Do transgendered people have a moral obligation to disclose their previous gender?

The_Minister

As it says on the tin, and inspired by another message board.
We did a similar enough thread a while ago (I think it was "would you date a transgender"), but I don't think we covered the ethical side.

Quite a number of guys stated that they would have a serious problem if they found out that the woman who they had slept with was actually a man. I've heard people say that it would sicken them, and would "**** them up". There have even been murder cases where a "trans panic" (similar to gay panic) defence has been advanced, although I don't believe that it has ever been successful.

So the question is: "Given that discovering post-coitus that they have had sex with a transgendered man (post-operative) can be traumatic for men, do transgendered people have an obligation to reveal their real gender prior to intercourse (or even just kissing)? Or do the rights of privacy, and their right to live as their new gender, trump that concern? Is it a case of what they don't know can't hurt them?"

EDIT: I went looking for the thread I was thinking of, and all I could find was the Lydia Foy one - I think we discussed it in that thread.

2nd EDIT: And is there any moral similarities with not telling someone that you are married?

Stercus Accidit

Find a little something extra last night you didn't expect OP?

The_Minister

No, this thread is being discussed on another message board.

sneakerfreak

yes OP you do.

Vain

The_Minister wrote: »

No, this thread is being discussed on another message board.

Ya ya sure it is:rolleyes:

PeakOutput

they should defo tell them before anything happens

fine they believe that they are a woman born in a mans body they were still born in a mans body and someone who is potentially going to be sleeping with them has the right to know that

Mr.Lizard

What do you mean 'previous gender'? They're still whatever gender were before, only now with mutilated genitals.

WindSock

Good question. I find the whole transgendered thing to be something that deserves to be talked about a bit more. While I understand that a person wishes for society to accept them as the gender of their choice, I think it would be unfair to assume everyone they see sexually would be ok with the fact that they now look like a woman/man, when they haven't always been that way.

javaboy

Having consistently scored 10/10 on both Arse or Elbow? and Chick or Dick?, I can happily say it wouldn't matter. I'd figure it out anyway. For those less gifted individuals, I think it's only fair to tell them. If it's enough to turn them off a relationship, then they aren't exactly compatible anyway.

The_Minister

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

What do you mean 'previous gender'? They're still whatever they were before, only now with mutilated genitals.

I know, I know, but as a courtesy I tend to acknowledge the fact that they believe that they are another gender. I don't go out of my way to be extra nice or careful with my pronouns, but I try not to cause unnecessary insult.

The_Minister

Vain wrote: »

Ya ya sure it is:rolleyes:

Here

ShooterSF

Feck that. I think women should be made admit to wearing wonder bras.

0ubliette

Youd probably notice they werent actually female when you see the mangled inside out penis passing for a vag

on a completely unrelated topic, check out this hot chick!!

*NSFW* http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/465/04zp5.jpg

Nick_oliveri

0ubliette wrote: »

on a completely unrelated topic
*NSFW* http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/465/04zp5.jpg

Unrelated because "shes" TS and not TG?
Oh, did i spoil that for ya?

Hazys

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

The_Minister

Hazys wrote: »

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Popular culture fail - you should have said dolphin.

Mr.Lizard

Do you have some fetish for cow-men? I'm reading into it that you do.

Hazys

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

Do you have some fetish for cow-men? I'm reading into it that you do.

No i have more a fetish for people who are half man/half lizard...but its a pity u never get to meet these type of people

pablomakaveli

I'm surprised the ol' "every hole's a goal" line has'nt come up.

Turd Ferguson

Long term, yes I think they should say. As far as a 1 night stand goes, its probably best left unsaid. I would much rather be in the dark and think eveything was cool than to get a text from some "chick" along the lines of 'remember wen we had sex?well i used 2 hav a dick nd it was bigger den urs.lol'

WindSock

Hazys wrote: »

But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:)

You obviously haven't met Tiger Cat Man Dude

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adEjmXZOBnA

WindSock

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

Do you have some fetish for cow-men? I'm reading into it that you do.

Cowboys perhaps?

Morlar

I think any potential partner should always have the right to know & not just at the point of getting into bed either.

If it is really no big deal to all involved then whats the problem with being honest ?

Whether you support this kind of surgery or not it's not exactly a parking ticket you would be admitting to & if the sex-change person honestly thought their partner would be cool with it then there should be no issue clearing that one right up from the outset. It would be plain deceitful not to mention it.

ahara

They have a moral obligation to tell, doubly so if they happen to keep their former mickey pickled in jar and keep it around the house. The shock of finding that could easily kill their partner.

Lobelia Overhill

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

What do you mean 'previous gender'? They're still whatever gender were before, only now with mutilated genitals.

scientifically/medically speaking, that's incorrect. Transgendered people have the chromosome (XX or XY) of one gender and the sex organs of the other gender, or -in some cases- the genitalia of both genders. In very rare cases a child is born with no obvious genitalia (and are usually raised as a girl). It's all to do with embryos being female until the testosterone does/doesn't kick in, and occasionally the presence of a twin foetus that doesn't develop and some other chemical stuff that I can't remember ...

