Would legalising weed slow the economic downturn?

Irishcrx

I'm just not going to bother reading the weed bashing through 6 pages as I've read it all before.

The short answer is yes it would create new business in the form of growers, grow sites, coffee shops the gards could be rediployed to deal with more serious crimes like rape, murder and hard drugs and crime might even fall a little bit for once. And if the government were sensible they could tax it at an affordable rate and gain extra revenue without forcing people to still buy it on the blackmarket.

drunkmonkey

Irishcrx wrote: »

it would create new business in the form of growers, grow sites

It already employs a lot of people in this country (i'd estimate at least 10,000, it's out number 1 crop, pity we import most of it), I don't think making it legal will create more employment, if anything it will cause more people to loose their jobs. You will see a lot of small time dealers go out of business as consumers start to move more to the respectable high street chains like StarBuds, Jamican Republic & Mac Bongalds.

I'm completly against tax or law on any kind of home grown produce not for resale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwfe5lH1n9Q

5starpool

You might as well have a thread on legalising genocide. It's not going to happen, so what's the point of talking about it?

DevilsBreath

ǝpnp puıɯ noʎ dılɟ ʇsnɾ ʎɐɯ ʇı

5starpool

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It already employs a lot of people in this country (i'd estimate at least 10,000, it's out number 1 crop, pity we import most of it), I don't think making it legal will create more employment, if anything it will cause more people to loose their jobs. You will see a lot of small time dealers go out of business as consumers start to move more to the respectable high street chains like StarBuds, Jamican Republic & Mac Bongalds.

I'm completly against tax or law on any kind of home grown produce not for resale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwfe5lH1n9Q

Thiis post is a level I assume? I hope so anyways. I can't view the youtube clip so if that is explaining why this post seems so silly then fair enough.

Queen-Mise

i am absolutely behind the legalizing of all drugs.

Take the money out of criminals and terrorists hands.

Create jobs, hand out contracts to honest/fair countries.

It would bring the most profitable illegal industry into tax net.

For an end note, the damage that these drugs do cannot be used as a reason not to leave them illegal, not when alcohol and cigs are legal.

Both of those kills tens of thousands more than drugs.

ScumLord

5starpool wrote: »

You might as well have a thread on legalising genocide. It's not going to happen, so what's the point of talking about it?

That's a very defeatist attitude. It's like giving up hope on the road and health systems.

daveharnett wrote: »

I'm going to attempt some rough figures. I wouldn't make much of the cost savings to the state - guards tend not to waste time on weed, and not much organised crime is funded primarily by it.

Your not taking into account tourists and all the side industries that it would create.

drunkmonkey

5starpool wrote: »

I can't view the youtube clip so if that is explaining why this post seems so silly then fair enough.

i think in the context of this debate everthings silly, we inherited some stupid laws, this is just another one of them...

el_tiddlero

efla wrote: »

Mortality figures are meaningless, marijuana use needs long term mental health and quality of life data for a reasonable assesment

just like we have for alcohol right?? pffffffffffttttttttt......

Irishcrx

Never going to happen? I don't know about that america are making leaps and bounds towards it and Obamha has stated before he is pro legal. But ireland maybe not at the moment we are a prude country and will only do things that make governments money not people happy.Thats not to say everyone would be happy with making it legal but in fairness I believe people have the right to smoke it, it is a plant for gods sake it's not artificially constructed in factories like most hard drugs are and the majority of smokers are peacefull people with no intent to harm, at least growing for personal comsumtion should be legal.

Leprachaun

*sigh* Maybe one day they'll legalise weed. It's a plant for god's sake. I should be allowed smoke what I like. I don't see why people think everyone who smokes the wacky tobaccy is a stoner/waster. Anyone I know who smokes are intelligent,hard working everyday people. It's better for you than alchahol and frankly it's absurd that it's illegal.

Dragan

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You see, it's like this,the fookin stoners would just love to have everyone in a state of so called euphoria.

Fookers forget one thing, if everybody was a stoner who would pay for the stoners upkeep??

Fookers need a balanced populace to support them, as they sure as fcuk can contribute nothing themselves.

