Poker and the tax man?

30something

RoundTower wrote: »

this is what I was getting at. If you are not employed and have no income (earned or unearned) then you don't have to make a tax return. Proceeds of gambling are not income.

I have to back-peddle. This is correct. Apologies to Ollieboy.

However, if you plonk you winnings in a bank and earn interest you then have to file a return if the interest earned over the year reaches a certain amount. At that point I think you have to disclose your poker winnings but the return will state it is not subject to tax.

cilldroichid

This might have changed in the meantime,but when i was on the dole in the eighties,i was advised that you had to sign on every week even if you were not entitled to receive a penny.I think it was to do with pension rights and traceability,as mentioned before in the thread if you pop up in 10 or 20 years time looking to claim anything,you will need proof of what you were at and how you were supporting yourself.

cooker3

Right so say your in position of playing poker, don't want to collect social welfare but just want to let them know your still alive. What should you do?

dK1NG

cooker3 wrote: »

Right so say your in position of playing poker, don't want to collect social welfare but just want to let them know your still alive. What should you do?

Why would you want to do such a thing?! :eek:

thedini

cooker3 wrote: »

Right so say your in position of playing poker, don't want to collect social welfare but just want to let them know your still alive. What should you do?

Without researching further (surely, there are some boards pros that should know) I would probably file nil tax returns/pay the minimum PRSI payment and thus be entitled to the Old-Age Contributory pension.

Grafter

cooker3 wrote: »

Right so say your in position of playing poker, don't want to collect social welfare but just want to let them know your still alive. What should you do?

In UK terms (and Ireland is very similar to UK in tax law) you "pay your stamp" UK=National Insurance, Ireland=PRSI to protect your future rights and entitlements, and declare yourself as economically inactive.

Earlier posters are correct that you don't have to post a tax return while simply employed, but once you complicate things and they ask you once for a return, you do have to do one every year.

Don't think I'm wrong about Ireland being any different, but apologies if I am.

thedini

Grafter wrote: »

In UK terms (and Ireland is very similar to UK in tax law) you "pay your stamp" UK=National Insurance, Ireland=PRSI to protect your future rights and entitlements, and declare yourself as economically inactive.

Earlier posters are correct that you don't have to post a tax return while simply employed, but once you complicate things and they ask you once for a return, you do have to do one every year.

Don't think I'm wrong about Ireland being any different, but apologies if I am.

I wouldn't see it as a complication tbh as you can file it online and only takes a few mins.

Grafter

thedini wrote: »

I wouldn't see it as a complication tbh as you can file it online and only takes a few mins.

Fair point and I don't disagree.

Just trying to clarify that once you (for whatever reason) do a tax return, you are in the system and have to do one every year forever (and before corrected I know there are exceptions to this)

thedini

Grafter wrote: »

Fair point and I don't disagree.

Just trying to clarify that once you (for whatever reason) do a tax return, you are in the system and have to do one every year forever (and before corrected I know there are exceptions to this)

Most people that file a tax return will have been obligated to register for self-assessment and of course then it is necessary to file a tax return each year. There aren't that many situations where it is necessary to file an income tax return on a once off basis( for income purposes) usually it's for claims etc.

Grafter

thedini wrote: »

Most people that file a tax return will have been obligated to reister for self-assessment and of course then it is necessary to file a tax return each year. There aren't that many situations where it is necessary to file an income tax return on a once off basis( for income purposes) usually it's for claims etc.

Jeez mate it's the early hours of Easter Sunday.

Clock off work for a bit

Treehouse72

NewApproach wrote: »

One thing i would say, is surely the gov't need to know you exist, i mean if your working and paying paye, or drawing the dole or whatever at least SW have you on record, but if you live off poker income, while having no dealings with revenue either way, it could become dodgy down the line. I mean in 20 years you just pop up out of nowhere in their eyes...

Haha, I think about this often. I like to see myself as a Henry Hill at the end of Goodfellas. And I worked abroad before coming home and playing poker, so I really am totally, totally lost to Staite na Mother hEireann. Sweet.

..

