Online gambling accounts affecting your chances of a mortgage

Jayminator

Hi folks,
As the title suggests.

I read an article in the paper on Wednesday which depicted how the banks are now frowning on any potential mortgage applicants who may have dabbled with or are regular users of online gaming sites. The article stated that the banks are using this information as an excuse to refuse loans or mortgages. I laughed at this as I read it to missus Jay as we are currently in the process of applying for a mortgage.

This is of course rubbish I assured my good lady. How can banks refuse these type of people loans. Sure half the country has an online PP account etc.........

Alas to my horror, Only this morning I receive a call from the bank stating that it is now in their lending policy to decline loan applications on the basis of my use of gambling sites etc etc.

Let me please expand on my use of this gambling to which they refer. Some of this is personal stuff but I dont mind discussing it.

I furnished the bank to whom I applied with all the relevant documents they would require to approve our application ( I am very familiar with this process as it is part of my on going business). Within this I needed to submit current account statements from 1/7/08 to 1/2/09. During this 8 month period they discovered 3 Dublin casino cash transactions and 2 online transactions to Boyle Poker. They were sparse and very irregular........

Without giving too much away regarding my own personal business income and assets the application was really a no brainer for the bank. It is a 70% loan to value application with other added security. I have an 18 year Irish Credit Bureau credit rating history which was 100% clear and in good standing. I have borrowed on 7 different occasions over the last number of years and so on so on. I am a married man with a young baba who now because of the implementation of this policy it would appear will need to continue spending time in rented accomadation and never upgrade to a family home. (we were renting after a recent sale of our old house)

What is the purpose of my post.

1) To warn other players who use these sites that this is now an issue. Whats their thoughts and has anyone else encountered the same problem

2) To publically express my outrage at the audacity of these so called bankers who for the last 15 years have been sleeping with every fkn developer in this country. Who have created along with our fabulous over spending government in tow with the aforementioned developers the fk up of a mess we now find our country in.

3) Who were the gamblers? Us or them. If this was America the likes of the former officials of our well known banks would at least have been lined up in the nearest police station having a polaroid or 2 taken of each other against the backdrop of the traditional height chart often associated with them cop shop type places.

4) The use of this policy is plain and simple. Its an indication that the banks are in such serious **** and the worst is yet to come. The recent recapitalisation of the banks is not worth a sh**te. The banks aims are now to only lend to 1st time buyers who in turn will pay off the developers whom in turn will attempt to pay back to the banks the billions owed. Its a viscious circle.
The criteria now used to obtain loan approval is now so tight its easier to give a pint of blood. The loan to value rates have come down hugely e.g ICS only lending 65% of the value of the house you or I want to buy. NIB only lending 70% LTV (loan to value). We need to stump up the rest. In order to purchase a €300,000 house you now need to have €90,000 in personal funds Unless of course you are a 1st time buyer where you can obtain a 92% loan to value mortgage with AIB at less than 2.5% (this will reduce further with the recent ECB interest rate cut of last Wednesday). Bank of Ireland offering very similiar rates. Ulster bank ffs in cohoots with the developers will offer 1st time buyers 92% LTV with a guarantee that if your house drops in value they will write off the drop in value off your mortgage. (T&C's apply here and its only up to a maximum of 15% drop in value I believe)

Only last night I was speaking to another boardsie about this issue and we spoke about an associate who obtained funding from the bank to buy a house after declaring his occupation was a full time poker player. This was less than 2 years ago I believe.

Jail the fkn lot of them IMO. Rant over.

Jay

El Stuntman

fcuking hell Jay, that is an absolute disgrace, I really don't know what to say.

the only crumbs of comfort that I can give you is this:

1. this credit squeeze is temporary and will abate. The banks will start lending again (not the crazy multiples we were used to).
Your credit rating remains, in personal terms, AAA and your ICB rating likewise. You will be able to get a mortgage at normal conditions at some point in the future.

which leads me to....

