Do transgendered people have a moral obligation to disclose their previous gender?

Mr.Lizard · 20-04-2009 04:47PM

BTW, are the new bits on these transgenders even good enough that you couldn't tell the difference (say lights are on and victim is sober for the sake of argument)? I wouldn't have thought so.

Fratton Fred · 20-04-2009 05:08PM

say, for example, you got hammered in somewhere like Pattya and got a BJ off a ladyboy, does that count?

just asking for a friend like, you know, not me.....

Gummy Panda · 20-04-2009 05:15PM

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

Unrelated because "shes" TS and not TG?
Oh, did i spoil that for ya?

Whats the difference between TS and TG?

I thought they both want to be a different gender.

I'm confused about the difference.

Mr.Lizard · 20-04-2009 05:26PM

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Whats the difference between TS and TG?

I thought they both want to be a different gender.

I'm confused about the difference.

YOUR confused?

O'Coonassa · 20-04-2009 05:26PM

me-skywalker wrote: »

no they shouldnt tell because... they should have their eyes torn out of their sockets so they cant see nature as how its suppose to be.

Nature is full of freaks I find. The violent ones are defo the most offensive.

gurramok · 20-04-2009 05:37PM

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

YOUR confused?

I'm confused about your username

kiffer · 20-04-2009 06:29PM

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

Looks like someone hasn't been reading enough Sci-fi...
Why is person in quotes? Do you think that a person who decides to change their outward form is no longer a person? Sure a human that gets surgically altered to look and move like a dolphin(or cow, or something more crazy...) so that they can swim free in the sea might no longer be easily considered physically human in some ways but they would still be a person...

Hazys · 20-04-2009 06:46PM

kiffer wrote: »

Looks like someone hasn't been reading enough Sci-fi...
Why is person in quotes? Do you think that a person who decides to change their outward form is no longer a person? Sure a human that gets surgically altered to look and move like a dolphin(or cow, or something more crazy...) so that they can swim free in the sea might no longer be easily considered physically human in some ways but they would still be a person...

You say that now but when one of your grandchildren decides to become his true self, a crocodile-man.

Will you still treat him like a 'person' when at the family christmass dinner he eats one of your other grandchildren?

xOxSinéadxOx · 20-04-2009 07:16PM

Is it not a bit obvious that someone's a tranny anyway?

Denerick · 20-04-2009 07:27PM

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

You said it Cletus!

AckwelFoley · 20-04-2009 08:54PM

Very interesting question you pose there Minister.

The way i see it is, id like to know when i ram my cock in their mouth if im going to hit an Adams apple or not.

20-04-2009 09:09PM

I don't mean to be picky but where is the ethical dilemma here?

Some men may not want to sleep with a transgender individual. That's ok.
Some men may not want to sleep with a woman who has had children. That's ok.
Some men may not wish to sleep with someone who has previously been married. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who are former criminals. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who have children. That's ok.

There is no moral obligation to tell a person ANYTHING about yourself before you sleep with them if it happens in a one night stand or alcohol induced manner. If the other person has decided, simply by an aesthetic evaluation of you, that they are willing to sleep with you then you have provided all the information they have asked for and/or require.

If, however, you are seeing a person socially and a relationship is blossoming then, of course, you should disclose any information which is pertinent to them making a full evaluation of the person they are getting to know. If you were born a man but were born the wrong gender and you utilised modern medical science to fix your situation then that was most definitely a massive formative experience for you and one which, if you care about the person you are getting to know, it would be better to disclose this at the beginning of a relationship than after any significant period of time had elapsed.

If a person is just using you for sex and you wish to use them back then so be it. You owe them nothing other than to be careful for the sake of both individuals health.

There is very little moral or ethical dilemma here really. The lines are really quite straightforward.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-04-2009 01:56AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't mean to be picky but where is the ethical dilemma here?

Some men may not want to sleep with a transgender individual. That's ok.
Some men may not want to sleep with a woman who has had children. That's ok.
Some men may not wish to sleep with someone who has previously been married. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who are former criminals. That's ok.
Some women may not wish to sleep with men who have children. That's ok.

There is no moral obligation to tell a person ANYTHING about yourself before you sleep with them if it happens in a one night stand or alcohol induced manner. If the other person has decided, simply by an aesthetic evaluation of you, that they are willing to sleep with you then you have provided all the information they have asked for and/or require.

If, however, you are seeing a person socially and a relationship is blossoming then, of course, you should disclose any information which is pertinent to them making a full evaluation of the person they are getting to know. If you were born a man but were born the wrong gender and you utilised modern medical science to fix your situation then that was most definitely a massive formative experience for you and one which, if you care about the person you are getting to know, it would be better to disclose this at the beginning of a relationship than after any significant period of time had elapsed.

If a person is just using you for sex and you wish to use them back then so be it. You owe them nothing other than to be careful for the sake of both individuals health.