On the tax return thing, my dad is retired self-emlployed who lives off his state pension and the interest on some savings, so he has no tax liability other than DIRT which is taxed at source. And yet his accountant still makes him file a tax return. I asked my dad why he was doing this and he said he'd ask his accountant. No answer back yet. Seems somewhat similar to our circumstance as poker players.

Ollieboy

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Haha, I think about this often. I like to see myself as a Henry Hill at the end of Goodfellas. And I worked abroad before coming home and playing poker, so I really am totally, totally lost to Staite na Mother hEireann. Sweet.

..

On the tax return thing, my dad is retired self-emlployed who lives off his state pension and the interest on some savings, so he has no tax liability other than DIRT which is taxed at source. And yet his accountant still makes him file a tax return. I asked my dad why he was doing this and he said he'd ask his accountant. No answer back yet. Seems somewhat similar to our circumstance as poker players.

because his accountant charges him 150 to fill out two boxes every year.

latenia

It's needed if he's to reclaim the DIRT he pays. But yes, there's absolutely no need for him to have an accountant in his situation.

thedini

Ollieboy wrote: »

because his accountant charges him 150 to fill out two boxes every year.

an accountant wouldn't take a phonecall for €150 not to mention doing some work.

Ollieboy

thedini wrote: »

an accountant wouldn't take a phonecall for €150 not to mention doing some work.

well it was 10 years ago, but the firm I work for only charge 150 for a simple tax return, they might charge 10k for the accounts to get to that stage, but the form was cheap...lol

Suited

ElectraBlue wrote: »

If you are an Irish Citizen and not in full-time employment (other than poker playing of course!) you should be sign on for Jobseekers Allowance regardless if you are raking it in or a donk of the highest order!

You will be glad of it some day, plus the rent allowances, medical card, fuel allowance and household benefits (if you are on it long term that is) that you may also be entitled to.

As Ollie says, you will need a pension and some form of security when you are ill. infirm and unable to play or limited from playing in some other form... Nursing homes have a strict 9pm curfew afaik :rolleyes:

Please don't take this advice. I don't want to subsidise your poker playing

Zab

I'm going to have to revive this thread as this is something I think about every so often.

There's a few obvious questions here:

1) Do we need to pay tax on winnings/rakeback/bonus/whatever (ex something like sponsorship which is likely taxable depending on how it's structured)

2) Do we need to file a tax return declaring our poker winnings even if they are untaxed.

3) If we are no longer paying PRSI, is it going to be trouble trying to restart payments in order to get a contributory pension.

4) Has anybody tried to buy property with poker proceeds, and if so what did the revenue do?


My thoughts on these questions are:

1) No, this seems to be accepted by almost everybody but I have seen a couple of dissenting voices (when gambling is main/sole source of income)

2) I've read the entire thread and I still don't know the answer to this. I know the revenue can get pretty pissed over screwing this one up.

3) When I looked into this before, I couldn't see a category that we could pay PRSI under as a poker player and get a contributory pension. I concluded at the time that we'd need to do something else and pay PRSI in that category (self-employed etc, but you actually have to file income in the category to be eligible for it).

4) I haven't tried it.


Does anybody have better answers? Particularly for nos 2 and 3. If not, is anybody interested in getting together and paying a professional to answer them?

corkie123

Zab wrote: »

I'm going to have to revive this thread as this is something I think about every so often.

There's a few obvious questions here:

1) Do we need to pay tax on winnings/rakeback/bonus/whatever (ex something like sponsorship which is likely taxable depending on how it's structured)

NO I DONT THINK U WOULD BE PAYING TAX ON SPONSORSHIP

2) Do we need to file a tax return declaring our poker winnings even if they are untaxed.

U WILL IF U BOUGHT A HOUSE OR TWO FROM POKER WINNINGS THE INCOME FROM RENT WILL BE TAXABLE AND THERE IS YOUR ENTRY BACK TO THE FOLD


3) If we are no longer paying PRSI, is it going to be trouble trying to restart payments in order to get a contributory pension.

ANSWERED ABOVE IN 2

4) Has anybody tried to buy property with poker proceeds, and if so what did the revenue do?

