Pro Wrestling and MMA

Fall_Guy

rovert wrote: »

I disagree that there has been points missed on my "side" if anything I wish the other side would make a reasonable point other than just making generalisations about something they don’t understand. If after x amount of posts you can only think and not know that he is taking exception to the implication that the fundementals of MMA as a discipline are influenced by pro-wrestling then obviously he did a poor job making his point. If cowzerp and yourself read the thread you would have seen Fozzy's post about Mitsuya Maeda and is influence on the Gracies for example you would see that the point you think he is making is incorrect.



That is why I referred to it as an influence. It being an influence means it did contribute to the evolution of MMA as a multi-range discipline and as a business.

Fozzy said that Maeda used pro-wrestling tours to make money. I am not arguing that there is not a crossover between practitioners of legitimate fighting arts and pro-wrestling! The fact that Maeda wrestled to fund his other endeavours does not mean pro-wrestling contributed to his fighting techniques! MMA and pro wrestling are linked historically by figures who crossed over into both arenas, but pro-wrestling has not contributed to the development of MMA as a sporting dicipline. Unless ofcourse you are claiming that because Maeda worked pro-wrestling shows he was able to fund other projects, that allowed him to have an impact on the gracies, without which UFC would not exist......if Maeda had funded himself by giving blowjobs would we be claiming that blowjobs have influenced the development of MMA as a multi-ranged discipline?

Various fighting arts have influenced the development of MMA as we know it. First BJJ. Then wrestlers developed some sub-defense and introduced ground and pound and the game had to adapt. Strikers adapted by improving their wrestling and all of a sudden sprawl-and-brawlers made the game adapt so wrestlers not only needed sub defense but some level of striking aswell. Now we are starting to see the era of fully-rounded MMA fighters who are comfortable in all ranges. I expect to see this trend continuing, only with the calibre of athlete improving as better athletes choose MMA as a sport to focus on ahead of traditionally more popular sports. Nowhere in this evolution do I see pro-wrestling as having a direct influence on how the sport has changed.

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Fozzy said that Maeda used pro-wrestling tours to make money. I am not arguing that there is not a crossover between practitioners of legitimate fighting arts and pro-wrestling! The fact that Maeda wrestled to fund his other endeavours does not mean pro-wrestling contributed to his fighting techniques! MMA and pro wrestling are linked historically by figures who crossed over into both arenas, but pro-wrestling has not contributed to the development of MMA as a sporting dicipline. Unless ofcourse you are claiming that because Maeda worked pro-wrestling shows he was able to fund other projects, that allowed him to have an impact on the gracies, without which UFC would not exist......if Maeda had funded himself by giving blowjobs would we be claiming that blowjobs have influenced the development of MMA as a multi-ranged discipline?

I said Maeda was an example. He pioneered judo in Brazil after honing his craft in Wrestling tournments around the world. He didnt just do it for pay he did it to cross train with Pro Wrestlers.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Various fighting arts have influenced the development of MMA as we know it. First BJJ. Then wrestlers developed some sub-defense and introduced ground and pound and the game had to adapt. Strikers adapted by improving their wrestling and all of a sudden sprawl-and-brawlers made the game adapt so wrestlers not only needed sub defense but some level of striking aswell. Now we are starting to see the era of fully-rounded MMA fighters who are comfortable in all ranges. I expect to see this trend continuing, only with the calibre of athlete improving as better athletes choose MMA as a sport to focus on ahead of traditionally more popular sports. Nowhere in this evolution do I see pro-wrestling as having a direct influence on how the sport has changed.

Sorry but read the thread and look at the Sherdog forum with the article. We are going round in circles. If you want an ultra modern illustration look at Jon Jones's last UFC fight in the post fight interview he said he Youtubes Pro Wrestling for ideas for throws.

cowzerp

Genuine thanks to fall guy for putting my points across better than i did myself, i'm sure if other people had actually read them they would have understood them though-peace.

Fall_Guy

rovert wrote: »

I said Maeda was an example. He pioneered judo in Brazil after honing his craft in Wrestling tournments around the world. He didnt just do it for pay he did it to cross train with Pro Wrestlers.