Go figure;)

Probably the first time i have seen one of your posts that is not about poo, but you certainly managed to talk a pile of ****e.;)

generalmiaow

I'm all for legalising cannabis, even though I can't smoke it any more due to medical reasons, but it's impossible to predict whether it will be a good economic idea without looking at the whole thing from end to end. I'm no economist, but here are my thoughts, with the disclaimer that they are based totally on bits and pieces from newspapers and the like:

Currently, 16% of Cannabis in Ireland is grown here, the rest is imported from the general Iberian area (spain, morocco etc) by criminal gangs, by way of Holland/Belgium via the UK. I would assume that of that 16%, some of it is for personal use, but I would think the odd plant here and there is lost in a sea of what the tabloids call "cannabis factories".

- In the above, it looks like we're losing out on excise, VAT and giving money to gangs, which is used to buy handguns and 32-foot drug yachts. The trafficking of cannabis probably brings guns with it too. Winner, government.

The bulk of cannabis (I'm a bit out of the loop, but this is how it was in 2005) is soap bar, which is dirty, filthy hashish. This is very easy to bring around, but requires the use of tobacco to smoke in typical usage. In the Netherlands, since the tobacco smoking ban people have managed to smoke pure weed in the coffeeshops.
Among my peers, even those who have acquired the leaves and flowering tops, so to speak, of the plant, use tobacco because the weed is hard to come by.

- I would assume that post legalisation people would buy less tobacco for rolling joints, but would they consume more THC yearwise? Well, with the availabllity of "good quality" plant material in recent years, I haven't seen my peers smoke more, so I don't think they would. They have, however, also grown up and got jobs and so on, but in an evening, they don't go through the same number of hand-rolled cannabis cigarettes. I think the winner here is public health, by use of less actual smoking materials.

The way cannabis is distributed after it gets here is a mystery of sorts, the classic way of looking at it is that it goes from bigger fish to smaller fish and so on, and eventually goes to a mackerel, who gives almost usable quantities to a goldfish who either sells it to his minnows (who are sometimes personally known to him) at little profit or uses it himself.

- In a legalisation situation, all these fish are now out of work. However, the papers recently said that all these fish are on social welfare anyway, so we're either creating jobs and getting people off the dole, or getting tax revenue.
I'm sure some of them would swim off to different rivers of illegal stuff, and I accept the argument that if the price is too high, people won't pay it and use illegal cannabis instead, but the distribution system is based on the fact that cannabis is illegal. I think I would support measures to prevent large quantities of it being shifted around outside the system, even though they won't be any more effective than they are now (and when there is cannabis available, they have failed). Large scale domestic growing, on the other hand, would make drug smuggling into selling coal to Newcastle. The stems and fibrous parts of the plant have other uses, as mentioned, but this is already grown as industrial hemp. Winner, public finances.

The part I have no answer to is the minnow bit, what they call the last mile in telecommunication. If you want a tourism boost, create weed cafes, but smoking outside will make Dublin smell like weed all the time (the smell is far more apparent and long lasting than tobacco) - whether that is an improvement is up to you. I really doubt that weed tourism bringing people to Dublin is an argument that would convince the straights, it sounds more like a tabloid scare story. I have a feeling that the actual consumer tax take from weed will either be small due to people growing it and selling/giving it to their friends (perhaps I am naive here), or an Irish government will tax it to hell and ruin the whole thing.

I'd love somebody to run some numbers on this, because if the price of enforcing the regulatory aspect is over the price of raiding college students' apartments for a ten spot the whole thing is wrong. There's also Grainne "What would you know, you're only a pharmacologist" Kenny's argument that an extra burden is placed on the health service.

But I'm not an economist, I could be wrong. It doesn't matter to me anyway, I really believe Cannabis should never have been illegal. The productivity vs. spending all day smoking weed thing is hand-waving - you should have a look at Christian Fundamendalist forums where they say the same things about masturbation or dancing, or ask your granny what people said about TV back in the 50s. It's a simple case of

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts...

The economic thing comes up a lot, but I think it's a tactic used by cannabis smokers to try and express their loss of freedom in terms of a loss of revenue that appeals to more conservative types.

