Poker and the tax man?

strewelpeter

NickyOD wrote: »

Actualy it's €205 a week now and that was clearly a satirical article on the state of the countries employment crisis, not a true reflection of my own situation. I don't claim the full dole and I don't earn €500 a week tax free on the side, but I know plenty of people who do and to be honest I don't blame them one bit.

Clearly I was writing of the general case earlier and as I said if the cap fits, wear it.
I'm sure you noticed the many posts on BBV that referred to you personally but yet you choose to take up against a remark I made here about the general case that was not as you think specifically about you. ( I think someone may have used the same words on BBV)

You refer to your recent blog post and say that it is clearly satirical, now I wasn't exactly an A student in english but I do read a lot and kind of thought I had a handle on what makes up satire. Can anyone point out any satirical elements in this?

Everyone has a breaking point, a point where they no longer hold the moral fibre to resist doing something wrong for financial gain. With me, my patience ran out with the current recession, which from here on in this blog won't be discussed a whole lot because simply whispering the "R" word seems to make people physically and mentally unwell.

I signed on the dole for the first time in my life at the age of 30 in December 2008 and hey presto two months later I get a letter saying there's €1500 waiting for me in the local post office. Wa Hey!! Money for nothing! Why didn't I think of doing this before? Not only that but the government are giving me another €197 EVERY WEEK to continue doing nothing. What a great country we live in.

Unfortunately €197 isn't really enough for me to survive on so it's a good thing that like most other people I know who also draw the dole I actually have a part time job where I earn a further €400-€500 a week tax free. So much for the recession!

The way I see it, I'm claiming this money back from the government since I was a regular PRSI contributor for 10 years, and they decided not to spend that money in a way that benefited me or in any way that I approve of, so I'd like my money back please!

It's a dog eat dog world. I've got bills to pay and I'm planning on going back to college in September which, should the government re-introduce college fees, might not happen for me at all so I've got to do whatever I can not just to survive, but to succeed and achieve the things that I want to do with my life, Like most people in this country we're fighting a constant battle against a laughably incompetent government and if illegally claiming the dole is what you have to do to help achieve your goals then so be it. When it comes to morality, the truth is I'm simply following the government's lead.

Some lame irony perhaps, plenty of cliche, and some pretentious sub Anthony Robbins drivel about achieving goals but no satire that I can discern.

If you have not claimed the 1700+ you asserted that you recieved while you were not actually actively seeking employment or while earning money from your various part time occupations then fair play. I've said here what I think of anyone who dips their hand into my pocket and takes the money I worked hard for and if you're not that type of person then good on you, if you are you are thats between you your self respect the Department and the law.

As regards my comment above I see no moral line that cuts off between legality and entitlement, when some drug dealer who earns 4 - 500 a week dealing claims jobseekers it is just as wrong as it is for anyone, including poker players, who have non taxable income to play the system.

Your attitude is offensive to me, you say that I might look foolish, LOL that would be nothing new for me I'll take the risk of looking even more stupid in offering you some advice like the 'oul lad I almost am.
I've read lots of from you over the years and I've met and played with you you on a couple of occasions and I thought that in person you were quite impressive and a sound lad, so I hope you don't mind if I say to you:
Would you ever cop on and grow a bit of self respect for yourself.

If the post is lies then take it down. If you are looking for a job as plenty including my own children are then accept what ever assistance the state can give you in getting one. If you can earn money teaching poker, reporting for pokernews, playing poker or doing whatever you can do then do it but don't pretend that you are entitled to act illegaly because of the actions of the government and go boasting and bragging to the poker community about it.
Good Luck
Tony

RoundTower

btw if you don't win money playing poker, but like to keep up the appearance that you do, then it's a bit less scumbaggy to draw the dole imo. Still a bit scumbaggy if you aren't actually looking for work, but not as bad.

pok3rplaya

30something wrote: »

Eh? We have a self assessment tax regime. Everyone is legally obliged to make a tax return even if the return states you earned no taxable income. You can be prosecuted for failing to make tax returns.

