Earthquakes To Return To Europe

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

As said, what about all those people who believed (and I suppose many around the world who still do) that earthquakes, tsunamis and eruptions were random or the whim of a fickle deity? Or had no such technology and knowledge. Were they not ultimately innocent/ignorant people who were drowned by a (seemingly) uncaring God? There might be a lot of dominos before the one that squished them but at the start God set the chain in motion, knowing full well that the one at the end would crush a unknowing human being.

Edit: 8000th post, awesome.

If you were discussing this simply with theists, as opposed to Christians, then you might have a good point there. However, remember that we believe in the Fall. So mankind started with the knowledge that he needed to avoid earthquakes etc, but slid into ignorance through his own sin and disobedience.

Zillah

Not sure I'm quite following. I thought the fall was a moral fall? That before the fall we lived sinless and would all have gone straight to heaven upon death, but after the fall we separated ourselves from grace and now have to earn our way into heaven by accepting Jesus etc.

I'm not following how this relates to having the ability to avoid natural disasters? Do you mean to imply that Adam and Eve would have had some innate ability to avoid volcano eruptions that we no longer possess? And isn't living as a good Christian supposed to return one to such a state? (Assuming the first few seconds after confession/genuine praying for forgiveness)

And regardless of the exact nature of the fall, I have another thought. Does it strike you as fair that a human being today should be doomed to die in a collapsing building because of an inherited sin? That one should be considered guilt simply for being human? That sounds incredibly unfair.

Finally on this matter, what exactly was the fall if we're not taking Adam and Eve and the apple as literal occurences?

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

Not sure I'm quite following. I thought the fall was a moral fall? That before the fall we lived sinless and would all have gone straight to heaven upon death, but after the fall we separated ourselves from grace and now have to earn our way into heaven by accepting Jesus etc.

The fall was a moral decision by Adam and Eve that affected every aspects their lives, including their physical and intellectual capacities.

And a thousand times 'No' to any idea that we have to earn our way into heaven. The Christian hope is the Resurrection from the dead, not spending eternity in heaven, and this hope is a gift gained through faith in Christ, not earned by any works.

I'm not following how this relates to having the ability to avoid natural disasters? Do you mean to imply that Adam and Eve would have had some innate ability to avoid volcano eruptions that we no longer possess?

Adam and Eve had dominance and authority over the entire created order. I believe they certainly had intellectual capabilities that we can only dream about today. Also, they were in direct communication with God, so God could easily say, "Don't build a city over there chaps, instead utilise the volcano for a nice environmentally friendly water-heating system."

And isn't living as a good Christian supposed to return one to such a state? (Assuming the first few seconds after confession/genuine praying for forgiveness)

I don't believe so, but I'm no expert on what Catholics believe about confession. Maybe you should PM Pamela and ask her?

And regardless of the exact nature of the fall, I have another thought. Does it strike you as fair that a human being today should be doomed to die in a collapsing building because of an inherited sin?

No, but then most things in life don't seem fair to me. For example, I don't think it's fair that we are able to sit in comparative comfort and discuss stuff on the internet while others are struggling to feed themselves. Yet that happens because we inherited stuff from previous generations.

Finally on this matter, what exactly was the fall if we're not taking Adam and Eve and the apple as literal occurences?

That depends on your point of view. If you accept evolutionary theory then, wherever you draw the line, there were the first people who were human rather than pre-human. Call them Adam and Eve.

Or, alternatively, there were the first people into whom God imbued a spirit. Call them Adam and Eve if you want.

Either way, it is Christian belief that these people had a moral nature and a level of communication with God that was screwed up by their disobedience and sin.

Zillah

I can't count the questions and issues that raises but to avoid a spiral of ever increasingly massive posts I'll just focus on this bit:

PDN wrote: »

No, but then most things in life don't seem fair to me. For example, I don't think it's fair that we are able to sit in comparative comfort and discuss stuff on the internet while others are struggling to feed themselves. Yet that happens because we inherited stuff from previous generations.

But those things are caused by humans and their freewill, even from a Christian point of view. But when we talk about original sin, is that not God's doing? He's the one who created the universe and apparently a mechanism by which sin passes from one generation to the next. Couldn't he, with but a wave of his hand, return humanity to a pre-fall state?

And if "That would violate freewill" is going to come into it, being forcibly saved is no more a violation of my freewill than having sin forcibly thrust upon me at conception.

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

I can't count the questions and issues that raises but to avoid a spiral of ever increasingly massive posts I'll just focus on this bit:



But those things are caused by humans and their freewill, even from a Christian point of view. But when we talk about original sin, is that not God's doing? He's the one who created the universe and apparently a mechanism by which sin passes from one generation to the next. Couldn't he, with but a wave of his hand, return humanity to a pre-fall state?

And if "That would violate freewill" is going to come into it, being forcibly saved is no more a violation of my freewill than having sin forcibly thrust upon me at conception.

It was also a violation of my free will for me to be born male, for me not to be born the child of a millionaire, and for me to be denied the same genes as Tom Cruise.

The fact is that we inherit loads of stuff from our parents. God, however, gives us a choice as to whether our lives will be dictated forever by our circumstances or whether we will choose life and salvation.

Zillah

PDN wrote: »

God, however, gives us a choice as to whether our lives will be dictated forever by our circumstances or whether we will choose life and salvation.

*Terms and Conditions Apply*



But you didn't answer my question. God could, if he wanted, wave his hand and return the entire human race to a pre-fall state. All this conflict and dobut is entirely unneccessary. If we're not going to argue freewill then why do you think he hasn't done that?

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

*Terms and Conditions Apply*



But you didn't answer my question. God could, if he wanted, wave his hand and return the entire human race to a pre-fall state. All this conflict and dobut is entirely unneccessary. If we're not going to argue freewill then why do you think he hasn't done that?

I don't know. I don't know why He created us in the first place either.

Zillah

Would the fact that he could do such a wonderful thing, coupled with the fact that you can't think of a reason that he doesn't, not cause you to doubt his intentions?

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

Would the fact that he could do such a wonderful thing, coupled with the fact that you can't think of a reason that he doesn't, not cause you to doubt his intentions?

No. I don't think God has to do everything in a way that suits me.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

No. I don't think God has to do everything in a way that suits me.

But it would make sense if god did everything in a way which was consistent with what you say about him.

Fanny Cradock

Zillah wrote: »

*Terms and Conditions Apply*



But you didn't answer my question. God could, if he wanted, wave his hand and return the entire human race to a pre-fall state.

Quickly hopping in here. I would be of the opinion that this will happen because it's part of what the Bible tells us of God's plan for creation.

daveharnett

Pamela111 wrote: »

Already to mark the "end of times" we have had the Tsunami which killed 350,000 in one of the most sinful parts of the world.

Why stop there Pamela? What about HIV and sodomites?

Thanks OP. Hateful stuff like this is right up there with the holocaust denials in terms of testing one's belief in free speech, but in some ways it is the most important kind of speech...

Sorry nevermind, I don't think I can finish that thought without getting personal.

DublinWriter

Pamela111 wrote: »

Sadly, as a result of the movement towards heresy and abondment of the simple rules agreed between Abraham and God, of which we are decendants the cup of Wrath will be spread more widespread.

"If you don't believe in God's Eternal love, then he will smite you down"....spot the paradox yet?