Sorry but read the thread and look at the Sherdog forum with the article. We are going round in circles. If you want an ultra modern illustration look at Jon Jones's last UFC fight in the post fight interview he said he googles Pro Wrestling for ideas for throws.

You pointed me to Fozzy's pont about Maeda and I repeated what he said. There is no mention of Maeda seeking to cross-train with pro-wrestlers (for any reason other than money).

I heard Jones say that and i thought it was strange to be honest, as most of the interesting throws in pro-wrestling are just exaggerated amateur or judo throws from what i have seen. Firemans carries, suplexes, hip throws etc...I doubt he'll find much that is practical that he would not see on youtube compilations of spectacular amateur or judo throws.

I've read the thread. I've read the article linked to. I have yet to be given any reason to believe that mma has been influenced by pro-wrestling bell to bell. Yes, there are historical links and similarities in promotional style but they are completely different disciplines, end of story.

cowzerp

Genuine thanks to fall guy for putting my points across better than i did myself, i'm sure if other people had actually read them they would have understood them though-peace.

Fall_Guy

To be honest, cowzerp, often when people have an idea fixed in their head they will only see what they want to see. A lot of the mma fans who are also big preo-wrestling fans feel a need to try and legitimise pro wrestling for some reason. It is its own thing, entertainment with a very high athletic value. MMA is an athletic competition between two fighters with a high level of entertainment value.

Fozzy

I wouldn't dismiss pro wrestling as an influence on the actual fighting in MMA. Modern MMA began in 1993, with the first UFC, right? Before that there had been pro wrestling matches that were very similar to MMA matches featuring wrestlers who were able to use their pro wrestling skills for legitimate purposes

I can't stress enough how different the style of pro wrestling in Japan that I'm talking about is to stuff like WWE. They wanted it to look real, so they used things that worked for real. This included a lot of throws and submission holds. When MMA took off in Japan, this was the kind of thing that the fighters used in their fights, because they knew that it worked. I'm going to have to post some videos later to show just how similar the pro wrestling looked to the early Japanese MMA

It was through pro wrestling that all the fighters who I mentioned by name in my last post got their fighting style. Pretty much everything that they did in their MMA careers, they had already done in their pro wrestling careers

I don't want to credit pro wrestling with everything a guy like Ken Shamrock was able to do in the cage, but he did learn a lot that benefitted him in his MMA career from his pro wrestling training in Japan

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

You pointed me to Fozzy's pont about Maeda and I repeated what he said. There is no mention of Maeda seeking to cross-train with pro-wrestlers (for any reason other than money).

I used Maeda as an example there is more than him. But you did say.

The fact that Maeda wrestled to fund his other endeavours does not mean pro-wrestling contributed to his fighting techniques

Hence my reply in correction of

He didnt just do it for pay he did it to cross train with Pro Wrestlers.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I heard Jones say that and i thought it was strange to be honest, as most of the interesting throws in pro-wrestling are just exaggerated amateur or judo throws from what i have seen. Firemans carries, suplexes, hip throws etc...I doubt he'll find mush that is practical that he would not see on youtube compilations of spectacular amateaur or judo throws.

Regardless what you think (I mean this in the nicest way possible) he is a high grade amateur wrestler who was looking to Pro Wrestling for ideas. That should at least tell you something.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I've read the thread. I've read the article linked to. I have yet to be given any reason to believe that mma has been influenced by pro-wrestling bell to bell. Yes, there are historical links and similarities in promotional style but they are completely different disciplines, end of story.

Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson would disagree. As would Ken Shamrock as his only training for MMA was a pro wrestler in Japan who trained with pro wrestling shooters when he started doing real matches.

cowzerp wrote: »

Genuine thanks to fall guy for putting my points across better than i did myself, i'm sure if other people had actually read them they would have understood them though-peace.

If you are talking about me I answered them pretty much point by point. Give me an example of a point you made I and my "side" missed. The one about Superman. :rolleyes:

I don’t want to get combative pardon the pun but come on.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

To be honest, cowzerp, often when people have an idea fixed in their head they will only see what they want to see. A lot of the mma fans who are also big preo-wrestling fans feel a need to try and legitimise pro wrestling for some reason. It is its own thing, entertainment with a very high athletic value. MMA is an athletic competition between two fighters with a high level of entertainment value.

