Should the Luas Red Line be closed?

darkman2

I knew, as soon as the route was unvieled, I knew the problems were coming. Anti social behaviour and just out and out thuggery is rampant on the Luas red line (anybody supprised listening to the Joe Duffy show today? Anyone at all?) - proving what I already knew - you cannot give those people anything in those areas because they make a sh*t of it....and I expect some lefties to say "it's not everyone" etc etc bleeding hearts........it's a larger proportion of people then in other areas that could have been served just because of the areas it goes through....now it's like a national humiliation with tourists and everything being subjected to the worst in scumbag behaviour - and that's the sober ones - what about the drunks and the junkies? Embarrassing - take it away. Put it through areas that are somewhat civilised (I know they are rare in Dublin but still) :mad: Or better take away all the free transport etc for scumbags and junkies.

amacachi

darkman2 wrote: »

take it away. Put it through areas that are somewhat civilised (I know they are rare in Dublin but still):mad:

Rightso, I'll pick up one end, you pick up the other?

Kashkai

Why don't the LUAS heavy mob, aka ticket inspectors, do something about the junkies/alco's hanging round the vending machines intimidating women and tourists alike while looking for their change? I suppose its far easier for the ticket inspectors to hassle ordinary workers who have tickets than the drunks/junkies who don't.

donvito99

So your suggesting abondoning billions of euros just cos it goes through a rough area?

Please cop on.

murphaph

Or maybe just crack down on anti-social behaviour.

Jeapy

can you at least give examples of this "thuggery"? we don't all suffer through joe duffy!

bangersandmash

darkman2 wrote: »

I knew, as soon as the route was unvieled, I knew the problems were coming. Anti social behaviour and just out and out thuggery is rampant on the Luas red line (anybody supprised listening to the Joe Duffy show today? Anyone at all?)

I assumed only the proles listened to Joe Duffy, no? :rolleyes:

Seriously I'd agree that there's a significant difference between the kind of experience you'll get on the two Luas lines if you frequently use either. Obviously scrapping the Red Line is logistical and financial nonsense. But also the suggestion that further isolating Dublin West will somehow improve life in the city in general is a little misjudged. It's a recipe for creating ghettos. Dublin is a very small city in global terms. Decisions made regarding those areas you don't like are still going to spill over and affect you in <insert "rare" civilised Dublin area>.

Funny I remember the criticism the DART and Luas received because they were perceived to mainly service affluent areas where people balked at public transport. I guess you can't win.

donvito99

Jeapy wrote: »

we don't all suffer through joe duffy!

Hee hee :pac:

kevinkilbane

darkman2 wrote: »

I knew, as soon as the route was unvieled, I knew the problems were coming. Anti social behaviour and just out and out thuggery is rampant on the Luas red line (anybody supprised listening to the Joe Duffy show today? Anyone at all?) - proving what I already knew - you cannot give those people anything in those areas because they make a sh*t of it....and I expect some lefties to say "it's not everyone" etc etc bleeding hearts........it's a larger proportion of people then in other areas that could have been served just because of the areas it goes through....now it's like a national humiliation with tourists and everything being subjected to the worst in scumbag behaviour - and that's the sober ones - what about the drunks and the junkies? Embarrassing - take it away. Put it through areas that are somewhat civilised (I know they are rare in Dublin but still) :mad: Or better take away all the free transport etc for scumbags and junkies.

just a quick comment darkman.... you are dead right, and im from tallaght, i see what its like on buses and the luas, as i work in city centre but have no car. there are so many scumbags in the area. and also the areas where the red line goes through, the whole way, not just tallaght. ive been on the green line a good few times, much safer, much nicer etc.

but closing it, no, because there are nice people in every area too, why should they suffer???

smemon

maybe that's why they didn't link the two LUAS lines initially

if it's bad now, what can we expect from a metro / underground system :pac:

meganj

I'm actually mildly offended by this.