Sanjuro

A very close relative of mine is an alcoholic. And after seeing what that does, I can tell you now, I'd rather they were a stoner. Alcohol is by far a more destructive drug, yet it's readily available and hardly policed. Economic issues aside, it makes little sense to keep things the way they are.

generalmiaow

Sanjuro wrote: »

A very close relative of mine is an alcoholic. And after seeing what that does, I can tell you now, I'd rather they were a stoner. Alcohol is by far a more destructive drug, yet it's readily available and hardly policed. Economic issues aside, it makes little sense to keep things the way they are.

I agree being an alcoholic is much worse, though it remains to be seen that legalising cannabis will reduce the harm alcohol does. On the other hand, you would need posters like this:

Irishcrx

Very good points made in the two above. In my view it should be legal to grow for personal use anyway, absolutly absurt that people are told what plants they can and can't grow for THEMSELFS, on making it legal that would be the approach to go with and for medical use or course as I believe it is very helpfull to alot of illness that causes great pain and this has been reconised and used in countrys such as America so argueing that it doesn't won't fly anymore unless your just weed bashing.

I've known many alcholics through my family and they have destroyed there lives with it yet it's readily available for them to continue killing themselfs off the shelfs, on deals they practicly breed it into you and make this image of ireland as a great craic drinking nation while sweeping our abuse of it away.

Personally I don't drink much, hardly ever but I do enjoy a smoke on the evening when I can and the weekend, I also work very hard, have a great gf, a car and a mortgage, I play in two bands and sports does that class as a waster?Don't think so yet if I was caught smoking I'd be branded a criminal and convicted...senseless and it really does need to be sorted out even the gards don't take cannabis seriously they just have to because it is there job.

ScumLord

generalmiaow wrote: »

The part I have no answer to is the minnow bit, what they call the last mile in telecommunication. If you want a tourism boost, create weed cafes, but smoking outside will make Dublin smell like weed all the time (the smell is far more apparent and long lasting than tobacco) - whether that is an improvement is up to you.

This is only if you want to go down the road of having smoking cafes like in Amsterdam. Even if pigs did start flying across the sky I doubt the government would allow smoking indoors and even in Amsterdam smoking outdoors in public spaces is technically illegal (although rarely enforced).

The problem is easily solved by extending the smoking ban to include marachuan and not allowing smoking at all in public places. "coffeshops" could just provide vaporizers as standard or even restricting cannabis use to special restaurants, where the customers ordered a tray of special starters.

Ostrom

el_tiddlero wrote: »

just like we have for alcohol right?? pffffffffffttttttttt......

Yes, unfortunately

owya

ah such a bad idea!!! everyone of you would think so too if you seen how it destroyed someone close to you;imagine the state of us if it was legalised,do we not have enough crap available to us already to mess with our heads!i'd like to see what what your opinion is if you seen your best friend destroy their life because of weed;yes they had a job,yes they had friends and yes they only smoked ita few times a week and yes they are now f***kd because of it,ya such a stupid idea ,we'd end up with more overcrowding in hospitals coz we'd be suffering from more mental health issues .:mad:

5318008!

owya wrote: »

ah such a bad idea!!! everyone of you would think so too if you seen how it destroyed someone close to you;imagine the state of us if it was legalised,do we not have enough crap available to us already to mess with our heads!i'd like to see what what your opinion is if you seen your best friend destroy their life because of weed;yes they had a job,yes they had friends and yes they only smoked ita few times a week and yes they are now f***kd because of it,ya such a stupid idea ,we'd end up with more overcrowding in hospitals coz we'd be suffering from more mental health issues .:mad:

Obvious troll.

Back on topic.

The heydey of cannabis is over. All that's needed is some toxicology studies and government regualtion and then synthetic cannabinoids could replace it for good.

They'd be far healthier because you wouldn't have to inhale smoke or eat plant **** to get high and they'd be less addictive as people would be taking them orally (not that cannabis is that addictive to begin with).