Personally I’m not looking to legitimise Pro Wrestling. I’m fine with that when it comes to legitimacy they are for the most part separate entities. To me most current or former Pro Wrestling fans can much easier see the woods from the trees when comes to the similarities and influences. So called "True MMA fans" as they brand themselves on the likes of Sherdog etc for some reason take massive umbridge about anyone making any connection between the two combat genres let’s just call them regardless how much evidence there is to the point of extreme ignorance. The history of MMA being influenced in whatever form by Pro Wrestling doesn’t make MMA any less legitimate as a whole if it did then I would question the validity as a sport.

Fall_Guy

OK, Japanese wrestling that was meant to look real simulated real moves. I accept this. But they did not create them, merely simulated the use of judo/wrestling/striking arts techniques in order to make the fight more realistic. They were influenced by the same disciplines that shape MMA as it has come to be known. Because MMA and some forms of pro-wrestling have been influenced (to varying degrees) by the same fighting arts it does not follow that worked shoot fights in Japan influenced MMA technique, they merely borrow from the same sources in some cases.

If, as has already been pointed out, many of the japanese wrestlers had legitimate judo backgrounds, the fact that ken shamrock had "only" learned from pro-wrestling shooters again does not mean he has a debt to pro-wrestling, but the individuals who had a nackground in a legitimate discipline who also happened to be pro wrestlers.

rovert

First off I just like to follow on from what Fozzy wrote the distinction of real and fake in the influencial years of Japanese Pro Wrestling was very much by degree not just two ends of a spectrum like it was in America during the same era. Hence you had worked shoot promotions (MMA basicially with pre determined finishes), strong style (as if real) Pro Wrestling etc.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

OK, Japanese wrestling that was meant to look real simulated real moves. I accept this. But they did not create them, merely simulated the use of judo/wrestling/striking arts techniques in order to make the fight more realistic. They were influenced by the same disciplines that shape MMA as it has come to be known. Because MMA and some forms of pro-wrestling have been influenced (to varying degrees) by the same fighting arts it does not follow that worked shoot fights in Japan influenced MMA technique, they merely borrow from the same sources in some cases.

But both didn’t just spilt off at the source they cross pollinated each other a number of times in numerous ways.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

If, as has already been pointed out, many of the japanese wrestlers had legitimate judo backgrounds, the fact that ken shamrock had "only" learned from pro-wrestling shooters again does not mean he has a debt to pro-wrestling, but the individuals who had a nackground in a legitimate discipline who also happened to be pro wrestlers.

It does Pro Wrestling was once real (a shoot) in the early 1900s. Shoot style Pro Wrestling continued to be passed on way after this Karl Gotch's ("the God of Pro Wrestling") son-in-law was the person who taught Ken shoot style Pro Wrestling and submissions.

Fozzy

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Because MMA and some forms of pro-wrestling have been influenced (to varying degrees) by the same fighting arts it does not follow that worked shoot fights in Japan influenced MMA technique, they merely borrow from the same sources in some cases.

Even though it was the very pro wrestlers who used such techniques who brought them to MMA? And that the actual pro wrestling promotions became the first MMA promotions?

Fall_Guy wrote: »

If, as has already been pointed out, many of the japanese wrestlers had legitimate judo backgrounds, the fact that ken shamrock had "only" learned from pro-wrestling shooters again does not mean he has a debt to pro-wrestling, but the individuals who had a nackground in a legitimate discipline who also happened to be pro wrestlers.

You talk about it like pro wrestlers with legitimate backgrounds were a rarity. Far from it

The stuff that Ken Shamrock learned from Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch was stuff that Billy and Gotch had been using in pro wrestling matches for decades. And the fact is, it was through being a pro wrestler that Ken got the opportunity to learn from those guys

roo1981

Had actually forgotton to come back to this little gem until the snarkyness returned in the welcome mod thread. For mischiefs sake i said I'd revive it

Fall_Guy wrote: »

They were influenced by the same disciplines that shape MMA as it has come to be known. Because MMA and some forms of pro-wrestling have been influenced (to varying degrees) by the same fighting arts it does not follow that worked shoot fights in Japan influenced MMA technique, they merely borrow from the same sources in some cases.