WITH HAVING ALL WITHDRAWALS FROM SITES IN BANK STATEMENTS U SHOULD BE ALRIGHT BUT I HOPE U DO NOT HAVE ANY PAST BECAUSE CAB ARE NOT THE BEST TO BE GETTING CALLING TO YOUR DOOR :D

pok3rplaya

Zab wrote: »

I'm going to have to revive this thread as this is something I think about every so often.

There's a few obvious questions here:

1) Do we need to pay tax on winnings/rakeback/bonus/whatever (ex something like sponsorship which is likely taxable depending on how it's structured)

2) Do we need to file a tax return declaring our poker winnings even if they are untaxed.

3) If we are no longer paying PRSI, is it going to be trouble trying to restart payments in order to get a contributory pension.

4) Has anybody tried to buy property with poker proceeds, and if so what did the revenue do?


My thoughts on these questions are:

1) No, this seems to be accepted by almost everybody but I have seen a couple of dissenting voices (when gambling is main/sole source of income)

2) I've read the entire thread and I still don't know the answer to this. I know the revenue can get pretty pissed over screwing this one up.

3) When I looked into this before, I couldn't see a category that we could pay PRSI under as a poker player and get a contributory pension. I concluded at the time that we'd need to do something else and pay PRSI in that category (self-employed etc, but you actually have to file income in the category to be eligible for it).

4) I haven't tried it.


Does anybody have better answers? Particularly for nos 2 and 3. If not, is anybody interested in getting together and paying a professional to answer them?

So I contacted a tax lawyer about this stuff a while ago. I didn't ask about the other stuff but you definitely don't need to file tax returns if you're not earning taxable income.

Edit: Information below this point is confused and incorrect.
Also I went into the bank about setting up a pension the other day and I can't do it because I don't pay PRSI. Also I can't get registered to pay PRSI because I don't meed the requirements. I recommend you find out if you meet the requirements and start thinking about signing up for voluntary PRSI payments.

Zab

pok3rplaya wrote: »

So I contacted a tax lawyer about this stuff a while ago. I didn't ask about the other stuff but you definitely don't need to file tax returns if you're not earning taxable income.

Okay, that's great. This was definitely my biggest question.

Also I went into the bank about setting up a pension the other day and I can't do it because I don't pay PRSI. Also I can't get registered to pay PRSI because I don't meed the requirements. I recommend you find out if you meet the requirements and start thinking about signing up for voluntary PRSI payments.

You were trying to set up a ... PRSA? As far as I'm aware the only real difference beetween a commercial pension product and an investment product is tax relief. As we're not paying tax I'm not too sure there would be a point.

I'm looking to be eligible for a contributory state pension (meaning not means tested). Currently this is €225 pw, so it's certainly worth while. To be eligible you need:

1) To have averaged over 20 PRSI contributions per year since you first enterered the insurance system. This will be a while ago for me, and I've applied to get my PRSI history to find out exactly when. This is for the 225 pw, there are lower bands and also a higher one (230pw) that I'm likely already not eligible for (average 48+ contribs per year).

2) At least 520 paid contributions, of which only 260 may be voluntary contributions. 520 is 10 years of contributions. If you wish to make voluntary PRSI contributions you must apply to do so within 12 months of your last non-voluntary contribution (I've missed the boat on this one).

The relevant PRSI classes that are eligible for a contributory pension and possible for us seem to be class A (your normal PAYE worker) and class S (self employed). If you go for class S, there's a minimum annual contribution of €253. At <€500pw income, you pay 3% so to make the 253 you'd have to earn at least €163pw. So if, for instance, you did one hour of coaching every week at €170 per hour, filed a tax return and paid PRSI, that should cover it (and you'd be below the threshold for income tax). Although a lot of this paragraph is a little sketchy, as the source matter could be interpreted in different ways or I could be missing huge tracts of it.

I realize of course that retirement is a long way off and many things will change between now and then, both personally and the system.

