle is done and the car commute is still bad, can we please invest in other modes". So every cloud has a silver lining I suppose.

    Edit: it still boils my pi$$ that they didn't put in a proper East-West cycle/pedestrian route through the scheme. They absolutely knew the issues and specifically chose not to design for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Commercial traffic flows fine, as most of it avoids the morning and evening commuter peaks anyway. I use this road a lot: it’s only bad from 07:45 to 09:00 and then 16:30 to 17:30, Southbound is worse in the mornings than northbound; it reverses in the evening, Friday’s evening peak is about half an hour earlier than usual. But outside of those times, traffic flows freely.

    But commercial traffic is only a small minority of what’s on this road. There’s only one cause here, and it’s an enormous rise in private car commuters. Nobody is choosing to do this crappy commute; they’re forced to. There are lots of reasons for this, but the biggest is that our dysfunctional housing market is forcing people to live further and further from their place of work, so people who would normally have lived within the city boundaries are now commuting from as far away as Youghal.

    The point I was making is that there will be no more spent on this road: the only way to accommodate more cars is to build another tunnel bore, and that will cost the better part of a billion euro, and based on every similar intervention everywhere else on earth, within five years, the traffic jams will be back. It’s just not happening. If we’re going to spend over €500 million in Cork to reduce traffic congestion in the tunnel, there’s cleverer and more effective ways to do it than expensively kicking the can down the road for a few years.

    “Better options” means better public transport in general, but it doesn’t just mean public transport. It also means providing more homes in the places where they’re needed, and where there’s better access to public transport. It’s not like all of the the people living miles away are in their dream home on a huge site: most are living in the same kind of new-build semi-D packed in a private housing estate that they couldn’t afford anywhere nearer to Cork.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    …and another tunnel bore won't work. What would be needed is another tunnel bore, 3 lanes through to the M28 junction and across the Douglas Viaduct to the Kinsale Road junction.

    And even then all of the offramps will be jammed up solid.

    But there is no political will to do much really. You can add all the trains you like to the eastern corridor, it won't change the fact that the onward connections from Kent station are very poor still.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Yes. Getting off topic, but the Cork Light Rail is going to be a big part of the answer here, as there's zero chance of a direct heavy-rail service into the trip magnets of Mahon, Bishopstown.

    Agreed with the extra costs of another tunnel bore, but most damningly it would also require building Dunkettle interchange for a third time, and even the normally car-blind crusaders against "government waste" would object to that.

    The knock on works needed to facilitate another tunnel bore would pay for a bus corridors and couple of light rail lines in the city. That's where the transport budget has to go now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,631 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers



    Another piece of the pie is a north ring road connecting to the south ring somewhere on the western side of the city and the M8 ideally around watergrasshill.

    The tunnel is the essentially funnelling the majority of traffic into two lanes to cross the river as its the only way to cross the river outside of the city bridges (discounting the Bridge at the anglers as its local road). So essentially the tunnel is taking all the southbound traffic from East of the current M8, a lot from west of M8 inside the urban area, and almost all beyond that from watergrasshill up. Traffic from Limerick to the airport or ringaskiddy is forced off dual carriageway into urban areas and onto DC again

    The same is true of the northbound traffic and its taking in a greater area as west cork and many areas of Kerry are forced to use the tunnel travelling almost anywhere north.

    Sure public transport needs improving, the Mallow and Midleton train lines need expanding in service and maybe some stations need work, but Cork needs a ring road. North cork needs to and can grow and a ring road will help that and alleviate a lot of the pressure on the Tunnel.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Another way I think about it is for both commuting, short or long distance traffic, just try getting from anywhere in the Cork area to anywhere else in the Cork area without going on the N40. Its next to impossible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Would agree totally with this. The North Ring is massively needed - in fact doing the Limerick Road without it seems like yet another recipe for disaster.

    The second thing that could be done - and surely done pretty cheaply and quickly if there was a will to do it - are the Park & Rides that were promised years ago. Put them on the artery routes and charge a euro for a car - it surely can't make things worse than what they are.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Yes, doing the M20 without doing the M20 - M8 link is one of the dumbest decisions currently being drawn up. And for Mr Ryan to not fund the entire north ring is an absolute joke, especially given this. You can't with any logic have freight etc from Ringaskiddy any up the west coast being routed M28 - N40 - Blackpool - M20. Its absolutely daft, and for the sake of only a few kilometers of a connection.

    And no, the Northern Distributor is not an acceptable alternative.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,631 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    There was talk of a park and ride in glounthane, but its hard to see irish rail happy about having that competition directly on its rail line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    No the P&R is planned for North Esk. I don't see the value in it, I'd prefer them to pump money into Little Island instead. By all means put in a new stop and develop in North Esk but P&R there seems wasteful.