I'm expecting a backlash from sentimental stoners, clutching at straws and picking out the tiniest most inconsequencial things as counter arguments.I'm not even going to bother. I've made my point.

generalmiaow

owya wrote: »

ah such a bad idea!!! everyone of you would think so too if you seen how it destroyed someone close to you;imagine the state of us if it was legalised,do we not have enough crap available to us already to mess with our heads!i'd like to see what what your opinion is if you seen your best friend destroy their life because of weed;yes they had a job,yes they had friends and yes they only smoked ita few times a week and yes they are now f***kd because of it,ya such a stupid idea ,we'd end up with more overcrowding in hospitals coz we'd be suffering from more mental health issues .:mad:

I am sorry about your friend.

I've experienced major health difficulties myself from the use of such substances which were very hard to overcome, involved months of mental horror, medication, unsympathetic attitudes and coping - and resulted in my not using them ever again for fear of a return - yet I still don't consider myself in a position to dictate what decisions people can and cannot make for themselves.

The fact is, no-one can predict what will happen when cannabis is legalised, but even after all I've been through I am certain - for anyone who has suffered because of drugs, the fact that it was illegal made no difference and only complicated the harm.

generalmiaow

5318008! wrote: »

Obvious troll.

Back on topic.

The heydey of cannabis is over. All that's needed is some toxicology studies and government regualtion and then synthetic cannabinoids could replace it for good.

They'd be far healthier because you wouldn't have to inhale smoke or eat plant **** to get high and they'd be less addictive as people would be taking them orally (not that cannabis is that addictive to begin with).

I'm expecting a backlash from sentimental stoners, clutching at straws and picking out the tiniest most inconsequencial things as counter arguments.I'm not even going to bother. I've made my point.

Why would you bother with synthetic cannabinoids? Why not just THC? Nobody's done any tox studies on the huffman series. THC is very non-toxic and extracting it from plants is very easy.

By the way, even if you're not going to bother responding to it , oral use of cannabinoids is problematic because there's no self-titration.

eyresquare

THC is meant to be bad for you in the long run.It affects your memory and concentration levels.If i got the chance to smoke illegal substances like weed or hashishe i wouldn't touch it.It should never be legalized.If it was legalized it would leave the whole country dumb and out of their minds all the time.Imagine going to your local supermarket and meeting all these drug users looking for their munchies with their red eyes and drowsey,out of their mind.Ireland wouldn't be able to put up with these type of people and it would male our country look awful.

Stop these terrible petitions now before it becomes too late and our great nation is ruined by these drug infectees

Armin_Tamzarian

eyresquare wrote: »

THC is meant to be bad for you in the long run.It affects your memory and concentration levels.If i got the chance to smoke illegal substances like weed or hashishe i wouldn't touch it.It should never be legalized.If it was legalized it would leave the whole country dumb and out of their minds all the time.Imagine going to your local supermarket and meeting all these drug users looking for their munchies with their red eyes and drowsey,out of their mind.Ireland wouldn't be able to put up with these type of people and it would male our country look awful.

Stop these terrible petitions now before it becomes too late and our great nation is ruined by these drug infectees

Yeah, everyone who smokes weed is a totally useless, out of shape,
waster, hippy type.

Like This Guy

5318008!

generalmiaow wrote: »

Why would you bother with synthetic cannabinoids? Why not just THC? Nobody's done any tox studies on the huffman series. THC is very non-toxic and extracting it from plants is very easy.

I was under the impression that people found pure thc to be dissappointing.

generalmiaow

5318008! wrote: »

I was under the impression that people found pure thc to be dissappointing.

True, but no more disappointing than the JWH-018 type things in "Spice" and so on. The only reason for their popularity is THC being illegal. Whatever gets vaporised in a vaporiser though, THC + cannabidol and whatever, seems to be good enough for people.

I agree with you in principle, by the way, and I don't subscribe to this "nature knows best" idea, (thanks for your third cold in three months nature!) but I don't know if oral cannabinoid tablets or even vaporised thc sprays would appeal to people as much as you're saying they do - apart from the obvious medicine things. People are still taking risks to buy and sell weed and headshops abroad have been unable to sell synthetic cannabinoid tablets despite their legality and the sudden availability of the chems. Thus I think the "heyday" of cannabis is not over.

