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    #1172
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    Thud wrote: »
    If a player dives on the ball how long does he have to get up?

    Near the end of the Leinster v Munster game Madigan tackled Murphy (i think) on the ground, he initially hesitated to allow him get up but Murphy didn't appear to be getting up instantly so Madigan tackled him and referee didn't penalise him.

    Similar situation happened me a few weeks back after chasing a kick fullback dived/slid onto the ball, I didn't tackle player on ground, while I was waiting for him to get up his winger looped around him and he popped the ball to him from the ground. It wasn't instant but was a second or two, could i have tackled or was he allowed to play ball on the ground?

    Law 14.1 applies.

    (a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
    • Get up with the ball • Pass the ball • Release the ball. Sanction: Penalty kick

    The key word is 'immediately'. Most refs will take the view that 'immediately' means not longer than it takes to say 'immediately'.

    You can't tackle him when he's on the ground as that would be a penalty.

    When a guy goes to deck and there is no contest for the ball, a ref is going to allow him longer to play it, on ground of materiality and in the interest of a flowing game.

    Unlike Law 15 (tackle) the player on the ground with the ball is not permitted in law to place the ball or roll it in any direction except forward - once someone is trying to rip, he by definition cannot pass, and must therefore release.

    So what you want to do is immediately play for the ball.

    In the Murphy incident, I think the ref did actually penalise Leinster - I thought Murphy did quite well to draw the penalty.


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    #1173
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    ...In all my years watching and playing rugby I've never seen a referee contradict his touch judges while under the posts...

    Admittedly this is an obscure example, but:

    1983 Leinster Schools Cup Semi-Final, Castleknock v Terenure.

    'knock FB (Karl Rowe, I think, but open to correction coz I might be thinking of the wrong brother) took a kick from immediately in front of the posts, and only brought it out about 10m. Ball was still on upward trajectory when it passed the plane of the line. Looked a bit dubious as to whether it was over or under bar.

    Both TJ's said no goal. Ref said goal.

    Castleknock won the match by 6-4 or 7-6 or some small margin like that.

    On video, afterwards, the ref was proven right.


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    #1174
    defadman
    Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭defadman


    if the ball hits the jacket surrounding the post is it a try?


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    #1175
    kensutz
    Registered Users Posts: 9,186 ✭✭✭kensutz


    defadman wrote: »
    if the ball hits the jacket surrounding the post is it a try?

    The ball needs to be grounded at the base of the posts for a try to be awarded.


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    #1176
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    For a penalty hit from the tee when does the ball come into play, is it possible for the kicker to chip the ball to a teammate.


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    #1177
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    assuming its a kick at goal the ball comes into play as soon as the ball is kicked.

    if you deliberately kick the ball to a teammate after declaring a kick at goal its a scrum or free kick against you. unsportsmanlike behaviour.

    had this a few weeks ago, where the underage kicker was told by the manager who brought on the kicking tee to grubber kick to the corner, he did and i gave a pen against him.

    senior ref afterwards said the correct decision was a scrum/free kick but wouldnt argue too much with a pen decision either.


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    #1178
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    castie wrote: »
    Penalty against me at the weekend.

    Hit the ball up and turned to form a maul.
    Was facing the direction of play and a player lifted my leg.
    He ended up just holding onto my boot with my leg above parallel. (Extremely uncomfortable for a prop!)

    In order to free myself I shook my foot with no success so shook harder.
    Managed to free my foot and the foot made contact with the guys face.
    It was a complete reaction to him letting my leg go.

    Penalised and told be more careful with swinging my foot.

    My question is I would of thought it was the other guy with the dangerous play and I had a right to get myself out of a position that left me well open and liable to a broken leg if someone hits me right.


    As an aside I dont rate this ref anyway.
    He called me over to chat and asked I be more careful.
    I raised that I felt I was in danger and was just protecting myself.
    He said "the player put you down safely you were in no danger".

    It was a maul and I never hit the deck. he gave the penalty while I was still standing. Went to the ground afterwards to stretch out my leg.
    He lifted your leg but couldn't get you to ground? Sounds really weird to me, and you standing there with 1 foot held in the air leaves you open to being clattered into surely?