You say that worked shoot fights in Japan didnt influence MMA technique-i beg to differ on that one. Pancrase being the main stickler to your arguement. Brief history of Pancrase is here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancrase

If your not arsed reading it, just ask yourself, if you were starting to train MMA around say, 1997-2002 , would you have liked any of these guys as your coach (i.e. the person you learn techniques off?)

Ken Shamrock
Masakatsu Funaki
Bas Rutten
Frank Shamrock
Yuki Kondo
Guy Mezger
Katsuya Inoue

A lot of guys getting into the sport back then would have given one of their nuts to train with those guys.

This may help clarify things a bit more...you might know the guy Shamrocks fighting in the videos. The second vid is probably a bit more relevant to our arguement here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2rF9Jbl5mM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JegpMK2jbJU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6eNTcsA1e4&feature=related

The same sources is a pretty open term in that the grappling genus has been practised in many different countries for many centuries, splintering into different styles over time-therefore they ALL (bjj, catch, greco, freestyle etc) borrow from the same sources.

cowzerp

Regardless of the argument of pro wrestling influencing MMA, all the MMA talk on this forum is based around Irish, British and American MMA-there is never any chat based on japanese MMA around here,

Now with that said-Pro wrestling has had no fighting effect on the UFC or Irish MMA and the only had a promotion style effect on the UFC,

I'd prefer if there was more talk about styles used in MMA and talk about training etc.. And leave the pro wrestling to the pro wrestling forum, and amateur wrestling as part of this 1.

orestes

cowzerp wrote: »

I'd prefer if there was more talk about styles used in MMA and talk about training etc.. And leave the pro wrestling to the pro wrestling forum, and amateur wrestling as part of this 1.

This thread is not for that conversation. If you want to have that discussion please start a thread in feedback.

This thread is not to be used to carry over discussion from a thread that I have already locked due to it not being appropriate for this forum. Anybody attempting to do so from here on in will be infracted and/or banned.

cowzerp

Its about pro wrestling and MMA and thats what i talked about, sorry it does not suit you.

whats the problem?

Kent Brockman

I've tried to trawl through this heap of sh1te to find the answer, but its quite tedious so I'll just ask and hope ye'll excuse my ignorance:-
What do ye mean by Pro-Wrestling? is it that fake WWE soap opera or something different?
Then I may take a side:pac:

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

there is never any chat based on japanese MMA around here,

So I just imagined it every time I discussed the first six DREAM shows on here with other posters? (I've got some catching up to do on 7 and 8 :pac:) What about all the threads where PRIDE has been mentioned?

You're still missing the point if you think that there's no connection between American MMA and pro wrestling beyond a promoting style

Kent Brockman wrote: »

I've tried to trawl through this heap of sh1te to find the answer, but its quite tedious so I'll just ask and hope ye'll excuse my ignorance:-
What do ye mean by Pro-Wrestling? is it that fake WWE soap opera or something different?
Then I may take a side:pac:

WWE-style pro wrestling has nothing to do with MMA. What I've mainly been talking about here is a shoot-style of pro wrestling used in Japan. There's no backstage bad acting or over-the-top storylines involved. Just realistic looking fighting with a predetermined outcome

If you train, think of when you're told to roll at 70% resistance. You don't struggle to defend yourself and you allow your opponent to fully apply holds. The pro wrestling that I'm talking about is something along those lines, although with a story being told through the use of holds and not just random moves being done

There has also been pre-1930s American pro wrestling talked about here, a lot of which was actually shoots, basically making it MMA

orestes

cowzerp wrote: »

Its about pro wrestling and MMA and thats what i talked about, sorry it does not suit you.

whats the problem?

This thread is to discuss the possibility of connections between MMA and pro wrestling, not to discuss the direction you feel this forum should take.

It is not a matter of what suits me, it is a matter of discussion taking place in the appropriate forum and in the correct manner.