I live (or used to live but my mother is still there) near the Suir Road Luas stop. And I will have you know it's not all junkies and scumbags and what not. You get harrassed on the Green Line too you know! I was nearly violently assaulted on one trip! You can't just take it away because people are being harrassed, you improve security or at least teach the ticket inspectors to deal with them as they never have tickets instead of giving out to people who forget to swipe their smart card.

Anyway, the RED line is actually busier then the Green line. Serving more stops and going through areas of higher density. Therefore we make the government more money then you people on the green line.

IIMII

smemon wrote: »

maybe that's why they didn't link the two LUAS lines initially

Like the campaign in Ross O'Carroll Kelly against linking the lines with the slogan 'Different Nations, Different Stations'..

We just need transport cops, and something like Netwatch

sdanseo

Areas where public property is vandalised to the point of it being an ordeal to use it should be rewarded with the withdrawal of said services. They took the fire brigade out of ballymun a while back, local residents made sure the kids stopped bricking them after that.

corktina

more cameras and a Garda presence plus security with Alsatians. All this is for the sake of the majority living in those areas who are good decent people...

L1011

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Areas where public property is vandalised to the point of it being an ordeal to use it should be rewarded with the withdrawal of said services. They took the fire brigade out of ballymun a while back, local residents made sure the kids stopped bricking them after that.

Problem in this case is that because bus services along the route have atrophied since it opened; you'd effectively starve a number of industrial areas of their staff. There'd be jobs lost if it was even halted for a week.

dowlingm

Get cameraphone footage (discreetly) and youtube it.

Carawaystick

dowlingm wrote: »

Get cameraphone footage (discreetly) and youtube it.

that'd only get in the "also related to" Pikey Mikey


A heavy crackdown on the antisocial elements is what's needed. withdrawing services in response to criminal behaviour is such a limp wristed admission of gutlessness, I'd expect it to happen after the govt set up a subcommittee to appoint consultants to genrate a report into the issues that may occur.....


anyhow antisocial behaviour doesn't just happen on the luas, there's carparks too, joe.

D'Peoples Voice

darkman2 wrote: »

I knew, as soon as the route was unvieled, I knew the problems were coming. Anti social behaviour and just out and out thuggery is rampant on the Luas red line (anybody supprised listening to the Joe Duffy show today? Anyone at all?) - proving what I already knew - you cannot give those people anything in those areas

I have to agree, this was discussed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=314291&page=4.
These people bring more shame on this country than our Government:mad:
There is no point in putting security here, because apart from the cost being prohibitive, catching these people will not see any of them punished so there is no deterrent.
For example, this guy with 23 previous convictions was sentenced to two years in prison with one suspended. Imagine how much time he would have got if he only have 1 or 2 previous convictions? - would it even have went to court?
The vast majority of people caught for crimes in Ireland do not pay for their crimes in my opinion and thats the problem. Putting more security on these trams will only lead to more cases being brought before the courts NOT less of this type of activity!

darkman2

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I have to agree, this was discussed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=314291&page=4.
These people bring more shame on this country than our Government:mad:
There is no point in putting security here, because apart from the cost being prohibitive, catching these people will not see any of them punished so there is no deterrent.
For example, this guy with 23 previous convictions was sentenced to two years in prison with one suspended. Imagine how much time he would have got if he only have 1 or 2 previous convictions? - would it even have went to court?
The vast majority of people caught for crimes in Ireland do not pay for their crimes in my opinion and thats the problem. Putting more security on these trams will only lead to more cases being brought before the courts NOT less of this type of activity!

I thought the Luas red lines' main aim was to take children from all the deprived areas it goes through to the childrens court. From my experience it's a taxi service for them - free.

Slice

darkman2 wrote: »

I knew, as soon as the route was unvieled, I knew the problems were coming. Anti social behaviour and just out and out thuggery is rampant on the Luas red line (anybody supprised listening to the Joe Duffy show today? Anyone at all?) - proving what I already knew - you cannot give those people anything in those areas because they make a sh*t of it

I have an idea; let's take away their right to vote, their right to basic universal healthcare and their right to first, second and third level education as well while we're at it!

mikemac

It's not a problem all day, every day.
And it's certainly not in the morning on the way to work......as if many of them will ever have a job!

