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Would legalising weed slow the economic downturn?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Smart Bug


    tech2 wrote: »
    It might introduce jobs but then the government would need to introduce more gardai into the public sector to handle the extra crime thus more money going out than coming in. I disagree strongly with what you propose.


    Extra crime? Huh?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    You could grow your own but your looking at at least a 3 month wait, plus if your a consignor of weed your going to want to try out other blends and new strains. Just look at the Cannabis cup in Amsterdam, it's as competitive as any other horticultural gathering. Growing weed is a hobby/passion it's not for everybody.

    There is a huge industry in cannabis, not only in recreational use but medical and commercial/industrial applications. If Ireland was exclusively able to grow cannabis we'd have many different markets to sell to and it would give our poor farmers something that isn't controlled by monopoly's that drive farming towards the lowest possible quality.

    There is a huge industry in cannabis that goes beyond just getting stoned.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,237 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    pffft

    it's money for old rope


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    I don't know, used to be a legalisation supporter but if it was legal I'd use it regularly and more than likely be failing college. Its the hassle of having to go to a dealer that means we just go to the off licence in the evening. Weeds different you can smoke it any time of day.

    As for the economy. Would help with tourism from the UK and maybe a few Americans might come here instead of London if they were planning a European trip. THis would help a lot as Northern IRelands gonna rape our tourism industry in the summer with their cheapness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    if a stoner's on the dole, and buying weed if it was legal he be paying tax on it which means hed be giving money back to the country so how is that, so wrong... If he buys a pack of smokes its the same, the government is yet again getting tax back...

    I dont really see it doing all that much to change things....

    would it be cheaper in the north?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭knoximus


    think about the millions flowing thru the black market that could be pumped into the economy if prohibition would end and cannabis was regulated. anything u make illegal will be run by a criminal element e.g. Alcohol prohibition
    in the u.s. produced gangs and gang leaders like Al Capone which resulted in many deaths. just like the u.s's failed war on drugs.
    (im gonna keep goin with this because it really p**ses me off.)

    Its like this, Without regulation anyone can get their hands on weed. even a 6 yr old. Dealers dont ask for ID. Infact you are exposing ur children to higher class drugs.(would u like something a little stronger?) dealers dont care as long as the make the deal and make their money.

    The state of California is heading for legalisation because they are solid broke. taxed at $50 dollars an oz.

    Annual Causes of Death in the United States

    Tobacco435,000
    Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity365,000
    Alcohol85,000
    Microbial Agents75,000
    Toxic Agents55,000
    Motor Vehicle Crashes26,347
    Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs32,000
    Suicide30,622
    Incidents Involving Firearms29,000
    Homicide20,308
    Sexual Behaviors20,000
    All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect17,000
    Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin7,600
    Marijuana 0

    Grow it, Tax it, Regulate it!

    Nature will provide.
    march on May 9th!--Legalise!! Garden of rememberance. would be a great day to rage against the machine. (peacefully) :D


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjQlHfYvPK0


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    I think it would help alot. As long as its not taxed so much as to deter people buying it legally. Think of all the criminals who get their money through drugs, all that would go to the goverment instead


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    FYI Labour's Emmett Stagg suggested in the Dail that marijuana should be legalised and taxed
    It's mentioned briefly here (towards the end)
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0411/1224244447594.html

    He was on the radio defending his comments too.

    It seems that nothing more will come of it though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    Mortality figures are meaningless, marijuana use needs long term mental health and quality of life data for a reasonable assesment


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    I'm going to attempt some rough figures. I wouldn't make much of the cost savings to the state - guards tend not to waste time on weed, and not much organised crime is funded primarily by it.

    but...

    Lets say that 100% tax allows legal weed to undercut the price of black market weed. Lets say 2% of the population are regular to heavy (chronic:pac:) users - average E50 per week spend.

    so thats E25*80,000 users*52 weeks = 104,000,000 per anum, plus lets say another 50 for occasional users. Not a huge amount, but hardly chicken feed either.

    Oh, and that's assuming that legalisation has no effect on consumption/demand, which many people here seem to think it will. I am inclined to think that it wouldn't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    I'm just not going to bother reading the weed bashing through 6 pages as I've read it all before.