    I'm in favour of the North Ring, but not at the expense of the massive investment in urban transport. The N40 North must have few junctions. It's currently being talked about as connecting at the existing Killylough junction (Sarsfields Court), rather than Watergrasshill.

    Unfortunately even if we do the North Bypass, most East Cork traffic is still going through Dunkettle, so the urban transport system is the top priority for me. The council are trying to progress the Northern Distributor project at least, so that's a start.

    I want a North Bypass, a Northern Distributor and massive Cork Urban Sustainable Transport investment, but if I must pick priorities then then it's the urban transport network, then the distributor (because of the lack of housing) and then the North Bypass, in that order.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I think you can blame Ryan for a lot, but not this. The N40 North was deliberately not coupled with the NM20 purely because it's been so difficult to get the NM20 moved. This was before Ryan's time. It may suit him perfectly, it may be his preference, but it wasn't his doing. The not moving the N40 project itself north separately is likely him alright.

    Agreed the Distributor is not an acceptable alternative. It's not an alternative full stop. But it's probably a priority above the N40 North in fairness, due to the lack of housing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Surely there could be a P&R that uses the railway??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,631 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers




  • Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭pauly58


    Surely an answer to the rush hour jams would be if you can work from home you should be allowed to do so. I'm not saying make it compulsory or obviously if your work makes it impossible, but if you can & want to do it, then it should be possible. Both of my sons work from home & wouldn't have it any other way.

    I think a lot of managers were worried that with people working from home & things going fine then they weren't needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Why not have a dedicated train stop at the freight area with a multistorey car park. It's not unusual at all in an international context. Granted the bus connections from Kent needs to be massively improved. But that's all possible with a reasonable investment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I'm not sure what you're both discussing, but the current P&R proposal is a surface car park at North Esk, feeding a train station there. I'm saying put the parking at Little Island and develop North Esk as an office-type employment area like Eastgate. It'd be connected by "greenway" (let's not discuss the shambolic design).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Most of the North Esk industrial area is privately operated. The stacks of containers you see by the railway are not CIÉ’s business, but in an inland container terminal operated by Cosgrave Transport. P+R is all that’s possible in the space available at North Esk. I also think that a diversion to a P+R site at Little Island would be too far for traffic arriving from M8.

    Tenants of any office development so far outside of the city would insist on having car-parking spaces (see EastGate), and that would eat up the available land. I think it’s better to put office developments at Kent Station, and use these outer areas as P+R locations.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I think the P&R at North Esk is already far too far from the M8 to be of any real value. It'll only really be useful for people coming from the East. Almost nobody is coming down the M8 and going in to Tivoli now, they're all exiting at Killalough and Watergrasshill and rat running through the Northside. I see almost no value in another car park 1km away from Little Island station car park.

    I'd agree that tenants of office developments outside the city want parking spaces, but they're already being refused them: see the unfortunately-named Parkplace in Eastgate! I definitely agree that it's better to encourage offices at Kent in fairness, I just don't see the value in a P&R so close to Little Island and so far from the M8. I'd sooner see one at the other side of the Interchange at the Tivoli Crosbie Transcar holding lot: it could double up as a station for the future development of the lands there. With loads of spaces free in Little Island every day I'd say of all the proposed stations in the Cork area, the North Esk one looks like one of the least useful



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Personally not sure which is the best location for P&R. But years after a number ringing the city were proposed, we still only one. And that one is more expensive than parking for an hour in town which seems totally counterproductive to me.

    There was supposed to be one in Dunkettle, one in the Northside, one in Ballincollig direction I think? They really need to be just done - and like I said, charge a euro a a car so that it is cheaper than parking in town for an hour. Right now, Black Ash is really biased towards day long parking which isn't helping traffic in town.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    I think charging anything to use a P&R car park is a mistake. The recurring costs of running a car park with no tolling infrastructure are negligible, so there isn’t a whole lot to be covered, and any deterrent can have a significant effect on uptake.

    • Financial: Even €1 a day adds up over a 46-week work year. It’s €230 after tax but if your marginal rate is 42% that’s approx €460 a year out of your salary when USC and PRSI are factored in.
    • Convenience: Sure, we should all be chill Zen monks during rush hour, but nobody wants to queue at a barrier to get in or out of a car park, nor do they want to stand in the rain at a pay+display machine.

    And any loss in revenue for Ireland Inc from not charging for the P of P&R has to be offset against the reduction in costs associated with having fewer private vehicles on our streets.

    FWIW, if I was responsible for transport, I wouldn’t even be charging for the R of P&R but I know that is a bridge too far for many.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Agreed. Encourage people to use it. Either way, right now a fiver for Black Ash is just stupid. If I need to do something in town that is going to take an hour, on street parking is half the price of Black Ash. That makes no sense....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The problem with P&R, and likely the reason they've been put on the long-finger is because the second someone gets into a car they're less likely to use public transport. While all of us who drive already think that a P&R is great, the top priority is retaining the people who already use public transport: trying to get them to not buy a car.

    That's again why I favour putting money into Tivoli or Little Island rather than North Esk. At both, station upgrades can make the station valuable for both P&R and non-car users.

    One place where I really strongly favour a P&R though is Blarney. And a small station in Blackpool. But these will probably only start when the passing loop in Kent is done.

    A P&R at Ballincollig or Glanmire would see bus passengers stuck in traffic behind cars unfortunately, so we desperately need bus priority to get full value out of them. The one at black ash works because the bus usually isn't badly held up too badly by traffic.

    Anyway just keeping it on-topic, I don't see P&R as being a high priority for Dunkettle/North Esk



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Actually on the topic of North Esk, it might be a better use of the space to make it the location of IÉ engineering and maintenance works, and move all of the engineering and maintenance out of Kent. I know the track through Tivoli is congested but that land at Kent is unbelievably valuable



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,603 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    On the tunnel , I don't think the tunnel is the problem , it's the multiple merges just before the tunnel , ( heading south ..) pre summer In the mornings I the was going from bumper to bumper traffic on the approach to traffic starting to stretch out a bit in the tunnel , unless of course there was a crash on the n40 ,

    The dunkettle interchange is the biggest traffic interchange in cork , that it was built without any thought to public transport is a bit bonkers,

    So a ,city centre, ballincolig, CUH,UCC,CIT, quality rail service will make the midleton ,cobh and mallow services far more useful ,

    Kind of need an effective south ring bus service too , basically dunkettle to bandon road , fast frequent,and connected to as many other transport routes as possible..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    We were discussing this at work the other day. Two of us out of an office of three working in Wilton would at least try the public transport option if the links between the railway station and Wilton were better. The 208, the sensible option requires climbing a long flight of very dodgy and antisocial stairs to get to the bus stop so is out. The 205 doesn't take you to the right spot and the 214 goes halfway to Bandon.

    The Cork Luas will connect the station to Wilton properly, and is an integral part of any public transport solution but seems to be mired in early stage pissing and moaning.

    Post edited by Chris_5339762 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    214 runs from the station to CUH these days, but 214 is not a frequent, or particularly punctual, service.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    One of the issues contributing to the tailbacks on Link K is the slow movement if traffic after the 3 into 1 merge.

    While the speed limit is 60km/h, which I know is not a target, many negotiate the link's tail at something like 30 or 40 km/h. The unnecessarily slow clearance after the merge points only aggravates the extent of the queueing on Link K and demonstrates the pi$$ poor driving ability of so many.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Corrected my post. I meant the 214 goes halfway to Bandon, not the 208. The route of the 214 is absolutely ridiculous. Busconnects will help with that, if the whingers would go away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    It's been mentioned many times on this topic, here's an official line on how merging should and should not be managed.

    Perhaps if the signage mentioned was installed on Link K it might help speed up the throughput and reduce the queue length at peak times.

    Post edited by niloc1951 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,603 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    IMO the merge lane from little island , just before the tunnel , is far too long , it's a 60kph speed limit there , and then the actual merge point is just before a blind downhill turn , straight into the tunnel ,

    Basically it merges where people automatically slow down ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭BagofWeed


    Going M8 N40 to tunnel last night and someone coming to the end of the N8 N40 loop wouldn't merge, he just accelerated and crossed hatchings to get in front of me and I had to slam on the brakes hard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Had a nice gentleman in a BMW going from N25W to tunnel the other day in the overtaking lane of the slip barrel down onto the hatching, continue onwards until the lane physically disappears where it merges into the tunnel, then force his way in. Absolute clown.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    This really has become the de-facto N40 thread now.

    Another crash this morning, this time at Mahon west backing traffic up solid until about 10am. Another crash eastbound at Mahon - one smashup caused the other by rubbernecking.

    I was through about 20mins before it happened but I'm not surprised there were problems. A glary morning from the sun and a rainbow to distract people. And a driver pottering along the Douglas Viaduct at 30kmh because the bathroom furniture he was carrying in his trailer wasn't strapped down AT ALL and was coming loose.

    Last week a tunnel closure westbound at 7am due to an overheight vehicle. I got the ferry.