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

Now with that said-Pro wrestling has had no fighting effect on the UFC or Irish MMA and the only had a promotion style effect on the UFC,

Did you actaully read roo1981's post before your post?

Fozzy wrote: »

So I just imagined it every time I discussed the first six DREAM shows on here with other posters? (I've got some catching up to do on 7 and 8 :pac:) What about all the threads where PRIDE has been mentioned?

Don’t forget about K1 too, Fozzy. Sure I made a thread about PRIDE a few days ago.

Kent Brockman wrote: »

I've tried to trawl through this heap of sh1te to find the answer, but its quite tedious so I'll just ask and hope ye'll excuse my ignorance::

I’m actually annoyed by you labelling it a heap of ****e as there are some posters at least using factual historical information in this discussion. It maybe it is tedious as they have often have to reply multiple to people who stonewall (rarely without any historical information of their own to add) any connection between the two.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Fozzy wrote: »

WWE-style pro wrestling has nothing to do with MMA. What I've mainly been talking about here is a shoot-style of pro wrestling used in Japan. There's no backstage bad acting or over-the-top storylines involved. Just realistic looking fighting with a predetermined outcome

If you train, think of when you're told to roll at 70% resistance. You don't struggle to defend yourself and you allow your opponent to fully apply holds. The pro wrestling that I'm talking about is something along those lines, although with a story being told through the use of holds and not just random moves being done

Now that sounds like a serious crock of sh*t tbh, and people pay to see this game played out too?.

Can you post a youtube clip of one of these for me please (not slagging, I just think it sounds pretty stupid and would appricate seeing it).

Fozzy

I was actually posting this before that request :pac:

Perhaps it's time for a video?

This is Kiyoshi Tamura vs Volk Han. Tamura should be familiar to PRIDE fans. He headlined the last New Year's Eve show in Japan too, against Sakuraba. Volk Han is Russian and a top Sambo fighter. He helped train Fedor in RINGS and his only loss in legit MMA competition was to Big Nog, via decision. Sherdog says that he's had a lot more wins and losses, but they're including a lot of pro wrestling matches

A quick run-through of the rules might be helpful. There's no striking on the ground. A down is when a fighter is knocked down and doesn't get straight back up, he gets an 8 count and the down is counted against him in the scoring. A hold can be broken by grabbing the ropes, but every five of these counts as a down. The fight is won by KO, submission or by points

The other parts of the video are linked on the right of the video

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Sc1e-VFCw

Tim_Murphy

Now that sounds like a serious crock of sh*t tbh, and people pay to see this game played out too?.

Can you post a youtube clip of one of these for me please (not slagging, I just think it sounds pretty stupid and would appricate seeing it).

I'm sure somebody posted a link to Kane from WWE doing one of these matches back in the day, probably on this thread if you want to have a look.

I've tried to trawl through this heap of sh1te to find the answer, but its quite tedious so

In fairness, one side was just ignoring the evidence presented, so that can get a bit tedious alright.

Regardless of the argument of pro wrestling influencing MMA, all the MMA talk on this forum is based around Irish, British and American MMA-there is never any chat based on japanese MMA around here,

Feck sake Paul, let it go, even if nobody ever mentioned Japanese MMA here, which they do, you still have lost the argument.

Fozzy

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I'm sure somebody posted a link to Kane from WWE doing one of these matches back in the day, probably on this thread if you want to have a look.

Kane did wrestle some matches for Battlarts back in the day, but they're not really that relevant to this discussion. Battlarts is more about actually hurting your opponent in a pro wrestling match than anything else. It's not so much to do with MMA

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Feck sake Paul, let it go, even if nobody ever mentioned Japanese MMA here, which they do, you still have lost the argument.

Lost? you,ve got to be joking-there is no argument, a few lads who want to make out there been fans of pro wrestling sound less nerdy by linking it with MMA does not make me lose an argument that im not part of anyway, im just saying my piece and dont agree with the pro wrestling belief that it plays an important role in MMA,

and regardless of all this-it plays no part in MMA now anyway so the whole debate is pointless, fixed fights are fixed fights and it does not matter if there in america or japan, i dont see how this is related to MMA just because they might have made it a bit more realistic than the wwe.

You dont have to justify your love for muscled men playing games with each other to me, its just not my cup of tea since i was about 10.

but some people say men never grow up so maybe im out of touch..

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

Lost? you,ve got to be joking-there is no argument, a few lads who want to make out there been fans of pro wrestling sound less nerdy by linking it with MMA does not make me lose an argument that im not part of anyway, im just saying my piece and dont agree with the pro wrestling belief that it plays an important role in MMA,

and regardless of all this-it plays no part in MMA now anyway so the whole debate is pointless, fixed fights are fixed fights and it does not matter if there in america or japan, i dont see how this is related to MMA just because they might have made it a bit more realistic than the wwe.

You dont have to justify your love for muscled men playing games with each other to me, its just not my cup of tea since i was about 10.

but some people say men never grow up so maybe im out of touch..

Way to completely ignore everything myself, rovert and roo1981 have posted here, yet again

Why do you feel the need to resort to comments like "muscled men playing games with each other"? Is this not what you do when you train MMA every week? Just bringing some perspective to your incredibly immature and skewed viewpoint. You've demonstrated time after time in this thread your complete inability to take any facts presented by me on board and instead you stick with your opinion that has no logical basis

The involvement of pro wrestling in MMA history doesn't "dirty" MMA at all, which is clearly what you believe for some reason. You'll probably never accept it, but that doesn't stop it from being a fact

cowzerp

Fozzy wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to resort to comments like "muscled men playing games with each other"? Is this not what you do when you train MMA every week?

I did not ignore what you said, i disagree with it.

when we train we try to win by domintaing striking or submission and both trainees want to be the 1 doing the submission etc.. this is MMA without the aggression of a fight, comparing the 2 is the bit that shows where your wrong.. a choreographed fight or shoot fight with a fixed result is far removed from mma..

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

I did not ignore what you said, i disagree with it.

You disagreed with documentable fact

cowzerp wrote: »

when we train we try to win by domintaing striking or submission and both trainees want to be the 1 doing the submission etc.. this is MMA without the aggression of a fight, comparing the 2 is the bit that shows where your wrong.. a choreographed fight or shoot fight with a fixed result is far removed from mma..

I'm not sure what you're replying to here. Is it my reply from when you commented about muscular men playing games?

You've ignored something I've posted yet again. The pro wrestling training that these guys did was essentially MMA training before there ever was MMA training. Do you disagree with that?

live2thewire

the ammount of ignorance on behalf of mma blow ins is rediculous.

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

Lost? you,ve got to be joking-there is no argument, a few lads who want to make out there been fans of pro wrestling sound less nerdy by linking it with MMA does not make me lose an argument that im not part of anyway, im just saying my piece and dont agree with the pro wrestling belief that it plays an important role in MMA,

and regardless of all this-it plays no part in MMA now anyway so the whole debate is pointless, fixed fights are fixed fights and it does not matter if there in america or japan, i dont see how this is related to MMA just because they might have made it a bit more realistic than the wwe.

You dont have to justify your love for muscled men playing games with each other to me, its just not my cup of tea since i was about 10.

but some people say men never grow up so maybe im out of touch..

If this post isn’t evidence of losing the argument I don’t know what is you offer little if any rational for your belief AND you are resorting to insulting the people you disagree with.

If you read the thread you would have seen no one claimed modern Pro Wrestling plays has any bearing on MMA stylistically in anyway par the anecdote I made about Jon Jones. You are defending a point which was never made and not disproving any points that were.

Moving on from this anyone else excited about the possibility of Bryan Danielson breaking into MMA? As he is currently training at Xtreme Couture six days a week and is planning on moving over to Thailand to train Muay Thai for three months? It’ll be fun to see a non monster Pro Wrestler break into MMA for a change.

orestes

Cowzerp, calling other people "nerdy" because they have an interest in a certain subject is not warrented and is close to personal abuse in the context of this thread. Rein it in please.

live2thewire wrote: »

the ammount of ignorance on behalf of mma blow ins is rediculous.

Not constructive and abusive towards other users. Consider yourself warned.