2. you may not want to hear this (and your Mrs almost certainly won't) but my view is that the banks are actually doing you a favour (albeit for totally spurious reasons) here. House prices are still wildly overvalued in Ireland and have a long, long way to fall yet. You are going to be much better-off, economically speaking, to sit on a pile of cash for a couple more years, rent a nice gaff (driving a hard bargain with your LL) and then buy, saving yourself literally hundreds of thousands of euro. Who knows, prices may fall so far that you won't need a mortgage at all?

I know this runs contrary to your normal desire to have 'a place of your own' for your family but if you take a coldly objective view on it, buying a house now is a sucker move imo.

Good luck with it whatever way the cards fall (so to speak)

brianmc

Pissing me off too. Which bank was this?

I've been hanging onto cheque stubs to explain some USD lodgements if I ever need to and now I'm wondering if I should try to explain them at all.

Upside in my case is that I completely agree with El S' analysis above and so I reckon I have plenty of time to build up a clean 12 month period on my bank statements.

Best of luck with whatever you end up doing about it.

I wonder if they have the ATM in the SE flagged?

MrPillowTalk

Yeah my bank manager put me wide to this a couple of years ago so its obviously not a new thing probably just being strictly enforced now as they are seeking any excuse not to lend.

Ace2007

How far back in bank statement do they go?

flushje

Jesus, thats harsh. I always wondered why MBMA never got back to me a bout that gold card....

Tight Ted

Scary stuff! I already have a few transactions at around the 4 figure mark so I guess I'm pretty ****ed?

Gonna try to get a 12 month clear record.

Jayminator

Ace2007 wrote: »

How far back in bank statement do they go?

Usually 6 months Donal. But can ask for 12 months statements

SCMTRJH

They don't require credit card statements for mortgage applications do they? The article only states 3 months of current account statements doesn't it?

El Stuntman

here's an old thread that may have something relevant on page 3 (post by me)

I don't know how far you might get with it but might be worth getting an opinion on?

Bobeagleburger

bookies shops will start getting busy again Id imagine !

Jayminator

El Stuntman wrote: »

fcuking hell Jay, that is an absolute disgrace, I really don't know what to say.

the only crumbs of comfort that I can give you is this:

1. this credit squeeze is temporary and will abate. The banks will start lending again (not the crazy multiples we were used to).
Your credit rating remains, in personal terms, AAA and your ICB rating likewise. You will be able to get a mortgage at normal conditions at some point in the future.

which leads me to....

2. you may not want to hear this (and your Mrs almost certainly won't) but my view is that the banks are actually doing you a favour (albeit for totally spurious reasons) here. House prices are still wildly overvalued in Ireland and have a long, long way to fall yet. You are going to be much better-off, economically speaking, to sit on a pile of cash for a couple more years, rent a nice gaff (driving a hard bargain with your LL) and then buy, saving yourself literally hundreds of thousands of euro. Who knows, prices may fall so far that you won't need a mortgage at all?

I know this runs contrary to your normal desire to have 'a place of your own' for your family but if you take a coldly objective view on it, buying a house now is a sucker move imo.

Good luck with it whatever way the cards fall (so to speak)

Hi Glyn,
I know we ve chatted about this issue before but the problem here re the purchase is the fact that we both love the house. They have accepted a 35% drop in the current asking price which has dropped in total by 50% from this time last year so where do ya draw the line and consider what is good value for money.

I do agree with you about prices still having a way to go but what I have found in our 6 month house hunt is that the vendors will quite simply take the house off the market and not bother to sell it. The house is spot on in terms of what we are looking for and I am buying it safe in the knowledge that it will most likely drop further. I know this does not make good economic sense but we are hopefully going to be in this house for the next 20 / 25 years or so, so its not an investment rather an ideal family home. If I continue to wrangle on the price then the owners simply wont sell and will just rent it out.

My belief is that if prices continue to drop sellers will just pull from the market. Also with the embargo on house repossessions I think this will take further pressure off house owners who may be in difficulty with the banks. I also think banks from a PR point of view will be loathe to repo a family home (1 repo I think in 08 from the main banks???). If the owners can be seen to make attempts to negotiate with the lenders they may just make it through the crisis.

I also think that when the majority of potential buyers believe the market has bottomed then they will come out of the woodwork and bidding wars will begin again, hiking up prices.

My thoughts may be flawed but I am prepared to accept the risk for the sake of what we both consider an ideal family home.

I also feel it depends on what market you are looking at.

Jayminator

El Stuntman wrote: »

here's an old thread that may have something relevant on page 3 (post by me)

I don't know how far you might get with it but might be worth getting an opinion on?

Was onto my solicitor today already seeking a legal opinion. His answer was that if its in their lending policy then not a lot we can do. He did however say that they have no right to question how and on what I spend my own cash on.

I have repaid every loan etc etc on time so I dont know how the bank can use this against me. If they do (and I am awaiting an appeal to the decision on Monday) I will be screaming it from every media opportunity I can use to demonstrate this hypocrisy

Jayminator

rarnes1 wrote: »

bookies shops will start getting busy again Id imagine !

LOL this.

Jayminator

SCMTRJH wrote: »

They don't require credit card statements for mortgage applications do they? The article only states 3 months of current account statements doesn't it?

No CC statements required. They are only using current account statements to confirm income and outgoings. They cant examine what you spend your money on (well they can prolly ask for CC statements but you can refuse)

Glowingmind

Just curious, if I have an account with Bank A that I use for my poker needs and an account with Bank B that I use to get my work monies paid into, would that solve the problem?

robinblinds

If you make the money from online play, a monthly deposit to your account is a better way to go. Set up a business and run your accounts through this. You can say that you work for this online company as a consultant.

Its reliable and continuous income they are looking for.

Obv, if its live play its harder, but lodging cash through a business account is pretty good way to start.

Only trouble is trying to get a mortgage through a business account....

Jayminator

brianmc wrote: »

Pissing me off too. Which bank was this?

I've been hanging onto cheque stubs to explain some USD lodgements if I ever need to and now I'm wondering if I should try to explain them at all.

Upside in my case is that I completely agree with El S' analysis above and so I reckon I have plenty of time to build up a clean 12 month period on my bank statements.

Best of luck with whatever you end up doing about it.

I wonder if they have the ATM in the SE flagged?

It is one of the bigger building societies but I dont want to name them as this lending policy has been flagged with all lenders. It was not the SE atm machine but the other casino just off that big green square park in the middle of town with that famous maternity hospital just down da road whose name appeared on my statments.

Jayminator

Glowingmind wrote: »

Just curious, if I have an account with Bank A that I use for my poker needs and an account with Bank B that I use to get my work monies paid into, would that solve the problem?

Yes. Use bank account B

robinblinds

Basic thing to remember is you have the money before the bank does, so its up to you to represent how they perceive you got it.

Jayminator

robinblinds wrote: »

Its reliable and continuous income they are looking for.

Only trouble is trying to get a mortgage through a business account....

I have very strong reliable and continuous income from my business. In my post I said they declined my application due to 3 or 4 ''gambling'' transactions over an 8 month period.

I also said the loan would normally be a no brainer for the bank. The issue really is the fact that the banks just dont have the money to lend yet and are using this policy as an excuse to decline

Jayminator

robinblinds wrote: »

Basic thing to remember is you have the money before the bank does, so its up to you to represent how they perceive you got it.

There is no perception of how I ''got'' the money here. Its the perception from the bank that I am gambling my own money away in casino transactions that appeared on my current account.

These were recreational transactions like withdrawing €500 on a Friday to go on the lash for the weekend. Whats the difference?