How sure are you that this is correct?

zonic man

Well guys thanks for yer insight,as it happens i did try to sign on 2 years ago as i wanted to cover myself in some way,i was means tested and told i would'nt receive any support which was totally fine by me.I was then told by a friend of mine that i could still sign on to receive credits,which i did for a month or so,but belive this or not call me a lazy bastard i had to be there every thursday before 12.00,which was ok for awhile.My working day starts at nine at night and finishs at 5,6am and just got to much for me i soon hit that on the head.
Well just glad to here that i'am breaking no laws and thanks again for yer input.

Ollieboy

30something wrote: »

Eh? We have a self assessment tax regime. Everyone is legally obliged to make a tax return even if the return states you earned no taxable income. You can be prosecuted for failing to make tax returns.

incorrect.

Ace2007

5starpool wrote: »

If you are on the dole you should be actively looking for a job as far as I am concerned. You should not ever sign on to supplement poker income and not look for a job imo, as this would amount to fraud in my book.

maybe we should do what some chaps did to gary(with the everest yoke) - send their names to the people in charge of the dole, telling them xyz is playing poker making €x amount - payin no tax and also claiming the dole and see what happens.

After all - aren't we encouraged to report people like this as they are basically takin money that they shouldn't be.

NickyOD

strewelpeter wrote: »

Clearly I was writing of the general case earlier and as I said if the cap fits, wear it.
I'm sure you noticed the many posts on BBV that referred to you personally but yet you choose to take up against a remark I made here about the general case that was not as you think specifically about you. ( I think someone may have used the same words on BBV)

You refer to your recent blog post and say that it is clearly satirical, now I wasn't exactly an A student in english but I do read a lot and kind of thought I had a handle on what makes up satire. Can anyone point out any satirical elements in this?

Some lame irony perhaps, plenty of cliche, and some pretentious sub Anthony Robbins drivel about achieving goals but no satire that I can discern.

If you have not claimed the 1700+ you asserted that you recieved while you were not actually actively seeking employment or while earning money from your various part time occupations then fair play. I've said here what I think of anyone who dips their hand into my pocket and takes the money I worked hard for and if you're not that type of person then good on you, if you are you are thats between you your self respect the Department and the law.

As regards my comment above I see no moral line that cuts off between legality and entitlement, when some drug dealer who earns 4 - 500 a week dealing claims jobseekers it is just as wrong as it is for anyone, including poker players, who have non taxable income to play the system.

Your attitude is offensive to me, you say that I might look foolish, LOL that would be nothing new for me I'll take the risk of looking even more stupid in offering you some advice like the 'oul lad I almost am.
I've read lots of from you over the years and I've met and played with you you on a couple of occasions and I thought that in person you were quite impressive and a sound lad, so I hope you don't mind if I say to you:
Would you ever cop on and grow a bit of self respect for yourself.

If the post is lies then take it down. If you are looking for a job as plenty including my own children are then accept what ever assistance the state can give you in getting one. If you can earn money teaching poker, reporting for pokernews, playing poker or doing whatever you can do then do it but don't pretend that you are entitled to act illegaly because of the actions of the government and go boasting and bragging to the poker community about it.
Good Luck
Tony

So basically I have to go into the details of my personal life just to avoid getting further abuse on a public forum from you and the people you've influenced jumping on bandwagon?

I claimed the full dole for 4 months during a period where I wasn't playing any poker and was absolutely seeking work. I also never claimed for the first 2 years I played for a living.

After I first claimed there was an assessment period where the SW office went through my accounts to see how I'd been making a living for 6 months previous. I had to disclose all the info in my curent and neteller accounts.

Then I began working part time. For the first month I didn't declare this because I seriously needed the money but now as I'm working 2 or 3 days a week and I claim for the other days. I am back playing poker but it is very infrequently and I don't declare it as income and legally I'm not required to.

The fact that you think this somehow effects you shows you have no understanding of the SW system. If you don't have sufficient PRSI stamps paid you do not get the dole. Since I paid PRSI for 10 years these are MY contributions I am getting back, not money from your pocket or anyone elses.

Obviously the blog article backfired. It was meant to be a jibe at the current recession and although it is a reflection of true life in this country it's not my life.