Most information comes from citizensinformation and booklet SW14

pok3rplaya

Also by the way I should have said in my earlier post that the tax representative said that even though I don't have to file returns, I should send an email to the tax office anyway just to explain why I've dropped off the map so that if I do get a real life job later on the transition will go smoother.

pok3rplaya

Zab wrote: »

You were trying to set up a ... PRSA? As far as I'm aware the only real difference beetween a commercial pension product and an investment product is tax relief. As we're not paying tax I'm not too sure there would be a point.

Yeah sorry I confused myself. This is correct.

Zab wrote: »

I'm looking to be eligible for a contributory state pension (meaning not means tested). Currently this is €225 pw, so it's certainly worth while. To be eligible you need:

1) To have averaged over 20 PRSI contributions per year since you first enterered the insurance system. This will be a while ago for me, and I've applied to get my PRSI history to find out exactly when. This is for the 225 pw, there are lower bands and also a higher one (230pw) that I'm likely already not eligible for (average 48+ contribs per year).

2) At least 520 paid contributions, of which only 260 may be voluntary contributions. 520 is 10 years of contributions. If you wish to make voluntary PRSI contributions you must apply to do so within 12 months of your last non-voluntary contribution (I've missed the boat on this one).

The relevant PRSI classes that are eligible for a contributory pension and possible for us seem to be class A (your normal PAYE worker) and class S (self employed). If you go for class S, there's a minimum annual contribution of €253. At <€500pw income, you pay 3% so to make the 253 you'd have to earn at least €163pw. So if, for instance, you did one hour of coaching every week at €170 per hour, filed a tax return and paid PRSI, that should cover it (and you'd be below the threshold for income tax). Although a lot of this paragraph is a little sketchy, as the source matter could be interpreted in different ways or I could be missing huge tracts of it.

I realize of course that retirement is a long way off and many things will change between now and then, both personally and the system.

Most information comes from citizensinformation and booklet SW14

Yeah this stuff is too far off for me to need to think about right now. If I get a job by 35 ( 24 now) I should be covered on all the requirements for the state pension.

Ollieboy

pok3rplaya wrote: »

Edit: Information below this point is confused and incorrect.
Also I went into the bank about setting up a pension the other day and I can't do it because I don't pay PRSI. Also I can't get registered to pay PRSI because I don't meed the requirements. I recommend you find out if you meet the requirements and start thinking about signing up for voluntary PRSI payments.

This makes no sense. Anyone can set up a pension, but if your not paying tax you won't get the benefit of tax relief etc. I think you were talking to a 1/2 wit.

Remember a pension is only a investment vehicle so you can set these up any way you want, a pension fund wouldn't suit you as your not paying tax etc, but you can set up a investment portfolie or other type of investment plans etc.

Go to askaboutmoney forum and get in touch with a investment agent etc, don't go to the banks as they haven't got a clue at the retail side. They just offer standard products.

Ollieboy

Zab wrote: »

I'm going to have to revive this thread as this is something I think about every so often.

There's a few obvious questions here:

1) Do we need to pay tax on winnings/rakeback/bonus/whatever (ex something like sponsorship which is likely taxable depending on how it's structured)

2) Do we need to file a tax return declaring our poker winnings even if they are untaxed.

3) If we are no longer paying PRSI, is it going to be trouble trying to restart payments in order to get a contributory pension.

4) Has anybody tried to buy property with poker proceeds, and if so what did the revenue do?


My thoughts on these questions are:

1) No, this seems to be accepted by almost everybody but I have seen a couple of dissenting voices (when gambling is main/sole source of income)

2) I've read the entire thread and I still don't know the answer to this. I know the revenue can get pretty pissed over screwing this one up.

3) When I looked into this before, I couldn't see a category that we could pay PRSI under as a poker player and get a contributory pension. I concluded at the time that we'd need to do something else and pay PRSI in that category (self-employed etc, but you actually have to file income in the category to be eligible for it).

4) I haven't tried it.


Does anybody have better answers? Particularly for nos 2 and 3. If not, is anybody interested in getting together and paying a professional to answer them?

1. you dont need to pay tax on any gambling winnings from poker, but I think you could be liable for paying tax on sponsorship or any gifts of buy-ins etc. Also money earn from coaching would be taxable, but remember most people would have enough tax credits to cover any liability etc.