There is very little moral or ethical dilemma here really. The lines are really quite straightforward.

If a guy slept with a woman who was born a man he's going to be torn to shreds for the rest of his life if people find out. That doesn't apply to near the same extent as any of your scenarios.

They should say

Alias G · 21-04-2009 02:08AM

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

wtf nonsense are you spouting about.

Personally I'm more concerned about man/bear/pig.

liah · 21-04-2009 02:19AM

Hazys wrote: »

TS, TG i dont really like that its becoming more of a norm & common in society i.e. u wouldnt have heard about TS, TG people 50 years ago as much as you would now and in 50 years how normal & acceptable will it be in society?

I dont want to put anybody down by writting this, as people can live their lives whatever way they want as long as they are not hurting anybody else. But i just want to know will you ever be able to draw the line? In 50 years will trans-species people exist i.e. a person who is a cow trapped in a man's body and has surgeries to change into a cow (a wild example i know :pac:) will something crazy like that be acceptable? (id say if you told people 50 years ago that people could have surgery to change their sex they'd think its as crazy as the man-cow thing is to us).

I dont think there is much you can do, as when the first cow-man exists in 2059, we'll have to treat that 'person' with the same respect as any human...or would we just light up a barbie and have a few burgers?

Will society be a total mental place in 50-100 years if TG, TS people are starting to be considered normal now?

It's their body. Their choice. It has nothing to do with you. Why would you judge them? They don't judge you; they're just happily going on about their lives. It's no business of yours how they choose to live that life. It's no business of yours the joy or pitfalls that may come from it. It's their life experience; respect that, and don't be so judgemental-- you might learn a thing or two.

Jigsaw · 21-04-2009 02:24AM

I wouldn't "stand in their way" but I'd reserve my right to remain judgmental.

outsidearth · 21-04-2009 02:27AM

always they should!

21-04-2009 02:29AM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If a guy slept with a woman who was born a man he's going to be torn to shreds for the rest of his life if people find out. That doesn't apply to near the same extent as any of your scenarios.

They should say

That is a generalisation.

The points I raise are to demonstrate that it is not the fact that the transgendered person is or was a specific gender, but rather how the other person feels about that procedure, that will determine the reaction to discovering the situation.

You say any man would be "torn to shreds". What if a woman slept with a man who had been convicted of murder? If she were so inclined this could have a devastating affect upon her. It is her reaction, and not the actions of the person with whom she has slept, that determine the severity of her response.

Therefore, where a person is simply seeking a one night stand, frankly they should be more selective. A transgendered individual does not see themselves as "formerly a man". They see themselves as always a woman, formerly trapped in a mans body. The distinction you lack in your thoughts is not lacking from theirs. Exactly how much information am I required to give to a person I meet in a bar and take home? My criminal record? Blood type? Number of previous sexual partners? Religion? Political views? How many bones I've broken? Whether I preferred Blur or Oasis back in the day?

If someone is engaging in a serious relationship, or meets and socialises in such a way that a serious relationship is a viable possibility, then yes, I agree that the issue of their transgender status should be revealed; just as any piece of information that is so obviously vital to the trust in any future relationship should be.

But where 2 people meet in a bar and go home together and have casual sex, I am afraid that both people need to accept that they are engaging in an incredibly high risk endeavour and if you are afraid of sleeping with a transgendered individual after Coppers one night then I would advise either ask every woman you fancy if she was born a man or else reconsider your approach to casual sex.

More than once I, and I am quite certain many others, have slept with people whose name they can barely recall. How much information do you require in these situations? If you were a transgendered person on the dancefloor and a man you fancied came over to you and started dancing and went in for the kiss (you've had a couple of drinks and are feeling a little flirty so why not?) are you saying that you are morally obliged to stop him and go, "I am sorry, but before we go any further I think there is something you should know..." ?

Frankly that is ridiculous. I would rarely tell people I meet in that situation much about me, if anything really, but because you have a problem with it you are suggesting they have a moral imperative to inform you before you go for it? If you want to randomly score people then that is fine, just don't ask them to follow your rules for it.

KnifeWRENCH · 21-04-2009 02:41AM

Yes/No: One night stand = no harm, no foul, but longer term relationship = different.

This.

kiffer · 21-04-2009 09:30AM

Hazys wrote: »

You say that now but when one of your grandchildren decides to become his true self, a crocodile-man.

Ok no problem... By crocodile-man I assume we mean a human that has taken on the physical characteristics of a crocodile whilst keeping their mind intact...

Not someone that has had their body changed into a crocodile body and then had their brain replaced by an actual crocs brain... At which point all bets are off...

You seem to think that if someone no longer looks human, they will no longer behave human. And also That in order to be a person one must be human...

Will you still treat him like a 'person' when at the family christmass dinner he eats one of your other grandchildren?

... How would you react if one of your grandchildren killed someone? Would you still treat them as a person? Murder is murder.