Last month at the SW office I saw six people I knew and five of them are defintiely employed full time. Two are taxi drivers working at leat 50 hours a week, but they are clearly still struggling and unlike me they have mortgages and families to look after. I sympathise completely with their situation and wouldn't begrudge them the money one bit.

aya14

NickyOD wrote: »

So basically I have to go into the details of my personal life just to avoid getting further abuse on a public forum from you and the people you've influenced jumping on bandwagon?

I claimed the full dole for 4 months during a period where I wasn't playing any poker and was absolutely seeking work. I also never claimed for the first 2 years I played for a living.

After I first claimed there was an assessment period where the SW office went through my accounts to see how I'd been making a living for 6 months previous. I had to disclose all the info in my curent and neteller accounts.

Then I began working part time. For the first month I didn't declare this because I seriously needed the money but now as I'm working 2 or 3 days a week and I claim for the other days. I am back playing poker but it is very infrequently and I don't declare it as income and legally I'm not required to.

The fact that you think this somehow effects you shows you have no understanding of the SW system. If you don't have sufficient PRSI stamps paid you do not get the dole. Since I paid PRSI for 10 years these are MY contributions I am getting back, not money from your pocket or anyone elses.

Obviously the blog article backfired. It was meant to be a jibe at the current recession and although it is a reflection of true life in this country it's not my life.

Last month at the SW office I saw six people I knew and five of them are defintiely employed full time. Two are taxi drivers working at leat 50 hours a week, but they are clearly still struggling and unlike me they have mortgages and families to look after. I sympathise completely with their situation and wouldn't begrudge them the money one bit.

Afaik this part is incorrect they just use different terms like Jobseekers benefit and Jobseekers allowance. Totally agree your personal details should not be on a public forum, however when you write about it in your blog(which is available for all to see),what do you expect to happen?

strewelpeter

NickyOD wrote: »

So basically I have to go into the details of my personal life just to avoid getting further abuse on a public forum from you and the people you've influenced jumping on bandwagon?

You don't have to do anything for me, I couldn't give a toss about you personally. You are the one who came on public forums running your mouth about how you have no sympathy for public servants who have to pay high taxes. Later you are on about how cheats should be named and shamed so if you are going to be a slimy hypocrite in a conversation that I'm involved in then I am going to point at you and laugh. Thats all I've been doing.

If what you say now is true and what you said earlier was lies then fine end of story.

NickyOD

strewelpeter wrote: »

You don't have to do anything for me, I couldn't give a toss about you personally. You are the one who came on public forums running your mouth about how you have no sympathy for public servants who have to pay high taxes. Later you are on about how cheats should be named and shamed so if you are going to be a slimy hypocrite in a conversation that I'm involved in then I am going to point at you and laugh. Thats all I've been doing.

If what you say now is true and what you said earlier was lies then fine end of story.

Clearly, you do give a toss and I have twinged a nerve somewhere. I'm not sure why but, why else would go out of your way to give me such abuse here? Maybe someone needs to give you a hug and calm you down a bit.

I said I had no sympathy for public servants because I used to be one of those public servants and guess what, private sector workers pay high taxes too! Shock horror.

You took the opportunity to put me in the same category as online poker cheats and multi-accounters. I don't really see how you can justify that comparison or how calling them cheats makes me a hypcrite.

NickyOD

aya14 wrote: »

Afaik this part is incorrect they just use different terms like Jobseekers benefit and Jobseekers allowance. Totally agree your personal details should not be on a public forum, however when you write about it in your blog(which is available for all to see),what do you expect to happen?

Correct. JB is for people who have enough PRSI contributions paid. JA is payment who do not have enough stamps paid and is based on their weekly means.

Treehouse72

Yeah, really confused by all this talk of PRSI stamps and tax and pensions and all that stuff. My understanding in bald terms is this:

You do not need stamps or tax contributions or PRSI contributions or whatever to be entitled to either a dole payment nor a pension.

The only differences between these "entitlements" is that if you have not made contributions then you are means tested for both, and they are called something different (JSA v JSB, Contrbutory pension v Non-contributory pension). The payments in either case are essentially the same amount.