    The short answer is yes it would create new business in the form of growers, grow sites, coffee shops the gards could be rediployed to deal with more serious crimes like rape, murder and hard drugs and crime might even fall a little bit for once. And if the government were sensible they could tax it at an affordable rate and gain extra revenue without forcing people to still buy it on the blackmarket.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,583 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Irishcrx wrote: »
    it would create new business in the form of growers, grow sites

    It already employs a lot of people in this country (i'd estimate at least 10,000, it's out number 1 crop, pity we import most of it), I don't think making it legal will create more employment, if anything it will cause more people to loose their jobs. You will see a lot of small time dealers go out of business as consumers start to move more to the respectable high street chains like StarBuds, Jamican Republic & Mac Bongalds.

    I'm completly against tax or law on any kind of home grown produce not for resale.

    :)


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,856 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    You might as well have a thread on legalising genocide. It's not going to happen, so what's the point of talking about it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭DevilsBreath


    ǝpnp puıɯ noʎ dılɟ ʇsnɾ ʎɐɯ ʇı


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,856 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    It already employs a lot of people in this country (i'd estimate at least 10,000, it's out number 1 crop, pity we import most of it), I don't think making it legal will create more employment, if anything it will cause more people to loose their jobs. You will see a lot of small time dealers go out of business as consumers start to move more to the respectable high street chains like StarBuds, Jamican Republic & Mac Bongalds.

    I'm completly against tax or law on any kind of home grown produce not for resale.

    :)

    Thiis post is a level I assume? I hope so anyways. I can't view the youtube clip so if that is explaining why this post seems so silly then fair enough.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,461 ✭✭✭Queen-Mise


    i am absolutely behind the legalizing of all drugs.

    Take the money out of criminals and terrorists hands.

    Create jobs, hand out contracts to honest/fair countries.

    It would bring the most profitable illegal industry into tax net.

    For an end note, the damage that these drugs do cannot be used as a reason not to leave them illegal, not when alcohol and cigs are legal.

    Both of those kills tens of thousands more than drugs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    5starpool wrote: »
    You might as well have a thread on legalising genocide. It's not going to happen, so what's the point of talking about it?
    That's a very defeatist attitude. It's like giving up hope on the road and health systems.
    I'm going to attempt some rough figures. I wouldn't make much of the cost savings to the state - guards tend not to waste time on weed, and not much organised crime is funded primarily by it.
    Your not taking into account tourists and all the side industries that it would create.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,583 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    5starpool wrote: »
    I can't view the youtube clip so if that is explaining why this post seems so silly then fair enough.

    i think in the context of this debate everthings silly, we inherited some stupid laws, this is just another one of them...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭el_tiddlero


    efla wrote: »
    Mortality figures are meaningless, marijuana use needs long term mental health and quality of life data for a reasonable assesment

    just like we have for alcohol right?? pffffffffffttttttttt......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    Never going to happen? I don't know about that america are making leaps and bounds towards it and Obamha has stated before he is pro legal. But ireland maybe not at the moment we are a prude country and will only do things that make governments money not people happy.Thats not to say everyone would be happy with making it legal but in fairness I believe people have the right to smoke it, it is a plant for gods sake it's not artificially constructed in factories like most hard drugs are and the majority of smokers are peacefull people with no intent to harm, at least growing for personal comsumtion should be legal.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭Leprachaun


    *sigh* Maybe one day they'll legalise weed. It's a plant for god's sake. I should be allowed smoke what I like. I don't see why people think everyone who smokes the wacky tobaccy is a stoner/waster. Anyone I know who smokes are intelligent,hard working everyday people. It's better for you than alchahol and frankly it's absurd that it's illegal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    You see, it's like this,the fookin stoners would just love to have everyone in a state of so called euphoria.

    Fookers forget one thing, if everybody was a stoner who would pay for the stoners upkeep??

    Fookers need a balanced populace to support them, as they sure as fcuk can contribute nothing themselves.

    Go figure;)

    Probably the first time i have seen one of your posts that is not about poo, but you certainly managed to talk a pile of ****e.;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭generalmiaow


    I'm all for legalising cannabis, even though I can't smoke it any more due to medical reasons, but it's impossible to predict whether it will be a good economic idea without looking at the whole thing from end to end. I'm no economist, but here are my thoughts, with the disclaimer that they are based totally on bits and pieces from newspapers and the like:

    Currently, 16% of Cannabis in Ireland is grown here, the rest is imported from the general Iberian area (spain, morocco etc) by criminal gangs, by way of Holland/Belgium via the UK. I would assume that of that 16%, some of it is for personal use, but I would think the odd plant here and there is lost in a sea of what the tabloids call "cannabis factories".

    - In the above, it looks like we're losing out on excise, VAT and giving money to gangs, which is used to buy handguns and 32-foot drug yachts. The trafficking of cannabis probably brings guns with it too. Winner, government.

