Laws Question? Ask here!

Shelflife

Only have to match numbers if it’s uncontested.

blackwhite

Was out watching a game today, and an incident around a choke tackle got me wondering on the rules around the whole choke tackle v maul interpretation by referees.

An attacking player was held up about 10m from the line, and the defence managed to get a few players latched on to stop him transferring the ball to teammates.

The attacking team piled in, and got the maul moving towards the line, presumably hoping for, at worst, a 5m scrum if they got over the line.

Inside the five, the defending team very obviously dropped the maul, and the referee blew and awarded them a scrum.

I’m sure we’ve all seen similar happen time and again, and I know we’ve often benefited from it in games ourselves. But what I can’t understand is how a choke tackle being the initiator of a maul, seemingly changes the laws to make a deliberate collapse of an advancing maul now acceptable?

irishbucsfan

Once it becomes a maul, a collapse is a penalty offense. However before it becomes a maul, a collapse is just the completion of the tackle.

Losty Dublin

blackwhite wrote: »

Was out watching a game today, and an incident around a choke tackle got me wondering on the rules around the whole choke tackle v maul interpretation by referees.

An attacking player was held up about 10m from the line, and the defence managed to get a few players latched on to stop him transferring the ball to teammates.

The attacking team piled in, and got the maul moving towards the line, presumably hoping for, at worst, a 5m scrum if they got over the line.

Inside the five, the defending team very obviously dropped the maul, and the referee blew and awarded them a scrum.

I’m sure we’ve all seen similar happen time and again, and I know we’ve often benefited from it in games ourselves. But what I can’t understand is how a choke tackle being the initiator of a maul, seemingly changes the laws to make a deliberate collapse of an advancing maul now acceptable?

Forget the choke tackle as it isn't material; how did you reckon that it was an illegal collapse of a maul?

blackwhite

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Once it becomes a maul, a collapse is a penalty offense. However before it becomes a maul, a collapse is just the completion of the tackle.

In which case the tacklers still have to roll away, and there isn’t an automatic turnover to the defending team

blackwhite

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Forget the choke tackle as it isn't material; how did you reckon that it was an illegal collapse of a maul?

A combination on them shouting to down it before the line, and previously unengaged players taking out the lead players nearest the line.

It was moving towards the line with a bit of momentum - and it was a fairly obvious tactic to avoid the 5m attacking scrum. I’ve been a defender in that situation before, and we’ve yet to see a ref give a penalty for pulling it down if the maul was initiated by a choke tackle.

My understanding was that how a maul started was immaterial, but what I’ve seen time and again from referees was making me doubt that.

Losty Dublin

blackwhite wrote: »

A combination on them shouting to down it before the line, and previously unengaged players taking out the lead players nearest the line.
.

Shouts are not always relevant, sorry Can't comment on the latter other than to say that you need to bind from the back and not the sides

Tim Robbins

blackwhite wrote: »

It was moving towards the line with a bit of momentum - and it was a fairly obvious tactic to avoid the 5m attacking scrum. I’ve been a defender in that situation before, and we’ve yet to see a ref give a penalty for pulling it down if the maul was initiated by a choke tackle.

Maybe you are good at pulling it down illegally and not getting caught.
If that happens in a match I'm thinking first spot the ball, then go back a few steps and check for all the usuals, no leg lifts, no pull downs.

When you spot the ball you should get an indication how likely the attacking team will get it back.

Hands Like Flippers

PENALTY FOR NOT RELEASING

player gets tackled and places ball and is not holding on
First arriving player puts hands on ball however makes no attempt to pick it up
Ref gives penalty

I have seen this time and time again this season. Watched catch up sevens from CG. Sure enough Wales v someone and Tipuric gets a pen despite having made no effort whatsoever to lift the ball even though the tackled player has released.

Surely the jackler should at least be trying to lift it? Some refs give the pen for the set player literally just supporting himself by putting his hands on top of the ball.

I refused to give someone a pen for this a while back and he wasn't happy but when I explained the tackled man had released he accepted it.

Tim Robbins

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

PENALTY FOR NOT RELEASING

player gets tackled and places ball and is not holding on
First arriving player puts hands on ball however makes no attempt to pick it up
Ref gives penalty

I have seen this time and time again this season. Watched catch up sevens from CG. Sure enough Wales v someone and Tipuric gets a pen despite having made no effort whatsoever to lift the ball even though the tackled player has released.

Surely the jackler should at least be trying to lift it? Some refs give the pen for the set player literally just supporting himself by putting his hands on top of the ball.

I refused to give someone a pen for this a while back and he wasn't happy but when I explained the tackled man had released he accepted it.

Good question.

The way I do it is, in general, Jackler has to pump the arms a bit. As it too easy to just put your hands on it. In most matches, they will be quickly be rucked off and then you can explain next downtime why they didn't get it. No easy penalties No. 7, work for them.

If you give them too easily, you will kill the game. Also, if you encourage them to rip, they are more likely to get the turnover, then you have encouraged positive play with no need for your whistle.

If they survive a bit of a clearout and they aren't exactly pumping I'd give the PK. Why? Because if you let it go on too long - someone can get injured.

Also, if a player is clearly isolated, and is two-man tackled, and the jackler gets in quickly you may as well just give it. You are reading the flow of the game and being pedantic in that situation is of no benefit.

LeinsterDub

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Good question.

The way I do it is, in general, Jackler has to pump the arms a bit. As it too easy to just put your hands on it. In most matches, they will be quickly be rucked off and then you can explain next downtime why they didn't get it. No easy penalties No. 7, work for them.

If you give them too easily, you will kill the game. Also, if you encourage them to rip, they are more likely to get the turnover, then you have encouraged positive play with no need for your whistle.

If they survive a bit of a clearout and they aren't exactly pumping I'd give the PK. Why? Because if you let it go on too long - someone can get injured.

Also, if a player is clearly isolated, and is two-man tackled, and the jackler gets in quickly you may as well just give it. You are reading the flow of the game and being pedantic in that situation is of no benefit.

I'm not a ref and I know it's a tough job but I really wish we adopted the southern style here (aka actually following the laws) the ball can't be played on the ground. If someone comes and puts hand on legally then that ball should be theirs no need for pumping and surviving clear outs.

Northern refs sometimes expect the player attempting to steal the ball to pump like mad while being hit by a freight train for a few seconds.

pickarooney

The penalty is not a prize for the jackler, it's a sanction against the tackled player. If he hasn't done anything wrong (e.g. not released) you can't give a penalty.

Hands Like Flippers

Pickarooney

Even the commentators went on about how good Tipuric was at turnovers even though he made no attempt to turn it over.

Tim

I like it.

LeinsterDub

The defender should just pick it up in that case. The game is better when it flows without needless penalties in my view.

LeinsterDub

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

LeinsterDub

The defender should just pick it up in that case. The game is better when it flows without needless penalties in my view.

Pick what up? I don't understand?

The Lost Sheep

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

PENALTY FOR NOT RELEASING

player gets tackled and places ball and is not holding on
First arriving player puts hands on ball however makes no attempt to pick it up
Ref gives penalty

I have seen this time and time again this season. Watched catch up sevens from CG. Sure enough Wales v someone and Tipuric gets a pen despite having made no effort whatsoever to lift the ball even though the tackled player has released.

Surely the jackler should at least be trying to lift it? Some refs give the pen for the set player literally just supporting himself by putting his hands on top of the ball.

I refused to give someone a pen for this a while back and he wasn't happy but when I explained the tackled man had released he accepted it.

That is seen all the time. Most of the time if defender latches onto the ball then i will give the penalty to them but depends on each situation. How long they hold onto ball. If there is opposition there and what they do if there.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Good question.

The way I do it is, in general, Jackler has to pump the arms a bit. As it too easy to just put your hands on it. In most matches, they will be quickly be rucked off and then you can explain next downtime why they didn't get it. No easy penalties No. 7, work for them.

If you give them too easily, you will kill the game. Also, if you encourage them to rip, they are more likely to get the turnover, then you have encouraged positive play with no need for your whistle.

If they survive a bit of a clearout and they aren't exactly pumping I'd give the PK. Why? Because if you let it go on too long - someone can get injured.

Also, if a player is clearly isolated, and is two-man tackled, and the jackler gets in quickly you may as well just give it. You are reading the flow of the game and being pedantic in that situation is of no benefit.

I dont think they should have to pump their arms. All depends on each and every tackle/ruck.

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

The game is better when it flows without needless penalties in my view.

Damn straight. Play advantage as much as possible and only give penalties when you have to/need to. works well for me....

Hands Like Flippers

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

LeinsterDub

The defender should just pick it up in that case. The game is better when it flows without needless penalties in my view.

Pick what up? I don't understand?

The ball. Instead of waiting on a pen.

Tim Robbins

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm not a ref and I know it's a tough job but I really wish we adopted the southern style here (aka actually following the laws) the ball can't be played on the ground. If someone comes and puts hand on legally then that ball should be theirs no need for pumping and surviving clear outs.

Northern refs sometimes expect the player attempting to steal the ball to pump like mad while being hit by a freight train for a few seconds.

If you did that you would either have a very high penalty count and kill the game or you would encourage attacking teams to avoid rucks and they would just end up kicking it at also kill the game.

Now thinking about the laws. A big thing is "materiality". So if the tackled player didn't release the ball what was the consequence of that. Well if the jacklar is ripping you'd say the jacklar would have definitely got it if the ball was released. Similarly, if you just had a few fingers on the ball, you would say he wouldn't have got the ball - so why give him the penalty.

Lastly, the defensive team always have the opportunity to actually ruck. They can drive over the ball instead of trying to jackal. Jackalling is the harder skill and some players things they can do it, but they can't.

If you make it clear there's no easy penalties for fingers on the ball, then you are encouraging a better contest as the team should then try counter rucking.

Tim Robbins

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Tim

I like it.

Well it's the important part of the game to get right. If you don't or you just pedantic, you just p*ss players off; get it right, players get stuck in more and you get a much better game.

Tim Robbins

pickarooney wrote: »

The penalty is not a prize for the jackler, it's a sanction against the tackled player. If he hasn't done anything wrong (e.g. not released) you can't give a penalty.

Have to say the madest situations I was ever in with this was an Under 8's match I was reffing. Yes under 8's. One kid was trying to present the ball and another went into the Jackal position but just put his hands on it.

A few parents / coaches /whoever - started shouting "release, release"...

Hands Like Flippers

Tim Robbins wrote: »

pickarooney wrote: »

The penalty is not a prize for the jackler, it's a sanction against the tackled player. If he hasn't done anything wrong (e.g. not released) you can't give a penalty.

Have to say the madest situations I was ever in with this was an Under 8's match I was reffing. Yes under 8's. One kid was trying to present the ball and another went into the Jackal position but just put his hands on it.

A few parents / coaches /whoever - started shouting "release, release"...

Aye. That is the sort of stuff I have seen as well.

pickarooney

Ive seen under 8s with some amazing skills.

The Lost Sheep

What do people think of changes scottish union are introducing at age grade level for the new season?
Law changes are below
http://www.scottishrugby.org/sites/default/files/editor/docs/aglv_national_trials_2018-19.pdf
and here is the article explaining how there will be further trials in certain areas of the game
http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/18/07/06/scottish-rugby-issue-more-detail-age-grade-law-variations

Cant say i can agree with quite a few of the changes

shoutman

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What do people think of changes scottish union are introducing at age grade level for the new season?
Law changes are below
http://www.scottishrugby.org/sites/default/files/editor/docs/aglv_national_trials_2018-19.pdf
and here is the article explaining how there will be further trials in certain areas of the game
http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/18/07/06/scottish-rugby-issue-more-detail-age-grade-law-variations

Cant say i can agree with quite a few of the changes

I think a lot of these are positive steps by the SRU.

Certainly seem like they are looking to focus on the skills aspect of the game by ensuring that ball is kept alive and in play as much as possible (I.e. pop off the ground & no defensive targeting of the ball)

Will be interesting to see how this works out for them, but certainly think it could be a positive.

Hands Like Flippers

I like them.

I think the tackle height stuff is right.

Discourage dangerous tackles and encourage offloads and passing out of tackles.

Not sure why u15 can only kick between 15's mind.

The Lost Sheep

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

I like them.

I think the tackle height stuff is right.

Discourage dangerous tackles and encourage offloads and passing out of tackles.

Not sure why u15 can only kick between 15's mind.

On the kicking. I can see why u15s take kicks between 15s. Many simply cant get near posts if further out. It should be in place at all u13/14 and first year/second year school games here.
Actually reading the laws properly now i actually do agree with them all.
Wonder if IRFU will ever look at something similar

Hands Like Flippers

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

I like them.

I think the tackle height stuff is right.

Discourage dangerous tackles and encourage offloads and passing out of tackles.

Not sure why u15 can only kick between 15's mind.

On the kicking. I can see why u15s take kicks between 15s. Many simply cant get near posts if further out. It should be in place at all u13/14 and first year/second year school games here.
Actually reading the laws properly now i actually do agree with them all.
Wonder if IRFU will ever look at something similar

Would be good if they did.

On the kicking point i know what you mean but some kids can do it. I saw an u15 kick a touchline conversion from the touchline at kingspan in the u15 medallion final this year. His team won by 2 points. Surely if the kid is good enough and it isnt endangering anyone why not...

The Lost Sheep

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Would be good if they did.

On the kicking point i know what you mean but some kids can do it. I saw an u15 kick a touchline conversion from the touchline at kingspan in the u15 medallion final this year. His team won by 2 points. Surely if the kid is good enough and it isnt endangering anyone why not...

Some can and it should be at discretion of player/coach but in the vast majority of cases the kicks should from the 15m line

BigHeel

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

On the kicking. I can see why u15s take kicks between 15s. Many simply cant get near posts if further out. It should be in place at all u13/14 and first year/second year school games here.
Actually reading the laws properly now i actually do agree with them all.
Wonder if IRFU will ever look at something similar

The IRFU have had similar law variations for quite a while. The difference here is SRU have spaced them out from U8 to U15 while the IRFU have it from U8 to U13. The IRFU introduced the waste high tackle two seasons ago and no tackeling of the ball or ripping up to U12.

The Lost Sheep

BigHeel wrote: »

The IRFU have had similar law variations for quite a while. The difference here is SRU have spaced them out from U8 to U15 while the IRFU have it from U8 to U13. The IRFU introduced the waste high tackle two seasons ago and no tackling of the ball or ripping up to U12.

you mean u12 and have they as from my rather limited experience of mini rugby recently i havent seen that being the case. u13 isnt like that here at all.

BigHeel

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

you mean u12 and have they as from my rather limited experience of mini rugby recently i havent seen that being the case. u13 isnt like that here at all.

check out
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/2016-17_IRFU_Mini_and_Leprechaun_Regulations.pdf