BTW, I was disgusted when I first read Nicky's comments, but on second viewing I think it's pretty clearly meant to be satirical.

strewelpeter

NickyOD wrote: »

Clearly, you do give a toss and I have twinged a nerve somewhere. I'm not sure why but, why else would go out of your way to give me such abuse here?

Like I said three times already, in this thread I was talking about the general case and not you in particular. I have no problem stating what I think of anyone who who cheats the welfare system, the tax system or cheats at poker, its all much the same to me.
By my standards I haven't been at all harsh on you, believe me if you were someone I cared about you'd have felt real venom.

30something

ollieboy wrote:

You dont need to make any returns for tax if your winnings are poker.

30something wrote: »

Eh? We have a self assessment tax regime. Everyone is legally obliged to make a tax return even if the return states you earned no taxable income. You can be prosecuted for failing to make tax returns.

ollieboy wrote:

incorrect.

Sure what would I know?

Beware of Section 951 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 ...

I have defended dozens of people on charges of failing to file Income Tax Returns. There is no defence. One can only mitigate the charge by filing the Return (usually a nil Return). The Courts usually only impose a fine at that point. If there is Tax Payable then there is every chance of a prison sentance.

Weren't Slab Murphy and Ciaran Haughey famously convicted for failing to file Tax Returns?

Why not Google "Failing to File Tax Returns" and see how many prosecutions there have been.

https://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/sep/21/people-convicted-in-the-district-court-of-failing-/

https://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/sep/21/they-fought-the-law-and-the-law-won/

I much prefer your poker advice!

thedini

30something wrote: »

Sure what would I know?

Beware of Section 951 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 ...

I have defended dozens of people on charges of failing to file Income Tax Returns. There is no defence. One can only mitigate the charge by filing the Return (usually a nil Return). The Courts usually only impose a fine at that point. If there is Tax Payable then there is every chance of a prison sentance.

Weren't Slab Murphy and Ciaran Haughey famously convicted for failing to file Tax Returns?

Why not Google "Failing to File Tax Returns" and see how many prosecutions there have been.

https://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/sep/21/people-convicted-in-the-district-court-of-failing-/

https://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/sep/21/they-fought-the-law-and-the-law-won/

I much prefer your poker advice!

I was just disagreeing with your fleeting statement that everybody is legally obliged to file tax returns. Of course if you are a 'chargeable person' then of course you have to file returns. Is a poker player a chargeable person? If I have time I will check it out later, but if you know kindly advise thanks.

Treehouse72

Would be very nice to get it clarified whether tax returns are compulsory even if they report zero taxable income. Jail would be -EV for me.

FWIW, a search for "poker" on Revenue returns zero results and a "gambling" search has 28 returns, but none look particularly applicable that I can see:

http://www.revenue.ie/revsearch/search.jsp


I think a phone call to Revenue on Tuesday is in order unless there's someone here who can be definitive.

RoundTower

PAYE workers don't have to file their own tax returns, right?

thedini

RoundTower wrote: »

PAYE workers don't have to file their own tax returns, right?

no, unless they have other sources of income etc etc.

RoundTower

thedini wrote: »

no, unless they have other sources of income etc etc.

I just want to see 30something's opinion on this question given his position that ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE must file a tax return.

Ollieboy

thedini wrote: »

I was just disagreeing with your fleeting statement that everybody is legally obliged to file tax returns. Of course if you are a 'chargeable person' then of course you have to file returns. Is a poker player a chargeable person? If I have time I will check it out later, but if you know kindly advise thanks.

I would agree with this and hence why the prev statement is totally wrong. If your a chargeable person or have other income like investments that don't get tax at source, than your required to make a return under the rules of self assessment.

People that don't comply with the self assessment when they do have other income can than be charge with the above offences.

Thats what I remember from my tax studies, but thats nearly 10 years ago now, must go back to it...

Ollieboy

Heres one for everyone to discuss.

I believe and I'm stating I believe that the following would be taxable:

1. Rakeback. This is not winnings. So is it taxable and as its recurring it could come under the income area.

2. Sponsorship. Again this would be like a gift, so again its taxable.

I would be interest to know if anyone as check these points out. Rakeback could go either way, but sponsorship is defo taxable.