Edit: What I mean is, I think the future will be THC/cannabidol or an anandamide analogue and used in portable vaporisers. This is going to sound even more ridiculous to your "sentimental stoners" - but just look at what's happening with electronic cigarettes and the huge multiplication of popularity there. It just seems to me though that keeping cannabis illegal once we could do the things I/you're talking about wouldn't make sense

g5fd6ow0hseima

the '1 plant rule' would go along way to reducing crime levels, therefore government expenditure would also decrease.

70% of drug seizures in Ireland in 2008 were comprised of cannabis, so its the country's biggest drug. If people were allowed grow their own, its only those posh coke snotring ***** who will be propping up the underworld.

We

Only responding to this because people are thanking you for your ridiculously ignorant post..

mumhaabu wrote: »

Your nick says upward spiral but I am inclined to believe that a downward spiral is all we would get if this was done. There is many other prohibited items and services that could be legalised and would bring in much more tax.

Want to explain why it would create a downward spiral? Do you actually have any justification to suggest such a thing? evidence? examples? statistics? ANYTHING?

Secondly, please give us an example of something different that could be legalized which is less harmful, more in demand and 'would bring in much more tax', just so we know that your post isn't a total brainfart, and has some thought behind it..

mumhaabu wrote: »

Knowing our Government if they did legalise pot they would tax it so high that the liberal left-wing hippy stoners who consume it would not be able to afford it on their dole and would still revert to illegal methods of procuring said substances:rolleyes:.

The fact that you suggest only 'left-wing hippy stoners' consume weed pretty much sums up your ignorance, your prejudice and your naivety.. Do you even realise that your rationale is the exact same as all the racists, bigots and anti-semites in this world, yet if someone called you one of these things you would probably deny it to the ground, right?

Seriously, I actually have no idea how you come up with this shíte.. What about cigarrettes and alcohol? Do the people who cant afford these things 'revert to illegal methods' to get them? Is this common place?

bleh :mad:

For the record, I have no real opinion on this matter. No, I'm not a big consmer of weed, neither am I totally against the idea of legalizing it, I just don't like people talking out of their hole, especially when they get support and agreement from other people..

In my opinion, unless somebody can provide some reliable statistics and expected 'return of income' for the legalization of weed, thus allowing us to properly weight out how much of a good/bad idea it would be, who knows whether it can have a big impact in slowing the economic crisis..

Wertz

5318008! wrote: »

The heydey of cannabis is over. All that's needed is some toxicology studies and government regualtion and then synthetic cannabinoids could replace it for good.

They'd be far healthier because you wouldn't have to inhale smoke or eat plant **** to get high and they'd be less addictive as people would be taking them orally (not that cannabis is that addictive to begin with).

I'm expecting a backlash from sentimental stoners, clutching at straws and picking out the tiniest most inconsequencial things as counter arguments.I'm not even going to bother. I've made my point.

Not withstanding your "sentimental stoners" jibe, and as I've had it argued with me in these type of threads in the past, the very act of smoking weed itself is part of the whole attraction to cannabis use (as can be the illegal element to it too in some cases). Sitting around with your mates popping a pill and then being semi comatose in front of the TV all night simply wouldn't do it for me personally. I like making a spliff or a bong, passing it around, letting that do it's thing then having another a while later, or just stopping.

You can make a similar argument about alcohol...it would surely be possible to bypass the whole "having to drink the stuff" problem and just move on to a drip feed system or for the hardcore element, IV push. That'll get us all drunk without many of the associated ill effects on the gastro intesinal system. But people enjoy the act or drinking, of sitting around with their friends chugging pints or sipping wine or whatever...the drunkeneness that follows may be the end product but it's as much about the journey as it is about the destination...and as much as I enjoy being stoned when that time comes around, the very act of getting stoned is as much an enjoyable (if unhealthy) aspect of the drug as the high itself.

As for beating the recession through legalisation? I made the point several weeks ago on here someplace about the vast sums of money that leave our economy or enter the Irish black economy on the back of just weed and cannabis. Tapping into that money that is slipping through the cracks would be common sense, alongside the savings to be made in reductions to law enforcement and penal incarceration budgets and the freeing up of those same resources. Commonsnse approaches don't work in the real world though...best to just keep butting our collective heads against a giant brickwall and pretend that current policy is working and working well....

Jesus Juice

People can discuss this til there blue in the face but the government will never make it legal!