If your crocodile-man behaves like an actual crocodile at all times(NB) then you don't put/allow him in situations where you would not normally allow crocodiles... Just like you wouldn't allow a psychopath to run a day care center.

Fratton Fred · 21-04-2009 01:08PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If a guy slept with a woman who was born a man he's going to be torn to shreds for the rest of his life if people find out. That doesn't apply to near the same extent as any of your scenarios.

They should say

should an ugly fat woman or man not sleep with a good looking man/woman because they know their mates will slag them over it??

javaboy · 21-04-2009 01:18PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

should an ugly fat woman or man not sleep with a good looking man/woman because they know their mates will slag them over it??

That's their own choice to make. If it's a fat ugly person, they can clearly see that and decide for themselves. In the case of a tg who doesn't tell their potential sexual partner, they haven't got the necessary info.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-04-2009 01:33PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

should an ugly fat woman or man not sleep with a good looking man/woman because they know their mates will slag them over it??

The man knows shes ugly and fat. And even so, the extent you'd get ripped into over a fat one is nothing compared to what would happen if you selpt with a transexual.

kayroo wrote:

You say any man would be "torn to shreds". What if a woman slept with a man who had been convicted of murder? If she were so inclined this could have a devastating affect upon her. It is her reaction, and not the actions of the person with whom she has slept, that determine the severity of her response.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Personal devestating effect isn't what I was arguing is the problem. Its the abuse someone would get after sleeping with a transexual. I don't think a woman would get that from her friends if she unknowingly slept with a convicted murderer.

MOH · 21-04-2009 01:57PM

"To think when we met you were so worried that you came from Iran"

Fratton Fred · 21-04-2009 02:16PM

javaboy wrote: »

That's their own choice to make. If it's a fat ugly person, they can clearly see that and decide for themselves. In the case of a tg who doesn't tell their potential sexual partner, they haven't got the necessary info.

go to temple Bar at 3am. there are loads of people unable to make that observation

Snowie · 21-04-2009 02:38PM

So you end up with a trans gender former man now woman and you sleep with her ? it ? him ?

I feel pretty betrayed weird uncomfortable about it if i had'nt been told, Id still find it hard to go ok this guy she used to be a man now she's a woman...

Now Im going to sleep with her....

I dont think id be able to simply because well its all a bit strange really...

I've no problem with men wanting to be women or women wanting to be men. I do have a problem with the deceatfullness it could lead to...

plus men who want to be women tend to over do things.....

brianthebard · 21-04-2009 02:51PM

It all depends on whether they're hot or not tbh.

pisslips · 21-04-2009 03:00PM

I have to say, I scored a tranny once when I was very drunk and it was one of the worst experience of my life when I put my hand down.

If it had been transgendered and I had slept with it without knowing I would have felt like a rape victim.

Obviously the only reason it would choose not to tell you would be because it was trying to use you.

21-04-2009 03:39PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You're comparing apples and oranges. Personal devestating effect isn't what I was arguing is the problem. Its the abuse someone would get after sleeping with a transexual. I don't think a woman would get that from her friends if she unknowingly slept with a convicted murderer.

I am sorry but I had to laugh at this.

If you base all your decisions on the possible slagging your friends will give you following them then I worry for you, really I do.

Also, this "fat people can be identified visually but transgendered people can't" is just so silly as a line of argument.

I once again go back to my original point: how much information should a person give to another if they both simply want a one night stand? A transgendered person sees themselves as a woman or a man depending on their circumstance. Do you tell people before you sleep with them your gender? Of course not.

You would almost swear from this thread that Ireland is awash with transgendered whores roaming the streets in search of men to have sex with.

Also @ pisslips. I had to laugh at your rape comment. It is the most childish thing I've read so far.

javaboy · 21-04-2009 03:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I am sorry but I had to laugh at this.

If you base all your decisions on the possible slagging your friends will give you following them then I worry for you, really I do.

Nobody said anything about basing all their decisions on the possibility of their friends slagging them. It's just one factor. For some people it might be enough to tip the balance. Anyway, their decision making process is their own business.

Also, this "fat people can be identified visually but transgendered people can't" is just so silly as a line of argument.

How so? If I don't ever want to sleep with a fat+ugly person, I won't. Because I can see them. If I don't ever want to sleep with a TG, I need them to tell me.

I once again go back to my original point: how much information should a person give to another if they both simply want a one night stand? A transgendered person sees themselves as a woman or a man depending on their circumstance.

There are certain things that it's reasonable to tell people even before a one-night stand. I think given the large amount of people who would have an aversion to knowingly sleeping with a TG, it would definitely be among those things.

Do you tell people before you sleep with them your gender? Of course not.

Usually, you don't need to. It should be obvious. What's your point?

You would almost swear from this thread that Ireland is awash with transgendered whores roaming the streets in search of men to have sex with.

How did you pick that up from this thread?

Do transgendered people have a moral obligation to disclose their previous gender?

Comments