I tells ye having a friend who was a TG was a bloody eye opener ...

"You're a MAN?!?!?!?!?!"

"pre op transgendered actually"

"wha'?"

*long winded explanation*

'he' didn't have an adam's apple, or a trouser snake to speak of ... Lost contact years ago, heard she had the op eventually.

But to answer the Q, yes I think you should tell a partner these things.

me-skywalker

no they shouldnt tell because... they should have their eyes torn out of their sockets so they cant see nature as how its suppose to be.

Mr.Lizard

WindSock wrote: »

Cowboys perhaps?

No! Cowmen not cowboys. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a paedophile.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Yes, they should. Even in a one night stand as it could be pointed out to the person who sleeps with them at a later stage by someone else.

Mr.Lizard

How about on a speed-date?

Morlar

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

How about on a speed-date?

It would be an even speedier date if they do tell the truth.

SeekUp

The_Minister wrote: »

"Given that discovering post-coitus that they have had sex with a transgendered man (post-operative) can be traumatic for men, do transgendered people have an obligation to reveal their real gender prior to intercourse (or even just kissing)? Or do the rights of privacy, and their right to live as their new gender, trump that concern? Is it a case of what they don't know can't hurt them?"

And is there any moral similarities with not telling someone that you are married?

Do they have an obligation to? No. Look, if you're with someone long-term, hopefully you'd feel close enough to them to share something as big as that. But if you're just getting into it with someone who is attracted to you for who you are, right now, at this point in time, then it's up to you how much you want to disclose.

As far as the moral similarities re: marriage, this is no way the same thing to me. In one instance, you're breaking a vow. In the other instance, you're hiding something about your past. And let's be honest -- We omit truths all the time when it comes to people we sleep with, whether it be about age, what we like, what we do for a living, whether or not we have a criminal record . . .

Mr.Lizard

BTW, are the new bits on these transgenders even good enough that you couldn't tell the difference (say lights are on and victim is sober for the sake of argument)? I wouldn't have thought so.

Fratton Fred

say, for example, you got hammered in somewhere like Pattya and got a BJ off a ladyboy, does that count?

just asking for a friend like, you know, not me.....

Gummy Panda

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

Unrelated because "shes" TS and not TG?
Oh, did i spoil that for ya?

Whats the difference between TS and TG?

I thought they both want to be a different gender.

I'm confused about the difference.

Mr.Lizard

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Whats the difference between TS and TG?

I thought they both want to be a different gender.

I'm confused about the difference.

YOUR confused?

O'Coonassa

me-skywalker wrote: »

no they shouldnt tell because... they should have their eyes torn out of their sockets so they cant see nature as how its suppose to be.

Nature is full of freaks I find. The violent ones are defo the most offensive.

gurramok

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

YOUR confused?

I'm confused about your username

kiffer

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

Looks like someone hasn't been reading enough Sci-fi...
Why is person in quotes? Do you think that a person who decides to change their outward form is no longer a person? Sure a human that gets surgically altered to look and move like a dolphin(or cow, or something more crazy...) so that they can swim free in the sea might no longer be easily considered physically human in some ways but they would still be a person...

Hazys

kiffer wrote: »

Looks like someone hasn't been reading enough Sci-fi...
Why is person in quotes? Do you think that a person who decides to change their outward form is no longer a person? Sure a human that gets surgically altered to look and move like a dolphin(or cow, or something more crazy...) so that they can swim free in the sea might no longer be easily considered physically human in some ways but they would still be a person...

You say that now but when one of your grandchildren decides to become his true self, a crocodile-man.

Will you still treat him like a 'person' when at the family christmass dinner he eats one of your other grandchildren?

xOxSinéadxOx

Is it not a bit obvious that someone's a tranny anyway?

Denerick

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

You said it Cletus!

AckwelFoley

Very interesting question you pose there Minister.

The way i see it is, id like to know when i ram my cock in their mouth if im going to hit an Adams apple or not.

I don't mean to be picky but where is the ethical dilemma here?

Some men may not want to sleep with a transgender individual. That's ok.
Some men may not want to sleep with a woman who has had children. That's ok.
Some men may not wish to sleep with someone who has previously been married. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who are former criminals. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who have children. That's ok.

There is no moral obligation to tell a person ANYTHING about yourself before you sleep with them if it happens in a one night stand or alcohol induced manner. If the other person has decided, simply by an aesthetic evaluation of you, that they are willing to sleep with you then you have provided all the information they have asked for and/or require.

If, however, you are seeing a person socially and a relationship is blossoming then, of course, you should disclose any information which is pertinent to them making a full evaluation of the person they are getting to know. If you were born a man but were born the wrong gender and you utilised modern medical science to fix your situation then that was most definitely a massive formative experience for you and one which, if you care about the person you are getting to know, it would be better to disclose this at the beginning of a relationship than after any significant period of time had elapsed.

If a person is just using you for sex and you wish to use them back then so be it. You owe them nothing other than to be careful for the sake of both individuals health.

There is very little moral or ethical dilemma here really. The lines are really quite straightforward.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't mean to be picky but where is the ethical dilemma here?

Some men may not want to sleep with a transgender individual. That's ok.
Some men may not want to sleep with a woman who has had children. That's ok.
Some men may not wish to sleep with someone who has previously been married. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who are former criminals. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who have children. That's ok.

There is no moral obligation to tell a person ANYTHING about yourself before you sleep with them if it happens in a one night stand or alcohol induced manner. If the other person has decided, simply by an aesthetic evaluation of you, that they are willing to sleep with you then you have provided all the information they have asked for and/or require.

If, however, you are seeing a person socially and a relationship is blossoming then, of course, you should disclose any information which is pertinent to them making a full evaluation of the person they are getting to know. If you were born a man but were born the wrong gender and you utilised modern medical science to fix your situation then that was most definitely a massive formative experience for you and one which, if you care about the person you are getting to know, it would be better to disclose this at the beginning of a relationship than after any significant period of time had elapsed.

If a person is just using you for sex and you wish to use them back then so be it. You owe them nothing other than to be careful for the sake of both individuals health.

There is very little moral or ethical dilemma here really. The lines are really quite straightforward.

If a guy slept with a woman who was born a man he's going to be torn to shreds for the rest of his life if people find out. That doesn't apply to near the same extent as any of your scenarios.

They should say

Alias G

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

wtf nonsense are you spouting about.

Personally I'm more concerned about man/bear/pig.

liah

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

It's their body. Their choice. It has nothing to do with you. Why would you judge them? They don't judge you; they're just happily going on about their lives. It's no business of yours how they choose to live that life. It's no business of yours the joy or pitfalls that may come from it. It's their life experience; respect that, and don't be so judgemental-- you might learn a thing or two.

Jigsaw

I wouldn't "stand in their way" but I'd reserve my right to remain judgmental.

outsidearth

always they should!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If a guy slept with a woman who was born a man he's going to be torn to shreds for the rest of his life if people find out. That doesn't apply to near the same extent as any of your scenarios.

They should say

That is a generalisation.

The points I raise are to demonstrate that it is not the fact that the transgendered person is or was a specific gender, but rather how the other person feels about that procedure, that will determine the reaction to discovering the situation.

You say any man would be "torn to shreds". What if a woman slept with a man who had been convicted of murder? If she were so inclined this could have a devastating affect upon her. It is her reaction, and not the actions of the person with whom she has slept, that determine the severity of her response.

Therefore, where a person is simply seeking a one night stand, frankly they should be more selective. A transgendered individual does not see themselves as "formerly a man". They see themselves as always a woman, formerly trapped in a mans body. The distinction you lack in your thoughts is not lacking from theirs. Exactly how much information am I required to give to a person I meet in a bar and take home? My criminal record? Blood type? Number of previous sexual partners? Religion? Political views? How many bones I've broken? Whether I preferred Blur or Oasis back in the day?

If someone is engaging in a serious relationship, or meets and socialises in such a way that a serious relationship is a viable possibility, then yes, I agree that the issue of their transgender status should be revealed; just as any piece of information that is so obviously vital to the trust in any future relationship should be.

But where 2 people meet in a bar and go home together and have casual sex, I am afraid that both people need to accept that they are engaging in an incredibly high risk endeavour and if you are afraid of sleeping with a transgendered individual after Coppers one night then I would advise either ask every woman you fancy if she was born a man or else reconsider your approach to casual sex.

More than once I, and I am quite certain many others, have slept with people whose name they can barely recall. How much information do you require in these situations? If you were a transgendered person on the dancefloor and a man you fancied came over to you and started dancing and went in for the kiss (you've had a couple of drinks and are feeling a little flirty so why not?) are you saying that you are morally obliged to stop him and go, "I am sorry, but before we go any further I think there is something you should know..." ?

Frankly that is ridiculous. I would rarely tell people I meet in that situation much about me, if anything really, but because you have a problem with it you are suggesting they have a moral imperative to inform you before you go for it? If you want to randomly score people then that is fine, just don't ask them to follow your rules for it.

KnifeWRENCH

Yes/No: One night stand = no harm, no foul, but longer term relationship = different.

This.

kiffer

Hazys wrote: »

You say that now but when one of your grandchildren decides to become his true self, a crocodile-man.

Ok no problem... By crocodile-man I assume we mean a human that has taken on the physical characteristics of a crocodile whilst keeping their mind intact...

Not someone that has had their body changed into a crocodile body and then had their brain replaced by an actual crocs brain... At which point all bets are off...

You seem to think that if someone no longer looks human, they will no longer behave human. And also That in order to be a person one must be human...

Will you still treat him like a 'person' when at the family christmass dinner he eats one of your other grandchildren?

... How would you react if one of your grandchildren killed someone? Would you still treat them as a person? Murder is murder.


If your crocodile-man behaves like an actual crocodile at all times(NB) then you don't put/allow him in situations where you would not normally allow crocodiles... Just like you wouldn't allow a psychopath to run a day care center.