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote: »

I would agree with this and hence why the prev statement is totally wrong. If your a chargeable person or have other income like investments that don't get tax at source, than your required to make a return under the rules of self assessment.

People that don't comply with the self assessment when they do have other income can than be charge with the above offences.

Thats what I remember from my tax studies, but thats nearly 10 years ago now, must go back to it...

this is what I was getting at. If you are not employed and have no income (earned or unearned) then you don't have to make a tax return. Proceeds of gambling are not income.

KoRn101

strewelpeter wrote: »

Not only do you get tax free income, you can claim the dole as well, if you happen to be a low life scumbag.

How fitting for the current situation!

KoRn101

Anyway, i cant see how income from gambling can be taxed by Irish government if within Ireland gambling is essentially illegal..

corkie123

Ollieboy wrote: »

Heres one for everyone to discuss.

I believe and I'm stating I believe that the following would be taxable:

1. Rakeback. This is not winnings. So is it taxable and as its recurring it could come under the income area.

is money paid for a service which u get a % back so not taxable as its your money from the start

2. Sponsorship. Again this would be like a gift, so again its taxable.

now this could be and a interesting point

NewApproach

One thing i would say, is surely the gov't need to know you exist, i mean if your working and paying paye, or drawing the dole or whatever at least SW have you on record, but if you live off poker income, while having no dealings with revenue either way, it could become dodgy down the line. I mean in 20 years you just pop up out of nowhere in their eyes...

Ste05

KoRn101 wrote: »

Anyway, i cant see how income from gambling can be taxed by Irish government if within Ireland gambling is essentially illegal..

I'll bite :rolleyes:

Huh???

5starpool

Ste05 wrote: »

I'll bite :rolleyes:

Huh???

I presume he means casinos operating in a grey area rather than all gambling including bookies etc. At least I hope he does.

dK1NG

KoRn101 wrote: »

Anyway, i cant see how income from gambling can be taxed by Irish government if within Ireland gambling is essentially illegal..

Even if gambling were illegal, that would not stop the revenue commrs -



Cut+paste:

Traditionally, profits derived from illegal trading were not taxable in Ireland. In Hayes v Duggan ,
the former Supreme Court held that profits which derived from a criminal enterprise were not
liable to income tax, on the basis that the State could not be seen to tolerate and share in the
profits of crime. [19] If such profits were liable to tax, then the criminal law would be breached at
each stage of the tax process, given that the accused would be obliged to furnish tax returns to
the officer who would be prevented from disclosing the information to the law enforcement
officers. Although Hayes was rejected by the English courts in Mann v Nash , [20] it was followed
by the Irish High Court in Collins v Mulvey , [21] and remained settled law in Ireland until the
early 1980s.
The prohibition on taxing illegal earnings in Hayes was altered statutorily by s.19 of the Finance
Act 1983 . Support for this development was expressed in the Dáil on the ground that the
“weapon” of the Revenue Commissioners would to be of great benefit in “clearing up some of the
big criminal operators” and “putting them out of business altogether”. [22] Nevertheless, it was
stated by a Fianna Fáil TD that “the very idea of putting such a provision in legislation seems to
suggest an acceptance and blessing of such illegal activities” and instead, it was suggested that
all profits from illegal activities should be confiscated and that penalties should be imposed on
those carrying out the offences. [23] It is ironic, given such a comment, that Fianna Fáil
subsequently played a central rôle in the creation of a similar measure in the Criminal Assets
Bureau Act 1996 and in the enactment of the Proceeds of Crime Act 1996 . [24]
Section 19 has since been replaced by s.58 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 , which
provides that profits or gains shall be chargeable to tax even if the source is unknown or
unlawful. Such profits or gains are described euphemistically in the tax assessment as
“miscellaneous income”. Section 58 facilitates the tax assessment of an individual who is the
subject of a CAB investigation, notwithstanding that the source of his or her income or assets
may be unknown.

bobbly

that reminds me... i must pay my tax for 2008 :pac: