Laws Question? Ask here!

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

They have to be on their feet to arrive at the ruck.... They then ruck defenders and more often than not both players end up on the ground.

If they dive in and prevent a contest by sealing it off then it's a penalty, but as I said I don't think it's a major issue, and is called when it's obvious

Yeah, cheers but I am aware of how a ruck should normally work.... we're talking about two completely different situations, you're discussing a normal ruck whereas I'm talking about a member of the attacking team diving at a ruck to remove a player contesting the ball or a player who is threatening to counter ruck over, definitely not joining on their feet. A couple years ago you saw penalties being blown for clearouts you see every weekend now.

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

Yeah, cheers but I am aware of how a ruck should normally work.... we're talking about two completely different situations, you're discussing a normal ruck whereas I'm talking about a member of the attacking team diving at a ruck to remove a player contesting the ball or a player who is threatening to counter ruck over, definitely not joining on their feet. A couple years ago you saw penalties being blown for clearouts you see every weekend now.

Nope im talking about that exact situation.

Players are taught to clear a ruck like an airplane taking off, so starting low and driving upwards.
You'll often hear he who is lowest wins the ruck.

Its a result of the jackle becoming so prominent in the game thrse days.

30 years ago it didn't feature must at all, as rucks were real wrestling contests

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Nope im talking about that exact situation.

Players are taught to clear a ruck like an airplane taking off, so starting low and driving upwards.
You'll often hear he who is lowest wins the ruck.

Its a result of the jackle becoming so prominent in the game thrse days.

30 years ago it didn't feature must at all, as rucks were real wrestling contests

... but this is not the same thing as a player diving in to a ruck off their feet in order to collapse a player contesting the ball, which is both joining a ruck off your feet and intentionally collapsing a ruck, both of which are illegal.

Captain_Crash

Played a game yesterday and the ref was giving penalties every time a tackled player placed the ball back between their legs (squeezing he called it), I've never in my life seen anyone pinged for it either professional or amateur. Was he making up his own laws with this?

prawnsambo

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Played a game yesterday and the ref was giving penalties every time a tackled player placed the ball back between their legs (squeezing he called it), I've never in my life seen anyone pinged for it either professional or amateur. Was he making up his own laws with this?

It is illegal up to 19s, but in senior rugby only illegal if the ball isn't immediately available. In other words, it has to be passed back quickly or it's holding on.

Edit: Good video examples here.

sydthebeat

prawnsambo wrote: »

It is illegal up to 19s, but in senior rugby only illegal if the ball isn't immediately available. In other words, it has to be passed back quickly or it's holding on.

Edit: Good video examples here.

its my understanding all levels below J1 use these u19s rules
ie no squeeze ball, 1.5 m push on scrums etc.
so its possible the captain was playing at a level below J1

https://rugbyready.worldrugby.org/?section=74&tab=tab-4

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFUAgeGradeVariations201718.pdf

Losty Dublin

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Played a game yesterday and the ref was giving penalties every time a tackled player placed the ball back between their legs (squeezing he called it), I've never in my life seen anyone pinged for it either professional or amateur. Was he making up his own laws with this?

I wonder if you were watching the same game that I was yesterday as the referee penalised a few time for the offence of Squeezeball. Certainly it’s a phrase that I’ve not heard used in maybe a decade now.

The word cropped up in and around 1998. New Zealand teams used to coach players to go to ground face first or even to position themselves that way after a tackle and crounch over the ball to defend at a ruck. Once there you could lay on the ball and either kill a turnover from defenders who couldn’t get at it legally, or you could push the ball out down your torso and under your legs, hence it being called a squeeze ball.

locum-motion

I think I also heard the squeeze ball being referred to as 'long body rucking'.

prawnsambo

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I wonder if you were watching the same game that I was yesterday as the referee penalised a few time for the offence of Squeezeball. Certainly it’s a phrase that I’ve not heard used in maybe a decade now.

The word cropped up in and around 1998. New Zealand teams used to coach players to go to ground face first or even to position themselves that way after a tackle and crounch over the ball to defend at a ruck. Once there you could lay on the ball and either kill a turnover from defenders who couldn’t get at it legally, or you could push the ball out down your torso and under your legs, hence it being called a squeeze ball.

Well it's also a good turnover opportunity for the opposition. If you get over the player and grab them around the arms or arm, you prevent the ball going back and are also very difficult to shift. You see it happen quite regularly, so it's not an ideal method of recycling the ball any more.

Quin_Dub

sydthebeat wrote: »

its my understanding all levels below J1 use these (below) u19s rules
ie no squeeze ball, 1 m push on scrums etc.
so its possible the captain was playing at a level below J1

https://rugbyready.worldrugby.org/?section=74&tab=tab-4

You might be right - Definitely a penalty offence at underage , not sure though it carries through to Junior grades at Adult though..

sydthebeat

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You might be right - Definitely a penalty offence at underage , not sure though it carries through to Junior grades at Adult though..

well the last time i played J2 it was applicable, and that was a couple of years ago.

its not applicable to J1

blackwhite

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You might be right - Definitely a penalty offence at underage , not sure though it carries through to Junior grades at Adult though..

It's an offence at all grades under J1 in Leinster anyway

Losty Dublin

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well it's also a good turnover opportunity for the opposition. If you get over the player and grab them around the arms or arm, you prevent the ball going back and are also very difficult to shift. You see it happen quite regularly, so it's not an ideal method of recycling the ball any more.

Problem is, that’s fine to consider it in theory and when you have old school open side flankers on your team or Sean Cronins carrying in but in practice it is generally rather different when your supporting players aren’t as nimble. More often than not it will be looked at by ref as not letting the man up or playing him on the floor or not staying on your feet. The ball, being under your man, well it’s not quite as obvious a hold so that’s a hard call. And worse again, the players can argument that he was trying to place it and he was interfered with; you can see where this one is going.

This tactic often went on to deliberaly avoid tackles and legal rucks and it encouraged shoeing and charging into rucks and was getting dangerous to ref. Thankfully it was seen off in its worst form.

Captain_Crash

Thanks for the answers, as an aging back this is my first season playing below J1 (J3) so that must be it. Although still haven't seen it pinged this season. I did hear someone after the game saying he was being assessed so maybe being more "by the book" than normal.

sydthebeat

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Thanks for the answers, as an aging back this is my first season playing below J1 (J3) so that must be it. Although still haven't seen it pinged this season. I did hear someone after the game saying he was being assessed so maybe being more "by the book" than normal.

to be honest, its good practise to discourage squeeze ball at lower amateur levels on safety grounds.

Captain_Crash

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be honest, its good practise to discourage squeeze ball at lower amateur levels on safety grounds.

Yeah that's very true to be fair. I never do it on purpose and only if its the easiest way to get the ball to the back. Sometimes you just end up flat on your face haha

NUTLEY BOY

Does a referee's jurisdiction extend beyond the immediate boundaries of the marked playing area ?

I am thinking of the situation where spectators keep encroaching on the playing area or are even attempting to engage in conduct that might interfere with or impede players on the pitch.

Can a referee direct non players to leave the immediate precincts outside of the marked playing area for any reason ?

pickarooney

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Played a game yesterday and the ref was giving penalties every time a tackled player placed the ball back between their legs (squeezing he called it), I've never in my life seen anyone pinged for it either professional or amateur. Was he making up his own laws with this?

Like laying an egg? This is penalisable for player safety in the veterans' matches I (used to) play in in France. Big danger of neck damage, apparently.

Tim Robbins

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Does a referee's jurisdiction extend beyond the immediate boundaries of the marked playing area ?

I am thinking of the situation where spectators keep encroaching on the playing area or are even attempting to engage in conduct that might interfere with or impede players on the pitch.

Can a referee direct non players to leave the immediate precincts outside of the marked playing area for any reason ?

I usually asked them politely to move a safe distance back. They usually do.
If they don't you can ask them to leave area or they will be reported.

Tim Robbins

pickarooney wrote: »

Like laying an egg? This is penalisable for player safety in the veterans' matches I (used to) play in in France. Big danger of neck damage, apparently.

The ball carrier and move away from the ball.
There is nothing in law beyond that. If the jacklar is trying to get the ball and is prevented because ball carrier is has it tucked under his belly you can ping for not releasing.

Tim Robbins

pickarooney wrote: »

Reffed my first training game today and there was one incident where I awarded a try despite some protestations. Player was tackled short of the line and touched the ball down just short of the line. He then pushed/rolled the ball into the line without moving his body or losing control of the ball.

Is this a legitimate repositioning of the ball, a double movement, a knock on or something else?

He can reach out immediately and score that's fine.
He can also slide in via momentum. If it's longer than a second it's a "double movement" in local speak but in law speak it's just not making the ball available to play by others and he's on the ground so can't play it.

The Lost Sheep

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Does a referee's jurisdiction extend beyond the immediate boundaries of the marked playing area?

I am thinking of the situation where spectators keep encroaching on the playing area or are even attempting to engage in conduct that might interfere with or impede players on the pitch.

Can a referee direct non players to leave the immediate precincts outside of the marked playing area for any reason ?

This is the law
https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=1
Yes
Yes a ref can direct non players to leave marked playing field.

ArmchairQB

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Does a referee's jurisdiction extend beyond the immediate boundaries of the marked playing area ?

I am thinking of the situation where spectators keep encroaching on the playing area or are even attempting to engage in conduct that might interfere with or impede players on the pitch.

Can a referee direct non players to leave the immediate precincts outside of the marked playing area for any reason ?

Yeah he can stop the game until spectators coaches etc are back away from touch line

Tim Robbins

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Yeah he can stop the game until spectators coaches etc are back away from touch line

Yeah it's great craic doing that. Especially, the proverbial dog owner.

It's also a very good reason to have someone doig tJ as just them running up and down line helps crowd control.

Losty Dublin

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Does a referee's jurisdiction extend beyond the immediate boundaries of the marked playing area ?

I am thinking of the situation where spectators keep encroaching on the playing area or are even attempting to engage in conduct that might interfere with or impede players on the pitch.

Can a referee direct non players to leave the immediate precincts outside of the marked playing area for any reason ?

The referee has jurisdiction on the ground, which includes the pitch and perimeter. In Law this is called the Playing Enclosure.

Law 1 covers the ground and states that it must be safe.
Law 3 covers the amount of people on the team. An encroachment onto the ground is punishable by the referee; indeed it is actually the first offence in the Law Book. Admittedly this is intended for players only.
Law 6 covers the Referee. A referee permits access to the pitch of players or medics only, save for water carriers at an injury or after a try or a tee carrier for any kicks at goal; they can come on as appropriate.

No other person can enter the playing enclosure. If they interfere with play then the game shall stop and restart when ready. A good captain or coach should be called onto manage same if it's a nuisance as it becomes a safety issue if left to fester. I'd refer to Law 1 here as an immediate fix

Most competitions have local rules that stipulate boundaries or technical area for subs, coaches, medics and other officials. Clubs should adhere to same and should be reported where breached and it becomes a serious issue.

who_me

Wonder what people make of the decision in the Racing Toulon game at the weekend? (Neutral here, not a Scarlets fan whining!) Sorry, I don't have the player names, just saw the incident once.

Racing player has the ball, tackled by Scarlets. A maul/tackle evolves (where it looks like the tackler is holding up the ball-carrier). Referee shouts "release" and the Scarlets players do so. The Racing player regains his balance without going to ground and runs on, resulting in a try to Racing.

This - to me - is surely a mistake by the referee. If the player is deemed to be on the ground - by virtue of his knee etc. being in contact with the ground - then the tackle is complete, and he must release the ball. Even if - in this case - he never at any stage is lying on the ground.

It seems to be a recurring problem - if the tackler releases quickly, the tackled player gets away with getting back up; if they don't they're penalised for holding on too long.

Tim Robbins

who_me wrote: »

Wonder what people make of the decision in the Racing Toulon game at the weekend? (Neutral here, not a Scarlets fan whining!) Sorry, I don't have the player names, just saw the incident once.

Racing player has the ball, tackled by Scarlets. A maul/tackle evolves (where it looks like the tackler is holding up the ball-carrier). Referee shouts "release" and the Scarlets players do so. The Racing player regains his balance without going to ground and runs on, resulting in a try to Racing.

This - to me - is surely a mistake by the referee. If the player is deemed to be on the ground - by virtue of his knee etc. being in contact with the ground - then the tackle is complete, and he must release the ball. Even if - in this case - he never at any stage is lying on the ground.

It seems to be a recurring problem - if the tackler releases quickly, the tackled player gets away with getting back up; if they don't they're penalised for holding on too long.

Good point would be interesting to see clip.

The Lost Sheep

who_me wrote: »

Wonder what people make of the decision in the Racing Toulon game at the weekend? (Neutral here, not a Scarlets fan whining!) Sorry, I don't have the player names, just saw the incident once.

Racing player has the ball, tackled by Scarlets. A maul/tackle evolves (where it looks like the tackler is holding up the ball-carrier). Referee shouts "release" and the Scarlets players do so. The Racing player regains his balance without going to ground and runs on, resulting in a try to Racing.

This - to me - is surely a mistake by the referee. If the player is deemed to be on the ground - by virtue of his knee etc. being in contact with the ground - then the tackle is complete, and he must release the ball. Even if - in this case - he never at any stage is lying on the ground.

It seems to be a recurring problem - if the tackler releases quickly, the tackled player gets away with getting back up; if they don't they're penalised for holding on too long.

would need to see clip. so it was a choke tackle and ref called release as ball carrier got a knee/knees to ground and therefore not maul?
If he wasnt held on ground and ref deemed it fine then play on?
Dont necessarily see this as a problem but do you have a clip or at least idea of time in game it happened?

sydthebeat

who_me wrote: »

Wonder what people make of the decision in the Racing Toulon game at the weekend? (Neutral here, not a Scarlets fan whining!) Sorry, I don't have the player names, just saw the incident once.

Racing player has the ball, tackled by Scarlets. A maul/tackle evolves (where it looks like the tackler is holding up the ball-carrier). Referee shouts "release" and the Scarlets players do so. The Racing player regains his balance without going to ground and runs on, resulting in a try to Racing.

This - to me - is surely a mistake by the referee. If the player is deemed to be on the ground - by virtue of his knee etc. being in contact with the ground - then the tackle is complete, and he must release the ball. Even if - in this case - he never at any stage is lying on the ground.

It seems to be a recurring problem - if the tackler releases quickly, the tackled player gets away with getting back up; if they don't they're penalised for holding on too long.

are you sure it was the racing game?? no tries scored like that from the highlights ive seen

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

would need to see clip. so it was a choke tackle and ref called release as ball carrier got a knee/knees to ground and therefore not maul?
If he wasnt held on ground and ref deemed it fine then play on?
Dont necessarily see this as a problem but do you have a clip or at least idea of time in game it happened?

Well if the ref called 'release' he's deemed it to be a completed tackle which should mean the tackled player places the ball for recycle surely? But as syd says, this doesn't seem to have happened for any of the Racing tries unless it was a phase or two before a try was scored.