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    #1179
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    awec wrote: »
    He lifted your leg but couldn't get you to ground? Sounds really weird to me, and you standing there with 1 foot held in the air leaves you open to being clattered into surely?

    One of my players was driving from behind.
    So he hit and lifted the leg but couldnt put me to ground and slipped off and bit and held onto my boot in the air.

    That was my opinion and of course Id rather not get clattered!


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    #1180
    daveharnett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    castie wrote: »
    One of my players was driving from behind.
    So he hit and lifted the leg but couldnt put me to ground and slipped off and bit and held onto my boot in the air.

    That was my opinion and of course Id rather not get clattered!
    Leg up can be a very precarious position in a maul. imo the ref should be giving the 'lifter' one chance to let go, and whistling early if it continues.

    I'd chalk it down to bad reffing in the first instance, and bad luck in the second - barring freak circumstances, when a player's boot makes contact with an opponent's head, he's getting done.

    Still, could be worse - he must have had some understanding of your situation if he didn't go to his pocket.


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    #1181
    daveharnett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    Thud wrote: »
    so was Madigan right or wrong to hit him at the weekend?
    Wrong.
    - The notion that 'you must let him up' is a myth, but:
    - The only thing you are explicitly not allowed to do is fall on him. This would include clattering into him while going to ground.
    Thud wrote: »
    If he's getting up how far up does he have to be before you can hit him?
    'On your feet' means your body weight is supported entirely by your feet.
    Thud wrote: »
    I presume you are supposed to ruck/jackal over him to get the ball if he doesn't get up?
    By all means you jackal over him, hold him down, prevent the offload, look for the ball. Just don't go off your feet yourself, or attempt anything that looks like a tackle (while he's off his feet).


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    #1182
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    daveharnett wrote: »
    Wrong.
    - The notion that 'you must let him up' is a myth, but:
    - You are explicitly not allowed to do is fall on him. This would include clattering into him while going to ground.


    'On your feet' means your body weight is supported entirely by your feet.


    By all means you jackal over him, hold him down, prevent the offload, look for the ball. Just don't go off your feet your feet yourself, or attempt anything that looks like a tackle (while he's off his feet).
    Example: Geoghegan v Underwood. Geoghegan followed up a chase for ball by diving off his feet onto Underwood who had gathered ball on ground. Crowd went wild and emotions ran high. This wave spread to ref who let play go on and Ireland unpenalised for the infringement.
    It happens.


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    #1183
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,095 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    One general question and one specific one.

    1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

    2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?


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    #1184
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

    Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?


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    #1185
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    pickarooney wrote: »
    2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?

    Doesnt look like you did anything wrong to me. You released the player, he released the ball and you took it. Seen Nonu (I think) score a try like that in the world cup. Player went to ground and immediately presented the ball had no support and Nonu picked up the ball and dived over the line.


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    #1186
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    pickarooney wrote: »
    One general question and one specific one.

    1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

    Sounds like a crooked feed to me. Free kick to the side not putting in. If the ref doesn't give this its acceptable for the second rows to control the ball with their feet and one of them should be able to bring the ball to a playable position for the 8/9.

    [QUOTE=pickarooney;78155435
    2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?[/QUOTE]

    There is. You need to fully release the tackled player before playing for the ball. In that position you see players throwing up their arms for an instant to show that they arn't touching him/her and then going back in to play for the ball. Some also shout 'released' as a verbal cue to the ref that they are compliant. It sounds to me like the ref was not happy that you had fully released the tackled player before playing for the ball.


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    #1187
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    MungBean wrote: »
    Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

    Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?

    Agree here.

    You must release the player and allow him a chance to place the ball.
    In my opinion this is a penalty for not releasing.


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    #1188
    Wexfordboy89
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭Wexfordboy89


    a newbie question when did the law change with regards players being able to change which country they play for ie diego dominguez playing a few games for Argentina and then playing for italy.


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    #1189
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Wexfordboy89 wrote: »
    a newbie question when did the law change with regards players being able to change which country they play for ie diego dominguez playing a few games for Argentina and then playing for italy.
    I think it was when professionalism came in.


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    #1190
    Downtime
    Registered Users Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭Downtime


    MungBean wrote: »
    Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

    Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?

    Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.


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    #1191
    daveharnett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    pickarooney wrote: »
    One general question and one specific one.
    1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.
    what should happen? - FK, crooked feed would be my first reaction :D

    20.8
    (b) Striking after the throw-in. Once the ball touches the ground in the tunnel, any front row player may use either foot to try to win possession of the ball.

    While second/back rows are not allowed to use their feet to win possession of the ball, there's nothing in theory or practice to prevent them from feeding the ball back (with their feet!) once it has been won (ie it is behind their front row's feet, where the opposing front row can't reach it).


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    #1192
    BigHeel
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭BigHeel


    Downtime wrote: »
    Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.

    Law 15.6 (c)
    Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    They are obliged to release him.


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    #1193
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,095 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    daveharnett wrote: »
    what should happen? - FK, crooked feed would be my first reaction :D

    20.8
    (b) Striking after the throw-in. Once the ball touches the ground in the tunnel, any front row player may use either foot to try to win possession of the ball.

    While second/back rows are not allowed to use their feet to win possession of the ball, there's nothing in theory or practice to prevent them from feeding the ball back (with their feet!) once it has been won (ie it is behind their front row's feet, where the opposing front row can't reach it).

    I won't hold my breath waiting for the next FK awarded for a crooked feed :D
    Thanks for clearing up the foot striking issue. I think it was Guscott on the BBC website who said that only the hooker was allowed play the ball with his feet. Should have known better than to take the word of a back!


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    #1194
    rje66
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭rje66


    pickarooney wrote: »
    One general question and one specific one.

    1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

    2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?
    When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen?
    Free Kick, crooked feed, and ask scrummie where he left his guide dog:cool::cool:

    Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back
    No, anyone in front row can
    and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.
    Correct

    Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?
    Sounds like you were hard done by. As a tackler who went to ground your only obligation is to release the player or ball and get back to your feet before you try to win possession, if you stay on your feet at a tackle your obligation is to release player and/or ball, and then come from your side of the ball through the gate before you try to win possession of ball. Rem man on feet is king


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    #1195
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Downtime wrote: »
    Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.

    Doesnt matter if you go to ground or not.
    You have to release the tackled player.


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    #1196
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    MungBean wrote: »
    Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

    Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?
    No but for me it's akin to the double movement debate. The referee may decide that though by the letter of the law the tackle was made, momentum brought the player over the touch line.

    Now it's not always that ambiguous. I remember in college tackling a guy on the wing bringing him to ground and in the same movement so to speak heaving him out over the line. The ref awarded us the line out. Another day another ref might have decided I didn't release the player and awarded a penalty. I didn't care, they didn't complain.


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    #1197
    Downtime
    Registered Users Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭Downtime


    castie wrote: »
    Doesnt matter if you go to ground or not.
    You have to release the tackled player.

    I thought only the tackler must release the tackled player. I may be incorrect.


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    #1198
    rje66
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭rje66


    Downtime wrote: »
    I thought only the tackler must release the tackled player. I may be incorrect.

    when you say 'only the tackler' , who are the others?


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    #1199
    Downtime
    Registered Users Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭Downtime


    rje66 wrote: »
    when you say 'only the tackler' , who are the others?

    If a player tackles another player but only the tackled player goes to ground he is not deemed a tackler.


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    #1200
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    Downtime wrote: »
    If a player tackles another player but only the tackled player goes to ground he is not deemed a tackler.

    Yes he is.
    For a person to be tackled there must be a tackler.
    Him going to ground or not does not change this.


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    #1201
    Downtime
    Registered Users Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭Downtime


    castie wrote: »
    Yes he is.
    For a person to be tackled there must be a tackler.
    Him going to ground or not does not change this.

    I see where you are coming from, I disagree that he is 'called' a tackler as this is clearly defined in the law book that if the player who 'tackles' doesn't go to ground he is not called a tackler - law 15 definitions. He must release the tackled player though (I had to check this out) unless he is 'at the gate'.


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