People know the times and the areas this happens at. Almost like clockwork.
The ticket checkers do nothing, they're happy to land fines on people who don't have a ticket but ignore the scumbags who are messing. And they are not exactly small guys, they could deal with this but don't

I posted it before but get the security company that Irish rail use.
The Luas is run profitably afaik, surely they can afford security guards to crack heads & monitor the Luas for a few hours every day.
Wouldn't cost that much and it might even encourage more paying customers to use it

Judgement Day

Let's be honest here, it's not just Luas it's the whole damn country plenty of law and no order! Between gangland criminals, druggies, scumbags and provo fellow-travellers we are on the verge of anarchy. An enormous but poorly led and equipped garda force - 'Lions led by Donkeys' - courts that fail to hand down realistic sentences, law makers that will not live up to their responsibilities and civil liberty groups with their heads up their arses! Prisons that are holiday camps for convicts to continue with their activities.............Surely this is not the vision of Independent Ireland of Dev and the other 1916 leaders!:mad::mad:

Guy:Incognito

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

Imagine how much time he would have got if he only have 1 or 2 previous convictions? - would it even have went to court?!

I'd say theres a good chance it would. How else would he get to 23 in the first place?



I must be in the minority but I've never had an issue on the Luas or the bus. Maybe people are just scared of me?

delta_bravo

In my 20 years of existence I have used the aul 'bread line' about 15 times at various hours of the day and have never experienced any trouble. Saying that though I am 6'3 and a prop forward so maybe I am not the best example

SteM

I've seen some awful things on the red line, mainly junkie on mrs. junkie violence though. The Luas operators know what's going on and when it's happening but refuse to do anything about it bar stick up a few 'we're watching you' posters. Shutting down the service would be a drastic step that would only inconvienence the lucky people that still have jobs and use it every morning and evening. It'll just shift the proplem elsewhere.

The 77 bus route is much worse imho.

D'Peoples Voice

Judgement Day wrote: »

Let's be honest here, it's not just Luas it's the whole damn country plenty of law and no order! Between gangland criminals, druggies, scumbags and provo fellow-travellers we are on the verge of anarchy. An enormous but poorly led and equipped garda force - 'Lions led by Donkeys' - courts that fail to hand down realistic sentences, law makers that will not live up to their responsibilities and civil liberty groups with their heads up their arses! Prisons that are holiday camps for convicts to continue with their activities.............Surely this is not the vision of Independent Ireland of Dev and the other 1916 leaders!:mad::mad:

yes, thats what I was trying to articulate - thanks you did it better than I could!

Stekelly wrote:

I'd say theres a good chance it would. How else would he get to 23 in the first place?

I was thinking of "summary convictions" versus "convictions on indictment".

helimachoptor

Would agree with some of the posters, there have been incidents on it some pretty major some not but generally they tend to be scumbag/ junkie vs scumbag/junkie and not scumbag/junkie vs decent person.

Though its pretty obvious that half of the people on it dont bother paying for tickets and they just get off if they see an inspector and wait for the next one.

Had a couple of incidents myself the most serious was were there was a girl who was most likely use to travelling the safe green line :rolleyes: was going out to an IT Tallaght party somewhere around the square, she was sitting facing me across the 2 doors if you understand me and she was on the phone and 4 scummers got on at Fatima, once she was finished on the phone they sat around her and start screaming at her trying to frighten her asking her to give them a look at her phone/ipod etc now this wasnt too late, about 8pm on a friday during last summer so enough people on the luas to intervene but no one did and when it looked like she was about to start crying her eyes out i stepped in, brave yes, stupid probably yes aswell but if people actually stood up to these clowns the red line would be a lot better, they got off at bluebell.

To be perfectly honest the red line is fine between Tallaght and Red Cow, gets worse from Kylemore into town. On the way out its bad from Abbey Street to Bluebell and then fine after that.

AlekSmart

To be perfectly honest the red line is fine between Tallaght and Red Cow, gets worse from Kylemore into town. On the way out its bad from Abbey Street to Bluebell and then fine after that.

Sadly,whilst Helimachoptor and others actually manage to identify and direct the RPA`s baleful gaze to the very locations of 95% of the trouble,our native need to be Politically Correct will require the RPA/Veloia to commission an independent study in order to identify the locations most affected etc etc....

The result of this study will,surprisingly enough,confirm Helimachoptor`s post,as we pretty well know.
It`s not Rocket Science...these savages are most confident when operating within their own scent-marked territory,once outside that they become wary even fearful.

Face them down before they KILL somebody !

KevR

murphaph wrote: »

Or maybe just crack down on anti-social behaviour.

A crack down in which passengers can play their part.

If people being harassed for spare change is a problem then people (even if they want to) shouldn't give money as it only encourages more begging at stops and on the trams. Some people might be fine with being asked money but it makes others feel very uncomfortable and intimidated so it's wrong to encourage it. If everyone stopped giving money, the begging would soon stop.

Try and have the exact amount of your fare ready before you even approach the stop/ticket machine. That way the machine isn't issueing you with change and if you're approached for money you can say "Sorry, I have no change and I actually only had enough money for my ticket with me". But if you don't have the exact far and the machine gives you change you can't exactly say that you have no change on you. However, that doesn't mean you still can't say no - say you need that change for a bus connection or something. You have to be firm if they try and pressure you.

Those excuses are mainly for shy or polite people who find it hard to say simply no. I'm not like that and depending on my mood I can be a bit rude about it.

smemon wrote: »

if it's bad now, what can we expect from a metro / underground system :pac:

Shouldn't be as bad because stations will (I think) have automatic barriers which will keep non-paying trouble makers away. The stations and trains should generally be more secure than a barrierless street tram and safer for the paying public.

helimachoptor

I dont be on the luas much these days but the times I have the ticket inspectors usually stick their heads in the door at red cow and thats it.

A few weeks ago I seen very militaristic looking security guys at Heuston, they seem like they would really clean it up.

Cuddlesworth

KevR wrote: »

If people being harassed for spare change is a problem then people (even if they want to) shouldn't give money as it only encourages more begging at stops and on the trams. Some people might be fine with being asked money but it makes others feel very uncomfortable and intimidated so it's wrong to encourage it. If everyone stopped giving money, the begging would soon stop.

Something most people don't understand.

KevR wrote: »

Those excuses are mainly for shy or polite people who find it hard to say simply no. I'm not like that and depending on my mood I can be a bit rude about it.

I find a polite "Fcuk off" works well too.

paulm17781

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Something most people don't understand.

Yeah, it annoys me when I see people giving beggars money. The ones at the Luas stops (even the green line) are particularly annoying. I was getting the Luas one time and a chap I see every morning comes up and starts "helping" my friend with the machine. My friend cut him mid sentence saying, "I'm not giving you money" and the guy changes tact, with a smile a says something like "Aw you've heard that one before?". My mate took his ticket, change and walked off but most people wouldn't be as stubborn as this friend is. What got me is he said no so they guy tries a different method of "We're mates. Now can I have some money?"

Cuddlesworth

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yeah, it annoys me when I see people giving beggars money. The ones at the Luas stops (even the green line) are particularly annoying. I was getting the Luas one time and a chap I see every morning comes up and starts "helping" my friend with the machine. My friend cut him mid sentence saying, "I'm not giving you money" and the guy changes tact, with a smile a says something like "Aw you've heard that one before?". My mate took his ticket, change and walked off but most people wouldn't be as stubborn as this friend is. What got me is he said no so they guy tries a different method of "We're mates. Now can I have some money?"