    The bulk of cannabis (I'm a bit out of the loop, but this is how it was in 2005) is soap bar, which is dirty, filthy hashish. This is very easy to bring around, but requires the use of tobacco to smoke in typical usage. In the Netherlands, since the tobacco smoking ban people have managed to smoke pure weed in the coffeeshops.
    Among my peers, even those who have acquired the leaves and flowering tops, so to speak, of the plant, use tobacco because the weed is hard to come by.

    - I would assume that post legalisation people would buy less tobacco for rolling joints, but would they consume more THC yearwise? Well, with the availabllity of "good quality" plant material in recent years, I haven't seen my peers smoke more, so I don't think they would. They have, however, also grown up and got jobs and so on, but in an evening, they don't go through the same number of hand-rolled cannabis cigarettes. I think the winner here is public health, by use of less actual smoking materials.

    The way cannabis is distributed after it gets here is a mystery of sorts, the classic way of looking at it is that it goes from bigger fish to smaller fish and so on, and eventually goes to a mackerel, who gives almost usable quantities to a goldfish who either sells it to his minnows (who are sometimes personally known to him) at little profit or uses it himself.

    - In a legalisation situation, all these fish are now out of work. However, the papers recently said that all these fish are on social welfare anyway, so we're either creating jobs and getting people off the dole, or getting tax revenue.
    I'm sure some of them would swim off to different rivers of illegal stuff, and I accept the argument that if the price is too high, people won't pay it and use illegal cannabis instead, but the distribution system is based on the fact that cannabis is illegal. I think I would support measures to prevent large quantities of it being shifted around outside the system, even though they won't be any more effective than they are now (and when there is cannabis available, they have failed). Large scale domestic growing, on the other hand, would make drug smuggling into selling coal to Newcastle. The stems and fibrous parts of the plant have other uses, as mentioned, but this is already grown as industrial hemp. Winner, public finances.

    The part I have no answer to is the minnow bit, what they call the last mile in telecommunication. If you want a tourism boost, create weed cafes, but smoking outside will make Dublin smell like weed all the time (the smell is far more apparent and long lasting than tobacco) - whether that is an improvement is up to you. I really doubt that weed tourism bringing people to Dublin is an argument that would convince the straights, it sounds more like a tabloid scare story. I have a feeling that the actual consumer tax take from weed will either be small due to people growing it and selling/giving it to their friends (perhaps I am naive here), or an Irish government will tax it to hell and ruin the whole thing.

    I'd love somebody to run some numbers on this, because if the price of enforcing the regulatory aspect is over the price of raiding college students' apartments for a ten spot the whole thing is wrong. There's also Grainne "What would you know, you're only a pharmacologist" Kenny's argument that an extra burden is placed on the health service.

    But I'm not an economist, I could be wrong. It doesn't matter to me anyway, I really believe Cannabis should never have been illegal. The productivity vs. spending all day smoking weed thing is hand-waving - you should have a look at Christian Fundamendalist forums where they say the same things about masturbation or dancing, or ask your granny what people said about TV back in the 50s. It's a simple case of
    The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts...
    The economic thing comes up a lot, but I think it's a tactic used by cannabis smokers to try and express their loss of freedom in terms of a loss of revenue that appeals to more conservative types.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    A very close relative of mine is an alcoholic. And after seeing what that does, I can tell you now, I'd rather they were a stoner. Alcohol is by far a more destructive drug, yet it's readily available and hardly policed. Economic issues aside, it makes little sense to keep things the way they are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭generalmiaow


    Sanjuro wrote: »
    A very close relative of mine is an alcoholic. And after seeing what that does, I can tell you now, I'd rather they were a stoner. Alcohol is by far a more destructive drug, yet it's readily available and hardly policed. Economic issues aside, it makes little sense to keep things the way they are.

    I agree being an alcoholic is much worse, though it remains to be seen that legalising cannabis will reduce the harm alcohol does. On the other hand, you would need posters like this:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    Very good points made in the two above. In my view it should be legal to grow for personal use anyway, absolutly absurt that people are told what plants they can and can't grow for THEMSELFS, on making it legal that would be the approach to go with and for medical use or course as I believe it is very helpfull to alot of illness that causes great pain and this has been reconised and used in countrys such as America so argueing that it doesn't won't fly anymore unless your just weed bashing.

    I've known many alcholics through my family and they have destroyed there lives with it yet it's readily available for them to continue killing themselfs off the shelfs, on deals they practicly breed it into you and make this image of ireland as a great craic drinking nation while sweeping our abuse of it away.

    Personally I don't drink much, hardly ever but I do enjoy a smoke on the evening when I can and the weekend, I also work very hard, have a great gf, a car and a mortgage, I play in two bands and sports does that class as a waster?Don't think so yet if I was caught smoking I'd be branded a criminal and convicted...senseless and it really does need to be sorted out even the gards don't take cannabis seriously they just have to because it is there job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    The part I have no answer to is the minnow bit, what they call the last mile in telecommunication. If you want a tourism boost, create weed cafes, but smoking outside will make Dublin smell like weed all the time (the smell is far more apparent and long lasting than tobacco) - whether that is an improvement is up to you.
    This is only if you want to go down the road of having smoking cafes like in Amsterdam. Even if pigs did start flying across the sky I doubt the government would allow smoking indoors and even in Amsterdam smoking outdoors in public spaces is technically illegal (although rarely enforced).

    The problem is easily solved by extending the smoking ban to include marachuan and not allowing smoking at all in public places. "coffeshops" could just provide vaporizers as standard or even restricting cannabis use to special restaurants, where the customers ordered a tray of special starters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    just like we have for alcohol right?? pffffffffffttttttttt......

    Yes, unfortunately


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 owya


    ah such a bad idea!!! everyone of you would think so too if you seen how it destroyed someone close to you;imagine the state of us if it was legalised,do we not have enough crap available to us already to mess with our heads!i'd like to see what what your opinion is if you seen your best friend destroy their life because of weed;yes they had a job,yes they had friends and yes they only smoked ita few times a week and yes they are now f***kd because of it,ya such a stupid idea ,we'd end up with more overcrowding in hospitals coz we'd be suffering from more mental health issues .:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    owya wrote: »
    ah such a bad idea!!! everyone of you would think so too if you seen how it destroyed someone close to you;imagine the state of us if it was legalised,do we not have enough crap available to us already to mess with our heads!i'd like to see what what your opinion is if you seen your best friend destroy their life because of weed;yes they had a job,yes they had friends and yes they only smoked ita few times a week and yes they are now f***kd because of it,ya such a stupid idea ,we'd end up with more overcrowding in hospitals coz we'd be suffering from more mental health issues .:mad:

    Obvious troll.

    Back on topic.

    The heydey of cannabis is over. All that's needed is some toxicology studies and government regualtion and then synthetic cannabinoids could replace it for good.

    They'd be far healthier because you wouldn't have to inhale smoke or eat plant **** to get high and they'd be less addictive as people would be taking them orally (not that cannabis is that addictive to begin with).

    I'm expecting a backlash from sentimental stoners, clutching at straws and picking out the tiniest most inconsequencial things as counter arguments.I'm not even going to bother. I've made my point.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭generalmiaow


    owya wrote: »
    ah such a bad idea!!! everyone of you would think so too if you seen how it destroyed someone close to you;imagine the state of us if it was legalised,do we not have enough crap available to us already to mess with our heads!i'd like to see what what your opinion is if you seen your best friend destroy their life because of weed;yes they had a job,yes they had friends and yes they only smoked ita few times a week and yes they are now f***kd because of it,ya such a stupid idea ,we'd end up with more overcrowding in hospitals coz we'd be suffering from more mental health issues .:mad:

    I am sorry about your friend.

    I've experienced major health difficulties myself from the use of such substances which were very hard to overcome, involved months of mental horror, medication, unsympathetic attitudes and coping - and resulted in my not using them ever again for fear of a return - yet I still don't consider myself in a position to dictate what decisions people can and cannot make for themselves.

    The fact is, no-one can predict what will happen when cannabis is legalised, but even after all I've been through I am certain - for anyone who has suffered because of drugs, the fact that it was illegal made no difference and only complicated the harm.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭generalmiaow


    5318008! wrote: »
    Obvious troll.

    Back on topic.

    The heydey of cannabis is over. All that's needed is some toxicology studies and government regualtion and then synthetic cannabinoids could replace it for good.

    They'd be far healthier because you wouldn't have to inhale smoke or eat plant **** to get high and they'd be less addictive as people would be taking them orally (not that cannabis is that addictive to begin with).

    I'm expecting a backlash from sentimental stoners, clutching at straws and picking out the tiniest most inconsequencial things as counter arguments.I'm not even going to bother. I've made my point.

    Why would you bother with synthetic cannabinoids? Why not just THC? Nobody's done any tox studies on the huffman series. THC is very non-toxic and extracting it from plants is very easy.

    By the way, even if you're not going to bother responding to it :), oral use of cannabinoids is problematic because there's no self-titration.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭eyresquare


    THC is meant to be bad for you in the long run.It affects your memory and concentration levels.If i got the chance to smoke illegal substances like weed or hashishe i wouldn't touch it.It should never be legalized.If it was legalized it would leave the whole country dumb and out of their minds all the time.Imagine going to your local supermarket and meeting all these drug users looking for their munchies with their red eyes and drowsey,out of their mind.Ireland wouldn't be able to put up with these type of people and it would male our country look awful.

    Stop these terrible petitions now before it becomes too late and our great nation is ruined by these drug infectees


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    eyresquare wrote: »
    THC is meant to be bad for you in the long run.It affects your memory and concentration levels.If i got the chance to smoke illegal substances like weed or hashishe i wouldn't touch it.It should never be legalized.If it was legalized it would leave the whole country dumb and out of their minds all the time.Imagine going to your local supermarket and meeting all these drug users looking for their munchies with their red eyes and drowsey,out of their mind.Ireland wouldn't be able to put up with these type of people and it would male our country look awful.

    Stop these terrible petitions now before it becomes too late and our great nation is ruined by these drug infectees

    Yeah, everyone who smokes weed is a totally useless, out of shape,
    waster, hippy type.

    Like This Guy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    Why would you bother with synthetic cannabinoids? Why not just THC? Nobody's done any tox studies on the huffman series. THC is very non-toxic and extracting it from plants is very easy.

    I was under the impression that people found pure thc to be dissappointing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭generalmiaow


    5318008! wrote: »
    I was under the impression that people found pure thc to be dissappointing.

    True, but no more disappointing than the JWH-018 type things in "Spice" and so on. The only reason for their popularity is THC being illegal. Whatever gets vaporised in a vaporiser though, THC + cannabidol and whatever, seems to be good enough for people.

    I agree with you in principle, by the way, and I don't subscribe to this "nature knows best" idea, (thanks for your third cold in three months nature!) but I don't know if oral cannabinoid tablets or even vaporised thc sprays would appeal to people as much as you're saying they do - apart from the obvious medicine things. People are still taking risks to buy and sell weed and headshops abroad have been unable to sell synthetic cannabinoid tablets despite their legality and the sudden availability of the chems. Thus I think the "heyday" of cannabis is not over.

    Edit: What I mean is, I think the future will be THC/cannabidol or an anandamide analogue and used in portable vaporisers. This is going to sound even more ridiculous to your "sentimental stoners" - but just look at what's happening with electronic cigarettes and the huge multiplication of popularity there. It just seems to me though that keeping cannabis illegal once we could do the things I/you're talking about wouldn't make sense


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭g5fd6ow0hseima


    the '1 plant rule' would go along way to reducing crime levels, therefore government expenditure would also decrease.

    70% of drug seizures in Ireland in 2008 were comprised of cannabis, so its the country's biggest drug. If people were allowed grow their own, its only those posh coke snotring ***** who will be propping up the underworld.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 284 ✭✭We


    Only responding to this because people are thanking you for your ridiculously ignorant post..
    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Your nick says upward spiral but I am inclined to believe that a downward spiral is all we would get if this was done. There is many other prohibited items and services that could be legalised and would bring in much more tax.

    Want to explain why it would create a downward spiral? Do you actually have any justification to suggest such a thing? evidence? examples? statistics? ANYTHING?

    Secondly, please give us an example of something different that could be legalized which is less harmful, more in demand and 'would bring in much more tax', just so we know that your post isn't a total brainfart, and has some thought behind it..

    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Knowing our Government if they did legalise pot they would tax it so high that the liberal left-wing hippy stoners who consume it would not be able to afford it on their dole and would still revert to illegal methods of procuring said substances:rolleyes:.

    The fact that you suggest only 'left-wing hippy stoners' consume weed pretty much sums up your ignorance, your prejudice and your naivety.. Do you even realise that your rationale is the exact same as all the racists, bigots and anti-semites in this world, yet if someone called you one of these things you would probably deny it to the ground, right?

    Seriously, I actually have no idea how you come up with this shíte.. What about cigarrettes and alcohol? Do the people who cant afford these things 'revert to illegal methods' to get them? Is this common place? :o

    bleh :mad:

    For the record, I have no real opinion on this matter. No, I'm not a big consmer of weed, neither am I totally against the idea of legalizing it, I just don't like people talking out of their hole, especially when they get support and agreement from other people..

    In my opinion, unless somebody can provide some reliable statistics and expected 'return of income' for the legalization of weed, thus allowing us to properly weight out how much of a good/bad idea it would be, who knows whether it can have a big impact in slowing the economic crisis..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    5318008! wrote: »

    The heydey of cannabis is over. All that's needed is some toxicology studies and government regualtion and then synthetic cannabinoids could replace it for good.

    They'd be far healthier because you wouldn't have to inhale smoke or eat plant **** to get high and they'd be less addictive as people would be taking them orally (not that cannabis is that addictive to begin with).

    I'm expecting a backlash from sentimental stoners, clutching at straws and picking out the tiniest most inconsequencial things as counter arguments.I'm not even going to bother. I've made my point.

    Not withstanding your "sentimental stoners" jibe, and as I've had it argued with me in these type of threads in the past, the very act of smoking weed itself is part of the whole attraction to cannabis use (as can be the illegal element to it too in some cases). Sitting around with your mates popping a pill and then being semi comatose in front of the TV all night simply wouldn't do it for me personally. I like making a spliff or a bong, passing it around, letting that do it's thing then having another a while later, or just stopping.

    You can make a similar argument about alcohol...it would surely be possible to bypass the whole "having to drink the stuff" problem and just move on to a drip feed system or for the hardcore element, IV push. That'll get us all drunk without many of the associated ill effects on the gastro intesinal system. But people enjoy the act or drinking, of sitting around with their friends chugging pints or sipping wine or whatever...the drunkeneness that follows may be the end product but it's as much about the journey as it is about the destination...and as much as I enjoy being stoned when that time comes around, the very act of getting stoned is as much an enjoyable (if unhealthy) aspect of the drug as the high itself.

    As for beating the recession through legalisation? I made the point several weeks ago on here someplace about the vast sums of money that leave our economy or enter the Irish black economy on the back of just weed and cannabis. Tapping into that money that is slipping through the cracks would be common sense, alongside the savings to be made in reductions to law enforcement and penal incarceration budgets and the freeing up of those same resources. Commonsnse approaches don't work in the real world though...best to just keep butting our collective heads against a giant brickwall and pretend that current policy is working and working well....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    People can discuss this til there blue in the face but the government will never make it legal!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    People can discuss this til there blue in the face but the government will never make it legal!

    You're not wrong. The backlash from ill informed or downright ignorant general public opinion on cannabis, in the event of possible decriminaisation would scare the beejabus out of any politician, probably more than severe budget cuts, current economy etc.
    Gay Mitchell (I think?) was on Matt Cooper a few weeks back standing up for some comment he made in relation to the whole weed legalisation issue, making most of the points that have been posted on this site down through the years...lo and behold we have the like of Grainne Kenny coming on (why do TodayFM insist on giving this person airtime?) and spouting the same old tired bullsh*t and pandering to the biddy element of the country. It's the like of her you have to deal with and hundreds of thousands like her.
    Better to just keep flying over to the dam every month and getting your jollies that way...who cares if millions of € just leave our already bankrupt country, so that punters can get to do in peace what they can't do here?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Korvanica


    Grimes wrote: »
    It would probably make everyone to stupid to realise they are being screwed over on a daily basis. So yeah it would solve the economic downturn because everyone would be busy giggling like idiots at the loss of their jobs.

    While we are on topic can we legalise prostitution? That would generate great revenue and create jobs and I enjoy it .

    Get your head out of your ar$e and learn a bit about smoking ganj before you vomit on the keyboard like that again. Most people who smoke weed have a joint or two in the evenings to chill out. Its Better than drinking alcohol or spending your time writing crap on forums that doesn't help a discussion whatsoever.

    I think legalizing it would help the recession. Yes the government would tax it high, but the huge supply of it would drive the prices down and would have sellers competing etc. Yes there would still be people growing and selling illegally but not as many as it would not be as profitable as before.
    jobs would be created in many sectors, growing, selling, cafes, border control and the tourism section would also boom, (imagine the amount of English coming over for short visits.)

    The Gardai would not face any cutbacks or layoffs either, instead of spending time looking for dealers and suppliers they could try stop innocent people getting the fu*k beaten out of them by drunken scumbags and their mates. And also the publicans could bitch about lost profits etc form people buying weed instead of drinking, or else they could do the sensible thing and get a selling license and sell weed as well as alcohol.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    eyresquare wrote: »
    THC is meant to be bad for you in the long run.It affects your memory and concentration levels.If i got the chance to smoke illegal substances like weed or hashishe i wouldn't touch it.It should never be legalized.If it was legalized it would leave the whole country dumb and out of their minds all the time.Imagine going to your local supermarket and meeting all these drug users looking for their munchies with their red eyes and drowsey,out of their mind.Ireland wouldn't be able to put up with these type of people and it would male our country look awful.

    Stop these terrible petitions now before it becomes too late and our great nation is ruined by these drug infectees
    How can you be so arrogant as to comment on a subject it's woefully obvious you've never researched? Same goes to anyone who comes out with uninformed nonsense like 'all weed smokers are hippies on the dole.'
    Queen-Mise wrote: »
    i am absolutely behind the legalizing of all drugs.

    Take the money out of criminals and terrorists hands.

    Create jobs, hand out contracts to honest/fair countries.

    It would bring the most profitable illegal industry into tax net.

    For an end note, the damage that these drugs do cannot be used as a reason not to leave them illegal, not when alcohol and cigs are legal.

    Both of those kills tens of thousands more than drugs.

    And comments like this are just as bad and are actually damaging for the cause you support. Saying that drugs should be legalised because they're less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes (and many of them are) is an overused, garbage argument that always reminds me of a one-year-old crying for a rattle because the other kid has one. Saying that 'all drugs should be legalised' is even worse. Do you think that legalisation of Methamphetine would benefit the country? Should PCP be legalised? Bromo-Dragonfly? All drugs are very different and each one should be judged on its own merits. You're treating drugs as if they're all the same, which is the attitude ignorant 'norms' have - MDMA, coke and weed are the one thing, some purple-spotted pill growing out of hash plants that you inject directly into your balls.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    eyresquare wrote: »
    THC is meant to be bad for you in the long run.It affects your memory and concentration levels.If i got the chance to smoke illegal substances like weed or hashishe i wouldn't touch it.It should never be legalized.If it was legalized it would leave the whole country dumb and out of their minds all the time.Imagine going to your local supermarket and meeting all these drug users looking for their munchies with their red eyes and drowsey,out of their mind.Ireland wouldn't be able to put up with these type of people and it would male our country look awful.

    Stop these terrible petitions now before it becomes too late and our great nation is ruined by these drug infectees
    You must have no self control if you're so afraid you and all your friends will turn into drug addicts overnight if cannabis became legal. Cannabis is already widely used and no country has fallen apart because of it. This is just typical tabloid scaremongering based on no facts what so ever.

    Like I said cannabis is widely used as it is, legalizing would free up the garda and legal system to deal with other issues. It would take that money off criminal gangs and put it in the hands of the government and legitimate businesses.

    You may have something against people using cannabis but the fact is most "drug crime" is only related to drugs, it's not directly caused by drug use. Prohibition has created more problems than it solved, not only that but it's created an environment that see's drug related crime escalate year on year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    And comments like this are just as bad and are actually damaging for the cause you support. Saying that drugs should be legalised because they're less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes (and many of them are) is an overused, garbage argument that always reminds me of a one-year-old crying for a rattle because the other kid has one.

    It's the most valid argument there is, and sadly it's one of only two arguments that seems to work. Alcohol and cigarettes are legal and the world hasn't fallen apart yet. Legalise safer drugs and it won't either.
    Saying that 'all drugs should be legalised' is even worse. Do you think that legalisation of Methamphetine would benefit the country? Should PCP be legalised? Bromo-Dragonfly? All drugs are very different and each one should be judged on its own merits. You're treating drugs as if they're all the same, which is the attitude ignorant 'norms' have - MDMA, coke and weed are the one thing, some purple-spotted pill growing out of hash plants that you inject directly into your balls.

    Well I do anyway.Methamphetamine is a real rural usa type drug that people would only use if they didn't have access to other drugs. You won't find many people in Ireland doing it, because they have access to safer drugs like cocaine and amphetamine. If all drugs (including meth) were legalised i really don't think it'd be any different.

    And anyway, if it's so bad (and imo, it is the worst commonly used drug out there) why is it prescribed to kids with ADHD in america?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desoxyn


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭b28


    Why don't you ask the Dutch???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭b28


    5318008! wrote: »
    And anyway, if it's so bad (and imo, it is the worst commonly used drug out there) why is it prescribed to kids with ADHD in america?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desoxyn

    well as a person who suffered adhd and was placed on a stimulant, i would say kids are forced on it to help them concentrate and behave!
    however, that has nothing to do with abuse of methamphetamine other than it's more easily accessible through people selling their prescription!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 865 ✭✭✭Purple Gorilla


    I'm not sure if it's been posted, but here's a very positive report on Portugal, which a good few years ago legalised personal possession of some drugs.
    http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
    Pop quiz: Which European country has the most liberal drug laws? (Hint: It's not the Netherlands.)