    All the talk about the North Ring, Northern and Southern distributor, bus routes, train routes, the Cork Luas. None of it seems to be moving at all and any of the useful stuff is a decade away at best. Commuting is getting extremely miserable - and I'm not allowed to WFH due to management intransigence. Fortunately, I start early but I feel sorry for the poor sods who can't.

    Post edited by Chris_5339762 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 606 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    Tbh, I think the Southern Orbital Distributor and Northern Orbital Distributor should be the main priorities (although in an ideal world they’d all be priorities!). Get local city traffic off the N40 and out of the tunnel. As discussed before, it’s probably causing the main capacity issues and defeats the purpose of the N40. It can’t be a bypass and distributor. However, I’d take a different approach to them than the city council’s plans - instead I’d use new roads.


    The Southern Orbital Distributor could be:

    Mahon Link Road - Jacob’s Island Road - new bridge across the river to Rochestown Road - Monastery Road - new road through Garryduff/Moneygurney to Ballinimlagh Road - new road to Elm Hill - Airport Road - new road to Spur Hill - new road to Bandon Road


    This is mostly greenfield and provides access for those in the city commuting from suburb to suburb. They could implement heavy restrictions that prevent HGV from using it. The existing local roads could be used for bus and cyclist priority to hit the densest areas. The junctions would have to be laid out in such a way that it can’t be used as an extension of the N40, so heavy good vehicles won’t use it. I think it would be complicated but could work. Junctions could be:

    Blackrock/Mahon (at R852)

    Rochestown/Passage West (at R610)

    Maryborough/Mount Oval (at Garryduff Rd)

    Douglas (via R609)

    Donnybrook/Carrigaline (at Ballinimlagh Rd/vis Donnybrook Hill & Ballinrea Road)

    Grange/Frankfield (at Elm Hill/via Cooney’s Lane)

    Airport/City Centre (via N27)

    Leghanamore/Togher/Wilton (via Spur Hill/Sarsfield Road)

    Bishopstown (via Bandon Rd or Waterfall Rd)


    That way, anyone living on the southside can get to the other parts of the southside without using the N40 or local roads. This should be accompanied by the closing of N40 on ramps within the city to encourage people to use the new road. Specifically: Mahon Westbound ramp, Rochestown on ramp, Douglas Westbound ramp


    Thoughts?

    Post edited by DylanQuestion on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Agreed - they need to be done. But with the general trend (quite rightly I guess) of pedestrian and bus priority, the N40 will still be the faster option. Sure, they'll provide more capacity, but people will still stay on the dual carriageway rather than potter around the new road.

    Closure of junctions will cause absolute uproar; I just can't see it happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 606 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    Without junction closures, I just can’t see a distributor road (whether it be how I laid one out, or one following the R610, R609 and R851) being used. You’re right that it would cause uproar, but I think it’ll have to happen. The N40 as it is is just way too convenient. The benefit of the one I laid out I think is that it, while goes around the southside rather than through it like the N40, it has a regional (or high capacity) connecting it to each neighbourhood. Other than the central neighbourhoods (like Ballinlough, Ballintemple, Turner’s Cross, etc), you wouldn’t need to drive through the neighbourhoods to get between them. For example, going from Mahon Point to Douglas, you’d drive over to Rochestown Road via the new bridge and down the R610. Not a major difference between driving onto the N40 and to Bloomfield. If you’re going from Dunnes in Bishopstown to Donnybrook, you wouldn’t have to get onto the N40 and navigate Kinsale Road Roundabout and go through Grange. If you’re going from Maryborough to Wilton, you don’t need to go onto the N40 and add to the Bloomfield Interchange traffic. It’s not a perfect fix by any stretch of the imagination, but it takes existing traffic and moves it to somewhere that doesn’t impact national traffic bypassing town.

    They’d also need to ensure that the new road doesn’t just facilitate urban sprawl. It’s close enough to the built up city that it shouldn’t, but there would need to be strict rules preventing development south of it. This would also help prevent it from being a trip generator for trips that don’t already exist



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I understand what you're getting at here and I don't disagree, but I don't see how that's going to get done. The level of opposition will be just enormous. A Northern Bypass will be comparatively easier. And a Northern Distributor is apparently moving slightly forwards. I'd actually say the next step Southside will be mass transit, between Mahon and the city. If that could somehow extend to either Douglas or Passage/Carrigaline it would be revolutionary. But again, massive effort and cost and opposition.

    For instance, a tram that hugged the N40 through Bessborough, SOMEHOW got past the Golf Course and past (under?) the N40 could terminate at Douglas Court. But what a huge project. Pure fantasy stuff really.



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