Best I ever saw was a little old lady with shopping bags beside trinity. I've seen her clear about 30-40 Euros in twenty minutes.

dsane1

Why dont our gardai patrol our transport system on a regular basis ,getting on and travelling a few stops .The same with the buses . I dont think we need transport police but our public transport seems to be a haven for lawlessness at the moment.

positron

More policing for the short term with severe model punishment. Use CCTV footage as evidence, get undercover Garda on trams, catch these thugs on the act, get them thru a faster special court system within days, and ship them off to some desert nation for 2 years of social service - work for food - that will teach them and rest of their "mates".

DWCommuter

Our public transport system has been a consistant haven for lawlessness for over 30 years. Could be longer, but thats the range for my lifetime experiences.

In the 70s, I remember trouble on the 22/23 and 40 bus routes. Stonings and attacks on board. Day time and night time. The CIE mystery train excursions were halted due to trouble on board trains.

In the 80s I remember similar incidents on the 51 and 78/9 routes. The DART has long been a venue for random criminal acts and now the luas has joined the party.

Public transport violence is just another part of an out of control society. A society that "do gooders" and ignorant middle/upper class law makers/enforcers have happily steered down a path of tolerance, combined with a jaded justice system and all in the name of "human rights". Its very easy to be fair and tolerant if you are shielded from the everyday experiences that terrify innocent people. Even today on Liveline the story has moved on to how people in certains areas of the country are being terrorised in their homes. I was until quite recently a fan of the transport police method, but we should really get the existing justice system up to scratch first. The law enforcement mechanics of this country are divided in two. Revenue collection through traffic and related fines and serious crimes such as murder/manslaughter investigations. The gap in the middle is a lawless no mans land filled with frightened citizens, a lack of justice, renegade scumbags and state apathy.

The poll is daft, but the discussion is good.

KevR

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Something most people don't understand.

Have seen signs up on public transport in the UK asking people not to encourage begging on the network by giving money. It's part of them signs which ask people not to talk loudly on phones, listen to loud music on their MP3s...etc with fellow passengers in mind.

I'm sure there are probably similar signs on transport in Dublin saying not to play loud music and stuff like that. These signs should include something about not encouraging begging as a courtesy to fellow passengers.

paulm17781

A friend of mine was mugged on the DART (between Sydney parade and Killiney) one evening in about 94 / 95. It was roughly 18.00 when this happened and no one did anything. He was physically attacked and no one did a thing about it. He would have been 13 / 14 / 15 and they were roughly the same age. Sad state of affairs really.

helimachoptor

I've seen far worse acts of thuggery on the Dart going southside than I have on the Red Line.

paulm17781

helimachoptor wrote: »

I've seen far worse acts of thuggery on the Dart going southside than I have on the Red Line.

There are scarier sorts on Luas red (IMO) but the DART has it's long carriages with no human presence and further between stops. I'd say it's easier to get away with stuff on it that it is on Luas.

monkeyfudge

I recently left a Digital SLR camera worth about €600 on the Luas. I got out at the Red Cow stop and noticed I'd left it on there.

Had a friend at the Square in Tallaght who I rang, he went and found the Luas at the terminus where a nice person was handing my camera into the driver.

So it's not all Luas horror stories.

helimachoptor

paulm17781 wrote: »

There are scarier sorts on Luas red (IMO) but the DART has it's long carriages with no human presence and further between stops. I'd say it's easier to get away with stuff on it that it is on Luas.

Would agree 100%, I think evening Darts should have less carriages same could be said for the Luas too I suppose.

D'Peoples Voice

helimachoptor wrote: »

Would agree 100%, I think evening Darts should have less carriages same could be said for the Luas too I suppose.

that comment brings back memories of a conversation I had with a moody Taxi Driver in 1999 or thereabouts.
Anyway he was complaining that the luas should be going underground, and i was saying that many women in particular were complaining that their safety would be threatened from the thugs that would hang around the stations underground.
He belief was that we should NOT be planning our transport policy around thugs but around the hard-working citizens of this country!
Certainly its a point to think about!