2. no taxable income, no need to fill in a return. If you want to keep a record of your tax returns with the revenue you can send them a 0 tax liablity tax return, but this might create a reg flag.

3. Dont see why this would be a problem.

4. I'm guessing unless you have a million in cash you won't get a mortage from anyone. Any bank that gave mortages to professional gambles shouldn't be in business as they dont have a recurring income etc and no insurance for loss of income etc.

As for the revenue, they would have no interest in you buying property. They might ask you were the proceeds to fund the property came from and once you can back this up your fine.

I'm sure other people will have more expierence of this but this would be my view point.

Zab

pok3rplaya wrote: »

Yeah this stuff is too far off for me to need to think about right now. If I get a job by 35 ( 24 now) I should be covered on all the requirements for the state pension.

Looks like you're correct here. If you entered insurance when you were 18 then you'd be in it for 47 years total. If you want to get the upper band then you'd need 47*20=940 contributions, or a little over 18 years working full time. Which means you could leave it even later than 35, and this doesn't even include your past contributions. Again, I'm not an expert so I'll have to check this with a more specific forum.

That said, if I was eligible to pay voluntary contribs right now (<12 months since last employment), I would certainly do so.

Zab

Ollieboy wrote: »

1. you dont need to pay tax on any gambling winnings from poker, but I think you could be liable for paying tax on sponsorship or any gifts of buy-ins etc. Also money earn from coaching would be taxable, but remember most people would have enough tax credits to cover any liability etc.

Yeah, seems to gel with what everybody is saying. I agree on the sponsorship side, but my "ex sponsorship" actually meant excluding as I don't have sponsorship and don't plan on.

2. no taxable income, no need to fill in a return. If you want to keep a record of your tax returns with the revenue you can send them a 0 tax liablity tax return, but this might create a reg flag.

Does a nil tax return have to disclose non-taxable gambling winnings?

4. I'm guessing unless you have a million in cash you won't get a mortage from anyone. Any bank that gave mortages to professional gambles shouldn't be in business as they dont have a recurring income etc and no insurance for loss of income etc.

As for the revenue, they would have no interest in you buying property. They might ask you were the proceeds to fund the property came from and once you can back this up your fine.

I'm sure other people will have more expierence of this but this would be my view point.

Well, if I had a million in cash I'd just buy a place outright, and in fact buying a place at least largely outright would be the idea (albeit not now and not for a million!). I guess the question was more that, if you do come up with a large sum of cash to buy a house (thus appearing on the revenue radar) is it not virtually guaranteeing yourself an audit?

Ollieboy

Zab wrote: »

Does a nil tax return have to disclose non-taxable gambling winnings?



Well, if I had a million in cash I'd just buy a place outright, and in fact buying a place at least largely outright would be the idea (albeit not now and not for a million!). I guess the question was more that, if you do come up with a large sum of cash to buy a house (thus appearing on the revenue radar) is it not virtually guaranteeing yourself an audit?

You dont have to disclose non-taxable income. Gambling is not the only time of income thats exempted.

If you buy a house with cash, the revenue might audit you. But you just need to prove where the money came from. This would be part of the Laundry Act recently in relation to drug gangs etc.

pok3rplaya

Ollieboy wrote: »

This makes no sense. Anyone can set up a pension, but if your not paying tax you won't get the benefit of tax relief etc. I think you were talking to a 1/2 wit.

Remember a pension is only a investment vehicle so you can set these up any way you want, a pension fund wouldn't suit you as your not paying tax etc, but you can set up a investment portfolie or other type of investment plans etc.

Go to askaboutmoney forum and get in touch with a investment agent etc, don't go to the banks as they haven't got a clue at the retail side. They just offer standard products.

Hence the edit! What you have here is correct.

karpov33

Dont worry about pensions all private ones are fuked >If you have spare cash put it into a private deposit fund . Blow ur money while you can you will be dead long enough

poker--addict

sign on....:D
nothin to lose by doing so...
someone in ur house is probably working...and getting ripped off by goverment...so just get some of it back