Laws Question? Ask here!

castie · 09-04-2012 02:11AM

awec wrote: »

He lifted your leg but couldn't get you to ground? Sounds really weird to me, and you standing there with 1 foot held in the air leaves you open to being clattered into surely?

One of my players was driving from behind.
So he hit and lifted the leg but couldnt put me to ground and slipped off and bit and held onto my boot in the air.

That was my opinion and of course Id rather not get clattered!

daveharnett · 09-04-2012 09:42PM

castie wrote: »

One of my players was driving from behind.
So he hit and lifted the leg but couldnt put me to ground and slipped off and bit and held onto my boot in the air.

That was my opinion and of course Id rather not get clattered!

Leg up can be a very precarious position in a maul. imo the ref should be giving the 'lifter' one chance to let go, and whistling early if it continues.

I'd chalk it down to bad reffing in the first instance, and bad luck in the second - barring freak circumstances, when a player's boot makes contact with an opponent's head, he's getting done.

Still, could be worse - he must have had some understanding of your situation if he didn't go to his pocket.

daveharnett · 09-04-2012 09:54PM

Thud wrote: »

so was Madigan right or wrong to hit him at the weekend?

Wrong.
- The notion that 'you must let him up' is a myth, but:
- The only thing you are explicitly not allowed to do is fall on him. This would include clattering into him while going to ground.

Thud wrote: »

If he's getting up how far up does he have to be before you can hit him?

'On your feet' means your body weight is supported entirely by your feet.

Thud wrote: »

I presume you are supposed to ruck/jackal over him to get the ball if he doesn't get up?

By all means you jackal over him, hold him down, prevent the offload, look for the ball. Just don't go off your feet yourself, or attempt anything that looks like a tackle (while he's off his feet).

JustinDee · 10-04-2012 07:09AM

daveharnett wrote: »

Wrong.
- The notion that 'you must let him up' is a myth, but:
- You are explicitly not allowed to do is fall on him. This would include clattering into him while going to ground.

'On your feet' means your body weight is supported entirely by your feet.

By all means you jackal over him, hold him down, prevent the offload, look for the ball. Just don't go off your feet your feet yourself, or attempt anything that looks like a tackle (while he's off his feet).

Example: Geoghegan v Underwood. Geoghegan followed up a chase for ball by diving off his feet onto Underwood who had gathered ball on ground. Crowd went wild and emotions ran high. This wave spread to ref who let play go on and Ireland unpenalised for the infringement.
It happens.

pickarooney · 16-04-2012 11:38AM

One general question and one specific one.

1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?

MungBean · 16-04-2012 11:56AM

Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?

MungBean · 16-04-2012 11:59AM

pickarooney wrote: »

2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?

Doesnt look like you did anything wrong to me. You released the player, he released the ball and you took it. Seen Nonu (I think) score a try like that in the world cup. Player went to ground and immediately presented the ball had no support and Nonu picked up the ball and dived over the line.

Reloc8 · 16-04-2012 12:10PM

pickarooney wrote: »

One general question and one specific one.

1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

Sounds like a crooked feed to me. Free kick to the side not putting in. If the ref doesn't give this its acceptable for the second rows to control the ball with their feet and one of them should be able to bring the ball to a playable position for the 8/9.

[QUOTE=pickarooney;78155435
2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?[/QUOTE]

There is. You need to fully release the tackled player before playing for the ball. In that position you see players throwing up their arms for an instant to show that they arn't touching him/her and then going back in to play for the ball. Some also shout 'released' as a verbal cue to the ref that they are compliant. It sounds to me like the ref was not happy that you had fully released the tackled player before playing for the ball.

castie · 17-04-2012 02:23AM

MungBean wrote: »

Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?

Agree here.

You must release the player and allow him a chance to place the ball.
In my opinion this is a penalty for not releasing.

Wexfordboy89 · 17-04-2012 02:24PM

a newbie question when did the law change with regards players being able to change which country they play for ie diego dominguez playing a few games for Argentina and then playing for italy.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 17-04-2012 02:31PM

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

a newbie question when did the law change with regards players being able to change which country they play for ie diego dominguez playing a few games for Argentina and then playing for italy.

I think it was when professionalism came in.

Downtime · 17-04-2012 05:00PM

MungBean wrote: »

Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?

Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.

daveharnett · 18-04-2012 09:52AM

pickarooney wrote: »

One general question and one specific one.
1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

what should happen? - FK, crooked feed would be my first reaction

20.8
(b) Striking after the throw-in. Once the ball touches the ground in the tunnel, any front row player may use either foot to try to win possession of the ball.

While second/back rows are not allowed to use their feet to win possession of the ball, there's nothing in theory or practice to prevent them from feeding the ball back (with their feet!) once it has been won (ie it is behind their front row's feet, where the opposing front row can't reach it).

BigHeel · 18-04-2012 12:41PM

Downtime wrote: »

Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.

Law 15.6 (c)
Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

They are obliged to release him.

pickarooney · 18-04-2012 01:23PM

daveharnett wrote: »

what should happen? - FK, crooked feed would be my first reaction

20.8
(b) Striking after the throw-in. Once the ball touches the ground in the tunnel, any front row player may use either foot to try to win possession of the ball.

While second/back rows are not allowed to use their feet to win possession of the ball, there's nothing in theory or practice to prevent them from feeding the ball back (with their feet!) once it has been won (ie it is behind their front row's feet, where the opposing front row can't reach it).

I won't hold my breath waiting for the next FK awarded for a crooked feed

Thanks for clearing up the foot striking issue. I think it was Guscott on the BBC website who said that only the hooker was allowed play the ball with his feet. Should have known better than to take the word of a back!

rje66 · 19-04-2012 10:37PM

pickarooney wrote: »

One general question and one specific one.

1. When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen? Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

2. Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?

When the ball is fed into the scrum and it lands behind the hooker, near the feet of the second rows, what should happen?

Free Kick, crooked feed, and ask scrummie where he left his guide dog:cool::cool:

Technically only the hooker is allowed to heel the ball back

No, anyone in front row can

and nobody is allowed handle it at this stage.

Correct

Game at the weekend, opposition player running down the wing and I was last defensive cover. I picked him up and placed him on the ground (he was about 1m55 and 65kg!) without going off my feet. He released the ball and I leaned over him and picked it up and got penalised. What's the correct thing to do in this situation, given that the rest of the players were some distance away still? Is there some way of disengaging from the tackle and re-engaging as a non-tackler or do you have to just wait for the posse to show up?

Sounds like you were hard done by. As a tackler who went to ground your only obligation is to release the player or ball and get back to your feet before you try to win possession, if you stay on your feet at a tackle your obligation is to release player and/or ball, and then come from your side of the ball through the gate before you try to win possession of ball. Rem man on feet is king

castie · 21-04-2012 03:33PM

Downtime wrote: »

Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.

Doesnt matter if you go to ground or not.
You have to release the tackled player.

MyKeyG · 21-04-2012 05:36PM

MungBean wrote: »

Something I've noticed a bit lately is players being forced into touch after being brought to ground.

Is this legal ? You make a tackle, bring the player to the ground, fail to release and drag or push them into touch. I thought once you go to ground you have to release the player and others cannot tackle a player on the ground. Is there an exception to the rule ?

No but for me it's akin to the double movement debate. The referee may decide that though by the letter of the law the tackle was made, momentum brought the player over the touch line.

Now it's not always that ambiguous. I remember in college tackling a guy on the wing bringing him to ground and in the same movement so to speak heaving him out over the line. The ref awarded us the line out. Another day another ref might have decided I didn't release the player and awarded a penalty. I didn't care, they didn't complain.

Downtime · 22-04-2012 06:44PM

castie wrote: »

Doesnt matter if you go to ground or not.
You have to release the tackled player.

I thought only the tackler must release the tackled player. I may be incorrect.

rje66 · 22-04-2012 09:05PM

Downtime wrote: »

I thought only the tackler must release the tackled player. I may be incorrect.

when you say 'only the tackler' , who are the others?

Downtime · 22-04-2012 10:52PM

rje66 wrote: »

when you say 'only the tackler' , who are the others?

If a player tackles another player but only the tackled player goes to ground he is not deemed a tackler.

castie · 23-04-2012 02:14AM

Downtime wrote: »

If a player tackles another player but only the tackled player goes to ground he is not deemed a tackler.

Yes he is.
For a person to be tackled there must be a tackler.
Him going to ground or not does not change this.

Downtime · 23-04-2012 08:57AM

castie wrote: »

Yes he is.
For a person to be tackled there must be a tackler.
Him going to ground or not does not change this.

I see where you are coming from, I disagree that he is 'called' a tackler as this is clearly defined in the law book that if the player who 'tackles' doesn't go to ground he is not called a tackler - law 15 definitions. He must release the tackled player though (I had to check this out) unless he is 'at the gate'.

tolosenc · 23-04-2012 12:58PM

Pinged at the weekend over something that I'm unsure of. Do there have to be players from both teams there for it to be a ruck? There was none from my team (defence) and I thought that that meant that the ball was out, so went for it.

Shelflife · 23-04-2012 01:38PM

If it was originally a ruck and then all your team pull out , its still deemed to be a ruck.

tolosenc · 23-04-2012 01:46PM

Thanks.

Maybe an ELV. Would encourage players to roll away, and would speed up play as a result.

For Paws · 23-04-2012 01:59PM

Downtime wrote: »

Interesting question. If you go to ground you are a tackler and must release the tackled player. If you do not go to ground but bring that player to ground you are not obliged to release him as you are not a tackler so I would assume you can drag him into touch. I cant see anywhere where it says you cannot.

Once a player in possession of the ball is brought to ground, the tackler (whether he is on his feet or not) must release him, and allow him to release / place the ball.

Downtime · 23-04-2012 03:06PM

For Paws wrote: »

Once a player in possession of the ball is brought to ground, the tackler (whether he is on his feet or not) must release him, and allow him to release / place the ball.

I misread a piece of law an in my search saw 15.6 (c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

daveharnett · 23-04-2012 04:29PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Pinged at the weekend over something that I'm unsure of. Do there have to be players from both teams there for it to be a ruck?

Yes. If there are no defenders, then it's not a ruck, just a 'tackle area'.

A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.
Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

What you got pinged for (probably, I wasn't there

)

15.6
(d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

For those who don't speak IRB, that means the gate applies to the tackle area, even if there's no ruck. Tacklers are excepted - if they can get back on their feet before a ruck forms, they can jackal from any angle.

tolosenc · 23-04-2012 11:37PM

So, not obliged to stay on my feet, as if diving on a loose ball, but just have to come through the gate?

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