    Although its capital is notorious among stoners and college kids for marijuana haze–filled "coffee shops," Holland has never actually legalized cannabis — the Dutch simply don't enforce their laws against the shops. The correct answer is Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine.

    At the recommendation of a national commission charged with addressing Portugal's drug problem, jail time was replaced with the offer of therapy. The argument was that the fear of prison drives addicts underground and that incarceration is more expensive than treatment — so why not give drug addicts health services instead? Under Portugal's new regime, people found guilty of possessing small amounts of drugs are sent to a panel consisting of a psychologist, social worker and legal adviser for appropriate treatment (which may be refused without criminal punishment), instead of jail.

    The question is, does the new policy work? At the time, critics in the poor, socially conservative and largely Catholic nation said decriminalizing drug possession would open the country to "drug tourists" and exacerbate Portugal's drug problem; the country had some of the highest levels of hard-drug use in Europe. But the recently released results of a report commissioned by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, suggest otherwise.

    The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

    "Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."

    Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.

    The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

    Portugal's case study is of some interest to lawmakers in the U.S., confronted now with the violent overflow of escalating drug gang wars in Mexico. The U.S. has long championed a hard-line drug policy, supporting only international agreements that enforce drug prohibition and imposing on its citizens some of the world's harshest penalties for drug possession and sales. Yet America has the highest rates of cocaine and marijuana use in the world, and while most of the E.U. (including Holland) has more liberal drug laws than the U.S., it also has less drug use.

    "I think we can learn that we should stop being reflexively opposed when someone else does [decriminalize] and should take seriously the possibility that anti-user enforcement isn't having much influence on our drug consumption," says Mark Kleiman, author of the forthcoming When Brute Force Fails: How to Have Less Crime and Less Punishment and director of the drug policy analysis program at UCLA. Kleiman does not consider Portugal a realistic model for the U.S., however, because of differences in size and culture between the two countries.

    But there is a movement afoot in the U.S., in the legislatures of New York State, California and Massachusetts, to reconsider our overly punitive drug laws. Recently, Senators Jim Webb and Arlen Specter proposed that Congress create a national commission, not unlike Portugal's, to deal with prison reform and overhaul drug-sentencing policy. As Webb noted, the U.S. is home to 5% of the global population but 25% of its prisoners.

    At the Cato Institute in early April, Greenwald contended that a major problem with most American drug policy debate is that it's based on "speculation and fear mongering," rather than empirical evidence on the effects of more lenient drug policies. In Portugal, the effect was to neutralize what had become the country's number one public health problem, he says.

    "The impact in the life of families and our society is much lower than it was before decriminalization," says Joao Castel-Branco Goulao, Portugual's "drug czar" and president of the Institute on Drugs and Drug Addiction, adding that police are now able to re-focus on tracking much higher level dealers and larger quantities of drugs.

    Peter Reuter, a professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Maryland, like Kleiman, is skeptical. He conceded in a presentation at the Cato Institute that "it's fair to say that decriminalization in Portugal has met its central goal. Drug use did not rise." However, he notes that Portugal is a small country and that the cyclical nature of drug epidemics — which tends to occur no matter what policies are in place — may account for the declines in heroin use and deaths.

    The Cato report's author, Greenwald, hews to the first point: that the data shows that decriminalization does not result in increased drug use. Since that is what concerns the public and policymakers most about decriminalization, he says, "that is the central concession that will transform the debate."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    There's been alot of talk in the US about how legalizing marijuana may reduce the effects of the recession, by creating jobs and taxation etc. Do you think this is a viable idea that could be adopted in Ireland or is it just stoners trying to get everyone else to chillax about it?

    No.

    The problem with the economy go a lot deeper that are people allowed to smoke pot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    eyresquare wrote: »
    THC is meant to be bad for you in the long run.It affects your memory and concentration levels.If i got the chance to smoke illegal substances like weed or hashishe i wouldn't touch it.It should never be legalized.If it was legalized it would leave the whole country dumb and out of their minds all the time.Imagine going to your local supermarket and meeting all these drug users looking for their munchies with their red eyes and drowsey,out of their mind.Ireland wouldn't be able to put up with these type of people and it would male our country look awful.

    Stop these terrible petitions now before it becomes too late and our great nation is ruined by these drug infectees

    In fairness someone whos never tried it isnt really in the position to argue against it because they wouldnt know what its truly like


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