Ya know what I mean im sure

Ace2007

Jayminator wrote: »

It It was not the SE atm machine but the other casino just off that big green square park in the middle of town with that famous maternity hospital just down da road whose name appeared on my statments.

Jayminator wrote: »

During this 8 month period they discovered 3 Dublin casino cash transactions and 2 online transactions to Boyle Poker.

Only 3 transactions in that casino over an 8 month period - that can't be right - what were you doin at the cash desk all those other times at the start of the night... :rolleyes:

robinblinds

Jayminator wrote: »

There is no perception of how I ''got'' the money here. Its the perception from the bank that I am gambling my own money away in casino transactions that appeared on my current account.

These were recreational transactions like withdrawing €500 on a Friday to go on the lash for the weekend. Whats the difference?

Ya know what I mean im sure

I do ya. I was just trying to broaden the discussion.

QED - Banks are cunts.

Jayminator

Ace2007 wrote: »

Only 3 transactions in that casino over an 8 month period - that can't be right - what were you doin at the cash desk all those other times at the start of the night... :rolleyes:

Looking for credit of cousre.

Jayminator

robinblinds wrote: »

I do ya. I was just trying to broaden the discussion.

QED - Banks are cunts.

Its just the tut tut wag the finger type attitude from the underwriter that has really p**ed me off.

Banks are not knuts, They re worse than that. A knut sometimes proves useful.

tm2204

Jayminator wrote: »

Was onto my solicitor today already seeking a legal opinion. His answer was that if its in their lending policy then not a lot we can do. He did however say that they have no right to question how and on what I spend my own cash on.

I have repaid every loan etc etc on time so I dont know how the bank can use this against me. If they do (and I am awaiting an appeal to the decision on Monday) I will be screaming it from every media opportunity I can use to demonstrate this hypocrisy

This is an absolute disgrace. The banks considerations should be your ability to repay the loan and your previous credit rating and repayment of previous loans; both A+ as you say.

Also you mentioned there are only sporadic lodgment's to poker sites. It's not like your a complete losing donk who is lodging month after month.

If you choose to spend your 'spare' cash on poker when WTF should that go against you. If you withdraw it in cash and drink it away or shoot it up your arm they would have no way of knowing that.

If you have monthly subscriptions to, for example, a gym is that a waste of money that the banks can use against you?

Maybe you should print off your PokerTracker stats & graphs and show them your actually winning money (assuming you are ) and ask them to include this as extra income towards your mortgage approval.

Like I said a fookin disgrace. Like you said just an excuse to decline in these times.

RoundTower

this isn't going to be a popular viewpoint here but so long as we have independent banks I totally support them in their right to turn down the chance to do business with online gamblers. Their responsibility is to make money for their shareholders, they do that by giving out loans to people who will pay them back. If they discover online gamblers are less likely to pay them back then they should charge them a premium or not give them a loan at all.

However if we are going to have nationalised banks and pump billions of taxpayers money into them, then their function is not to make money, it's to provide a public service. In that case they should be forced to give gamblers loans.

thenutpeddler

finally someone refuses to loan money to "jay the lip" o'toole

Lao Lao

thenutpeddler wrote: »

finally someone refuses to loan money to "jay the lip" o'toole

Nah, ur confusing Jay with another poker player called 'The Lip' who nobody should lend money to!!

Seriously though, this is pretty disgracefull and as already stated is just a way for the banks to refuse to lend moeny that they don't have.

What it means for poker players is that they will need to be better organised in having a totally seperate A/c (maybe even bank) for their poker money in order to keep things in order for the banks, something they shouldn't have to do of course

Hope the appeal goes well for you Jay but as you said, if it doesn't, take it to every media outlet that will listen to you. There is no way I would accept that decision.

SpencerJames

in fairness Jay, I think you should be paying the people you owe money to back instead of buying a house. In fact think its poor form of you to post this thread when so many posters are owed money by you.

Bank doing you a favour "Lip"!