Judgement Day

I raised this point on a different thread - if thuggery is this bad on the DART and Luas can you imagine the nightmarish scenario that might occur on the Interconnector? :mad:

CiaranC

dsane1 wrote: »

Why dont our gardai patrol our transport system on a regular basis ,getting on and travelling a few stops .The same with the buses . I dont think we need transport police but our public transport seems to be a haven for lawlessness at the moment.

I cant believe you are the first person to say this.

There are antisocial elements all over the red line. Everyone knows it. Do the Garda know it? Of course they do.

What do they do about it? **** all. They are too busy driving around affluent areas waving at the middle class from their squadcars.

DWCommuter

CiaranC wrote: »

They are too busy driving around affluent areas waving at the middle class from their squadcars.

Or setting up check points to catch motorists out on all sorts of cash cow offences. I don't blame the rank and file. The problem lies somewhere higher with the people who created a society where drivers are scared ****less if their motor tax is out of date, a man can face jail for non-payment of a few weeks child maintenence, while a jumped up toerag can pop onto a train, tram, bus or even into a taxi and create havoc.

PCPhoto

like all of these threads ... a topic is started and eventually turns out to be a blaming game.....its the gardai fault, its the luas peoples fault, its the judges fault, its the politicians fault, its the fault of people giving beggers money !!! (honestly is there anyone who isnt to blame) ....oh i forgot its the scumbags/junkies fault.

Everyone agrees that our entire system needs to be changed - but the people in power seem to ignore the problems (or are actually in their own world and cant see the REAL issues)

In my opinion (and I'm sure others will agree) people that consistantly break the law should be punished properly - why not introduce a sliding scale the greater the number of offences the longer the sentence (of course also sentences reflective of seriousness of the crime)

Personally I'd like to sterilise (constant) repeat offenders - if they are completely ignorant of "normal" society they do not deserve to stain society with their offspring, we would possibly halve the amount of money given out to "spongers"

Why should someone have civil rights when they dont behave civil !!! (or human rights when they dont behave like a human)

bk

CiaranC wrote: »

What do they do about it? **** all. They are too busy driving around affluent areas waving at the middle class from their squadcars.

The strange thing is public transport is the one place that middle class people regularly come into contact with scum, so you would think that it would be in the Gardai's interest to actively police public transport in order to give the impression of law and order.

dowlingm

Are there designated waiting areas on DART? On the Toronto subway, there are specific spots which line up with where the train guard who controls the doors sits. They are lit up more than the rest of the platform, have a seat and an intercom to get assistance.
http://www3.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/Safety_and_Security/Security_features.jsp

Irish and Proud

darkman2 wrote: »

I knew, as soon as the route was unvieled, I knew the problems were coming. Anti social behaviour and just out and out thuggery is rampant on the Luas red line (anybody supprised listening to the Joe Duffy show today? Anyone at all?) - proving what I already knew - you cannot give those people anything in those areas because they make a sh*t of it....and I expect some lefties to say "it's not everyone" etc etc bleeding hearts........it's a larger proportion of people then in other areas that could have been served just because of the areas it goes through....now it's like a national humiliation with tourists and everything being subjected to the worst in scumbag behaviour - and that's the sober ones - what about the drunks and the junkies? Embarrassing - take it away. Put it through areas that are somewhat civilised (I know they are rare in Dublin but still) :mad: Or better take away all the free transport etc for scumbags and junkies.

I voted no - while there seem to be serious problems on the red line, to close it would simply be a cop out - after all, it's not the LUAS that's the problem, it's the few who like causing trouble - if it's not the LUAS, it will be something else...

...in short, it's the culprits that need dealing with - not the LUAS!

Regards!

DSB

DWCommuter wrote: »

a man can face jail for non-payment of a few weeks child maintenence

Yeah you're right, what a travesty. How dare they:rolleyes: