Pro Wrestling and MMA

Fozzy

rovert wrote: »

Moving on from this anyone else excited about the possibility of Bryan Danielson breaking into MMA? As he is currently training at Xtreme Couture six days a week and is planning on moving over to Thailand to train Muay Thai for three months? Itll fun to see a non monster Pro Wrestler break into MMA for a change.

I'd love to see him do well in whatever he does, he's just such a great and talented guy, but I worry for him. He's suffered so many concussions and injuries in the relatively controlled environment of pro wrestling that I'm not sure how well he'd hold up in MMA

Still, he's a very intelligent man and I'm sure he'll be smart about it. But the day that Bryan stops wrestling, the business dies a little

He's a very good example of someone who has taken MMA influences and applied them to pro wrestling

roo1981

cowzerp wrote: »

Lost? you,ve got to be joking-there is no argument,..

Clearly, there is, as-

cowzerp wrote: »

im just saying my piece and dont agree with the pro wrestling belief that it plays an important role in MMA

We're disagreeing with you and your putting points forward as to why you disagree with us. As such, this could be defined as an 'arguement' (well a debate anyhow, theres no fisticuffs or bad intentions in it, so maybe not a real 'arguement')

cowzerp wrote: »

and regardless of all this-it plays no part in MMA now anyway so the whole debate is pointless, fixed fights are fixed fights and it does not matter if there in america or japan, i dont see how this is related to MMA just because they might have made it a bit more realistic than the wwe.

Again, fair play Paul for completely ignoring everything thats been posted in the thread so far. Roper even agreed with us earlier having read and taken on board some of our points. Fixed fights arent the issue here, (fixed fights in MMA is another thread in its own right) and we're not saying pro wrestling is an all emcompassing integral part of MMA-We're just saying that MMA's development has been influenced by it at various points over the last few years, and that SOME pro wrestlers have competed in and proven to be successful in MMA using true 'shoot' style pro wrestling techniques.

cowzerp wrote: »

You dont have to justify your love for muscled men playing games with each other to me,

Pretty childish comeback, but oddly enough a lot of people who dont train or follow the sport seem to level this one at me when I tell them I train MMA\Sub Wrestling\BJJ-probably for different reasons mind you :rolleyes: but the infancy of the comment remains...

cowzerp wrote: »

but some people say men never grow up so maybe im out of touch..

Have you met any of my ex girlfriends, they say that all the time

roo1981

live2thewire wrote: »

the ammount of ignorance on behalf of mma blow ins is rediculous.

Just finished typing my other post when I saw this one...whos an MMA blow in? I've been watching the sport for the last 8 odd years and have been training for about the last 4. I havent watched a Pro Wrestling (i.e. WWE) show since I started watching MMA, and as I said previously, wouldnt consider myself a fan of its current incarnation.

At the same time, I appreciate old school shoot, catch and pro wrestling as art forms as much as I do BJJ.

Roper

Just to clarify, I wasn't agreeing that there was any influence in fighting style in MMA, just that the two share more than I'd originally realised from a standpoint of promotion, fighters crossing over and certainly in Japan the line is blurry between the two.

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

I'd love to see him do well in whatever he does, he's just such a great and talented guy, but I worry for him. He's suffered so many concussions and injuries in the relatively controlled environment of pro wrestling that I'm not sure how well he'd hold up in MMA

Well at least MMA doesnt tolerate those headbutts he was doing it his matches with Nigel McGuinness. Thank God.

For people who don’t know who Bryan Danielson is. He is widely regarded as the best technical pro wrestler in the world. He is also known for incredible and times disturbing amounts of realism in his matches. He is as far from the WWE stereotype as probably most of you have seen. IF he can transfer his technique to MMA he could be someone genuinely who could make a mark. He is 5ft 9in and 185lb not sure if he has a background in legitimate sports.

Fozzy

rovert wrote: »

not sure if he has a background in legitimate sports.

He was training BJJ a few years ago, he said that he entered some amateur tournaments and did well

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote:

Lost? you,ve got to be joking-there is no argument, a few lads who want to make out there been fans of pro wrestling sound less nerdy by linking it with MMA does not make me lose an argument that im not part of anyway, im just saying my piece and dont agree with the pro wrestling belief that it plays an important role in MMA,

I’m trying to figure out whether you simply haven’t read the posts or you just didn’t understand them.

cowzerp wrote:

and regardless of all this-it plays no part in MMA now anyway so the whole debate is pointless, fixed fights are fixed fights and it does not matter if there in america or japan, i dont see how this is related to MMA just because they might have made it a bit more realistic than the wwe

In that case you should probably read some of the posts in this thread, I’m sure you’d find it quiet informative.

cowzerp wrote:

You dont have to justify your love for muscled men playing games with each other to me, its just not my cup of tea since i was about 10.

I don’t try and justify my love of muscled men playing games to anyone, I love it and that’s the end of it. That said, I’m not really a fan of pro-wrestling. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen it.

cowzerp wrote:

but some people say men never grow up so maybe im out of touch..

That coming from the lad using the ‘what you like is gay’ line of argument is pretty funny. LMAO.

the ammount of ignorance on behalf of mma blow ins is rediculous.

Ah here, no need for that. Paul has been training MMA for a few years now in fairness.

cowzerp

Tim i dont think your understanding my belief, in a fighting sense MMA is essentially Boxing, thai boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, and a few versions of each, i dont think pro wrestling borrows its skills to MMA, If anything the individual skills are used in an acting manner by pro wrestling, now if a pro wrestler who learned BJJ from another pro wrestler does MMA its still bjj-it has not turned into Pro wrestling.

I read the propaganda from the pro wrestling perspective and dont buy it, do you think that pro wrestling has helped your MMA game Tim?

if so-why?

A well known irish pro wrestler used to chat to me all the time about his fights like as if he done mma and it was embarrising tbh! i admire the athlethism but it should be compared to the circus more than MMA.

I'd like to see an open poll on the forum to see who feels pro wrestling is important to MMA.

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

Tim i dont think your understanding my belief, in a fighting sense MMA is essentially Boxing, thai boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, and a few versions of each, i dont think pro wrestling borrows its skills to MMA,

Right, you don't think the training done by shootfighters/wrestlers in Japan back in the day had any influence as to how what we now call MMA was trained?

cowzerp wrote: »

I read the propaganda from the pro wrestling perspective and dont buy it, do you think that pro wrestling has helped your MMA game Tim?

Haven't never done pro-wrestling, I have no idea what the question means. I did learn the Triangle from watching Undertaker do it and I've used that in a few fights. Does that count? :pac:

cowzerp wrote: »

A well known irish pro wrestler used to chat to me all the time about his fights like as if he done mma and it was embarrising tbh!

That's fairly funny alright.

cowzerp wrote: »

I'd like to see an open poll on the forum to see who feels pro wrestling is important to MMA.

That's a completely different subject to what the guys have been talking about tbh. I really don't think you get what they are saying and you are rushing to put down PW without actually giving much thought to what is being said.

Fozzy

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

That's a completely different subject to what the guys have been talking about tbh. I really don't think you get what they are saying and you are rushing to put down PW without actually giving much thought to what is being said.

I think that this is the case. I've never said anything here about pro wrestlers training pro wrestling and using that as a fighting style.

The essential point that you're missing is that there were pro wrestlers who trained in realistic fighting techniques (wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu, karate, etc). They trained them in the same fashion that MMA is trained (before modern MMA existed). They used the techniques in pro wrestling matches and became big stars doing that. They then began to do MMA and they were the guys who were the most successful, with the techniques that they learned for the specific purpose of pro wrestling. Don't think that just any skilled fighters could have come along and created a booming MMA industry like they did. The reason that they were afforded those opportunities was because they were already big stars from pro wrestling

cowzerp, is there any sentence in that last paragraph that you disagree with?

cowzerp

Fozzy wrote: »

I think that this is the case. I've never said anything here about pro wrestlers training pro wrestling and using that as a fighting style.

The essential point that you're missing is that there were pro wrestlers who trained in realistic fighting techniques (wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu, karate, etc). They trained them in the same fashion that MMA is trained (before modern MMA existed). They used the techniques in pro wrestling matches and became big stars doing that. They then began to do MMA and they were the guys who were the most successful, with the techniques that they learned for the specific purpose of pro wrestling. Don't think that just any skilled fighters could have come along and created a booming MMA industry like they did. The reason that they were afforded those opportunities was because they were already big stars from pro wrestling

cowzerp, is there any sentence in that last paragraph that you disagree with?

Thats summed up better, the training that allowed them to do MMA was from the arts such as judo, wrestling etc..

So basically they where the names and the 1st to do MMA in japan, thats fair enough, So these lads learned MMA for fake reasons and then used them in the future for real reasons, Pro wrestling got them training this way in japan so desrves credit for that, In the states MMA came directly from the individual arts.

Tim, i would of thought Mark taught you the triangle choke.

arybvtcw0eolkf

rovert wrote: »

For people who don’t know who Bryan Danielson is. He is widely regarded as the best technical pro wrestler in the world. He is also known for incredible and times disturbing amounts of realism in his matches. .

So what your saying is he's not a bad actor?.

.

Fozzy

It was summed up the same way before, you just kept ignoring it

cowzerp wrote: »

In the states MMA came directly from the individual arts.

Again, this has been addressed before and it's not quite that simple. Ken Shamrock was a big part of early US MMA and he was trained the same way as the guys in Japan. And the issue of pre-1930s pro wrestling which was essentially MMA in a lot of cases, although I accept that that doesn't have much to do with the modern game as there was a gap of 70 years or so there

cowzerp

Fozzy wrote: »

It was summed up the same way before, you just kept ignoring it

Lets get 1 thing straight, this thread started out about kane from american wrestling and tim sylvia from american MMA and the name changed, i never discussed jap wrestling, either way Submission wrestling is huge in japan anyway and im sure the pro wrestlers came from this initially anyway..

I dont care for pro wrestling and it will not effect MMA in the future and its effect in America which is the leader of mma is zilch, also MMA everywhere else bar Japan the same is true..

Anyway i accept your points but just put it down to MMA starting up in japan and the ready made names taking advantage of this and getting in as the big ready made names.. They obviously fought for real then and ditched the pro wrestling in the ring.

It had to start somewhere after all..

Kent Brockman

rovert wrote: »

I’m actually annoyed by you labelling it a heap of ****e as there are some posters at least using factual historical information in this discussion. It maybe it is tedious as they have often have to reply multiple to people who stonewall (rarely without any historical information of their own to add) any connection between the two.

Appologies for that:o Didnt mean to disrespect some very well-informed posts. Was just a bit pissed off as the discussion seemed to be going in circles and I wasn't sure wht was meant by 'pro-wrestling'. Think I will just 'skulk' for the time being:D

rovert

No worries Kent

Kent Brockman wrote: »

Was just a bit pissed off as the discussion seemed to be going in circles

Good to see we have moved on from that today :pac:

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote:

Tim, i would of thought Mark taught you the triangle choke.

Then you'd have thought wrong.

judomick

rovert wrote: »

I said Maeda was an example. He pioneered judo in Brazil after honing his craft in Wrestling tournments around the world.


.

elaborate please?

from this quote it appears your saying Maeda's judo skills are a result of fighting exhibition matches?

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Then you'd have thought wrong.

cool, so if were down to fight or any of my fighters i'll just study up on a few undertaker highlights to prepare.

Pride Fighter

How can anyone not be aware of the debt MMA owes to Pro Wrestling. Here are some clips.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daI3yPXAYK0
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5stepCArpl8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk2gsNUd3CY

Anybody look familiar in those links

mickoo

Scarlet for the people who support that stuff-:D

These lads train MMA and use it in pro wrestling and Pro wrestling gets the credit instead of sub wrestling and whatever striking art they trained getting it.

MMA was already in the states before japan so they copied the yanks and just used the ready made names for there MMA shows.

Fozzy

mickoo wrote: »

Scarlet for the people who support that stuff-:D

Like the dozens of UFC fighters who have done pro wrestling over the years?

mickoo wrote: »

These lads train MMA and use it in pro wrestling and Pro wrestling gets the credit instead of sub wrestling and whatever striking art they trained getting it.

MMA was already in the states before japan so they copied the yanks and just used the ready made names for there MMA shows.

You haven't read the whole thread, have you?...

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

cool, so if were down to fight or any of my fighters i'll just study up on a few undertaker highlights to prepare.

As good a way to prepare as any.

Mickoo wrote:

MMA was already in the states before japan so they copied the yanks and just used the ready made names for there MMA shows.

Nope. Ken Shamrock had competed in Japen prior to competing in UFC 1.

Fozzy

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Nope. Ken Shamrock had competed in Japen prior to competing in UFC 1.

He was originally chosen for UFC 1 because they thought that he was "just" a pro wrestler with no actual functional training

mickoo

Fozzy wrote: »

In all seriousness, in Japan pro wrestling is considered as legitimate a martial art as any and pro wrestlers are considered to be some of the toughest guys around. There's a big difference between their style of pro wrestling and the major style in North America today though

Much of what Josh Barnett does is what Billy Robinson used to do in pro wrestling matches

I,ve read from the start and this is the sort of stuff thats wrong with this topic

They might have trained legit martial arts but pro wrestling is not a martial art unless bad acting has become a martial art in the last while-:p

Why dont you accept it for what it is? Pretend fighting
the techniques are not pro wrestling but look more like judo, sambo, kickboxing an all

thats why these pro wrestlers could move to mma and the pro wrestlers in america cant, bar the brock and he's a top amateur wrestler so pro wrestling does not come into it with him.

Edit: Pride fighter-Josh barnett was an mma fighter before he got into pro wrestling in japan.

Fozzy

mickoo wrote: »

They might have trained legit martial arts but pro wrestling is not a martial art unless bad acting has become a martial art in the last while-:p

Perhaps it might help if I asked a simple question: for what purpose were these guys learning what eventually came to be known as MMA?

No one here has claimed that pro wrestling is a martial art, apart from the very first post which was tongue in cheek. The point is that it was from the pro wrestling training that MMA was born in Japan. These guys wouldn't have been cross-training in all these arts if it weren't for pro wrestling

The bad acting comment leads me to believe that after all the disassociating from WWE that has been done in this thread, you've just ignored it. There is a massive world of pro wrestling outside of WWE, don't let that one company cloud your judgment

mickoo wrote: »

thats why these pro wrestlers could move to mma and the pro wrestlers in america cant, bar the brock and he's a top amateur wrestler so pro wrestling does not come into it with him.

So? What does this have to do with anything that I've said? The majority of pro wrestling in the US isn't the same as pro wrestling in the rest of the world

mickoo wrote: »

Edit: Pride fighter-Josh barnett was an mma fighter before he got into pro wrestling in japan.

And who did Josh learn his catch-wrestling from? Did you read what he had to say about this topic in one of the articles that I linked to earlier?

rovert

Seriously mickoo I’m asking you to actually read the thread as much of what said indicates to me that you didn’t even bother. I don’t mind if you disagree but at least disagree with the points made instead of making broad, incorrect and frankly ignorant statements. Then we can have something resembling an actual discussion.

judomick wrote: »

elaborate please?

from this quote it appears your saying Maeda's judo skills are a result of fighting exhibition matches?

Not exactly but he did go to Europe so he could specfically cross train with a troupe of Wrestlers. His association with Tsunejiro Tomita ended as result of Maeda's association with Pro Wrestlers and prizefigthers in America.

Pride Fighter

mickoo wrote: »

Edit: Pride fighter-Josh barnett was an mma fighter before he got into pro wrestling in japan.

He did amateur wrestling as a kid, like a lot of US fighters did. Then he learned catch wrestling which has submissions, real BJJ like submissions, with an emphasis on leg locks. Catch wrestling trained properly is like submission wrestling. In pro wrestling they add acrobatics and pull their punches and submissions but catch wrestling the wrestling style practiced by most pro wrestlers is as good as BJJ, I kid you not.

Tim_Murphy

the techniques are not pro wrestling but look more like judo, sambo, kickboxing an all

The same is true for MMA. There are no 'MMA' techniques, only wrestling, boxing etc. What's your point?

dunkamania

I think this thread has run its course, and should probably crawl of to somewhere dark to die. I wont close it yet, but......