ML or GP

thomond2006

Which is the best, the Magners League or the Sky Sports hyped Guinness Premiership?

Is Top14 any good also??

Stev_o

How can you compare 3 completely different leagues that bare very little resemblance to each other?

NU8

Make a poll?

It has to be between the ML and Top 14. The Premiership is only good occasionally, usually when London Irish or Bath are playing.

I'm going to go with the Magners League mainly because of some amazing interprovincial matches in the last few seasons.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Which is the best, the Magners League or the Sky Sports hyped Guinness Premiership?

Is Top14 any good also??

Il give you a football analogy,not in terms of the playing style but the strength of the leagues.

Top 14-English premiership(there teams are so strong they should be allowed 2 extra h-cup teams)

Magners league-la liga ( their are some good teams that are always in with a shout but the league lacks the strength of the top 14.

Guiness prem-Serie A(Top few teams can be good,but their style is not suited for europe and they are overhyped.)

As far as im concerned the Guiness premiership is a poor standard league.

The top 6 from france should be entered,the top 4 from magners league and the top 2 from England.Says it all really when Munster dispatch one of the stronggest English teams Sale with so much ease.
Maybe Leinster,Ospreys,Cardiff etc would have beaten them so convincingly but I think they would have beaten them and it says alot imo.

Stev_o wrote: »

How can you compare 3 completely different leagues that bare very little resemblance to each other?

Of course you can compare different leagues,why cant you?
If you mean playing style then yes they are all different,but in terms of strength,wealth and fan base of course they can be compared.

thomond2006

Stev_o wrote: »

How can you compare 3 completely different leagues that bare very little resemblance to each other?

Fair enough so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Podge_irl

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

As far as im concerned the Guiness premiership is a poor standard league.

The top 6 from france should be entered,the top 4 from magners league and the top 2 from England.Says it all really when Munster dispatch one of the stronggest English teams Sale with so much ease.
Maybe Leinster,Ospreys,Cardiff etc would have beaten them so convincingly but I think they would have beaten them and it says alot imo.

The GP teams have still been far more successful in Europe then the ML teams. Leinster managed to lose quite convincingly to Leicester and Wasps in the last two seasons of HEC. You're massively under-rating the GP, its as strong as the ML.

Crash

The GP can be an incredibly poor league from a spectators point of view, many matches becoming pure war of attrition stuff, but you really can't knock it as much people do.

The ML turns out some absolute drudgery on a regular basis as well, but its a lot harder to judge objectively because of the Irish interest in it. To be honest, I stay out of arguments as to which is the better etc., because I agree with Stev_o here - the style of rugby played makes it very difficult to compare.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

The GP teams have still been far more successful in Europe then the ML teams. Leinster managed to lose quite convincingly to Leicester and Wasps in the last two seasons of HEC. You're massively under-rating the GP, its as strong as the ML.

yeah,
I thought someone might bring up Wasps or Leicester.
The fact is from what ive seen this season,the GP is going down the toilet.There are way too many foreignors that are rubbish journeymen and their brand of rugby is so unnatractive and boring,imo a side who dares run the ball SH style will beat them.

Wasps are a spent force and Leicester play ****e rugby although they do win.Leicester imo will have most of their players go next year,Murphy is already being looked at by a number of top french clubs and its only a matter of time before they leave and others will follow.

I wouldnt agree that its as strong as the ML,if you look now only Leicester can realistically win.Quinns just arent good enough and from the magners Cardiff,Munster,Leinster,Ospreys etc are all in with a good shout.

Thats 4 ML and 1 Prem.
In years gone by I would agree with you,but its a league on the way down,its ****e to watch and im glad tbh.The English have destroyed football,lets hope they dont do the same with rugby.

At least if the French turn the top 14 into the Barclays Premiership in rugby ,they play attractive stuff.

corny

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

Guiness prem-Serie A(Top few teams can be good,but their style is not suited for europe and they are overhyped.)

Thats a flawed analogy if you meant that in an historical sense. Italy has been the most successful nation in the European Cup! (11 winners, 14 Runners up). In the present, the tide will turn on the Premiership and La Liga very soon. The Italians with their 4 World Cups have always had a strong domestic league and very soon they will again.

Apologies for the rant off topic:)

Serenity Now!

Guinness Premiership for me.
I think Magners League rugby is terrible and even a couple of 'derby' games between Irish provinces won't change that.

Amazotheamazing

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

yeah,
I thought someone might bring up Wasps or Leicester.
The fact is from what ive seen this season,the GP is going down the toilet.There are way too many foreignors that are rubbish journeymen and their brand of rugby is so unnatractive and boring,imo a side who dares run the ball SH style will beat them.

Wasps are a spent force and Leicester play ****e rugby although they do win.Leicester imo will have most of their players go next year,Murphy is already being looked at by a number of top french clubs and its only a matter of time before they leave and others will follow.

I wouldnt agree that its as strong as the ML,if you look now only Leicester can realistically win.Quinns just arent good enough and from the magners Cardiff,Munster,Leinster,Ospreys etc are all in with a good shout.

Thats 4 ML and 1 Prem.
In years gone by I would agree with you,but its a league on the way down,its ****e to watch and im glad tbh.The English have destroyed football,lets hope they dont do the same with rugby.

At least if the French turn the top 14 into the Barclays Premiership in rugby ,they play attractive stuff.

Not so sure I agree with that, all leagues have good periods and bad periods. In the 1980's no-one would have believed the Premiership in football would be far better than the Italian league, eventually it will swing back and we'll have people asking what happened, it's just a natural thing.

In addition, every team declines at some point. Munster will decline and maybe another ML will become a dominant team in Europe. Just the way of the world, if you'd told an Ulster fan in the 1980's that Munster would be more successful than them in the pro era they'd have laughed, up until then they'd been the dominant Irish province for the most part.

Serenity Now!

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Guinness Premiership for me.
I think Magners League rugby is terrible and even a couple of 'derby' games between Irish provinces won't change that.

I can see where your coming from,but I think the tv coverage given has affected your liking of the magners.The magners is just not pleasing to watch on setanat,very bland coverage,with piss poor analysis.

Sky make it seem like a final every game.

We really need it to get better coverage.

escobar

Stev_o wrote: »

How can you compare 3 completely different leagues that bare very little resemblance to each other?

Good Point...The only way to compare the quality of the leagues is through international competition.

In the Heineken Cup half of the teams to make it to the knockout stages are Celtic League teams. That statistic speaks for itself......The Celtic League also has europe's best team.


The competition in the Magners league has done great things for the national sides as well with Wales and Ireland contesting the six nations this year and wales having won the six nations 2 of the last three years.
Ireland has the record try scorer of the six nations in Brian O Driscoll.

The Guiness Premiership along with the English national team seems to be falling apart at the moment with the best english players playing abroad. Not a good time for them..

buck65

I like the ML but there have been some bad games and interest does dwindle in it around this time when the 6 nations and the H Cup come into their own. Maybe next year with the playoffs there will be a bit of late season excitement in the ML. This years ML could be a close affair and may yet keep us all glued to Setanta.
I do enjoy watching the French league , especially Stade and Toulouse but like the ML there are some dodgy teams there too.
The GP is a good solid league , very unspectacular at times but a good game there beats most.
The ML has a good level of rugby generally with possibly a 2 tier developing.
1 - Munster, Leinster, Ospreys and Cardiff (when they feel like it)
2- Ulster, Glasgow, Scarlets, Edinburgh, Dragons, Connacht.
Still though any of these teams are well capable of beating each other. Certainly the top four would be well capable of holding their own in Enland or France as they have proved by qualifying for the HCup quarter finals.

Serenity Now!

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

I can see where your coming from,but I think the tv coverage given has affected your liking of the magners.The magners is just not pleasing to watch on setanat,very bland coverage,with piss poor analysis.

Sky make it seem like a final every game.

We really need it to get better coverage.

I was actually referring to the rugby itself. Never mind the presentation. I don't see or hear any TV coverage when I go to a game.

ibuprofen

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

yeah,
I thought someone might bring up Wasps or Leicester.
The fact is from what ive seen this season,the GP is going down the toilet.There are way too many foreignors that are rubbish journeymen and their brand of rugby is so unnatractive and boring,imo a side who dares run the ball SH style will beat them.

Wasps are a spent force and Leicester play ****e rugby although they do win.Leicester imo will have most of their players go next year,Murphy is already being looked at by a number of top french clubs and its only a matter of time before they leave and others will follow.

I wouldnt agree that its as strong as the ML,if you look now only Leicester can realistically win.Quinns just arent good enough and from the magners Cardiff,Munster,Leinster,Ospreys etc are all in with a good shout.

Thats 4 ML and 1 Prem.
In years gone by I would agree with you,but its a league on the way down,its ****e to watch and im glad tbh.The English have destroyed football,lets hope they dont do the same with rugby.

At least if the French turn the top 14 into the Barclays Premiership in rugby ,they play attractive stuff.

Completley agree.

The GP is boring plodding rugby, terrible to watch.
It's falling apart at the seams. Most of their good players will be gone by the end of the season

I don't rate it compared to the ML. Only one GP team will make it into the next round of the heineken cup . Can't see any of them winning it.

I'd say that's between the Blues and Munster. Most probably a munnster leinster semi too!!

gosplan

escobar wrote: »

Good Point...The only way to compare the quality of the leagues is through international competition.

In the Heineken Cup half of the teams to make it to the knockout stages are Celtic League teams. That statistic speaks for itself......The Celtic League also has europe's best team.

I don't think the French are currently as enthusiastic about the Heineken cup as we are, apart from the nearly withdrawing thing last year. Obviously they'd like to win it but I don't think they see it as their priority - probably because of the money available through the Top 14.

Think the GP is going through a slump at the moment. it might well bounce back in the next couple of years though.

Munster are by all accounts, either a freak or a force of nature. I don't think you can judge the Magners league by their exploits. I mean they're up there with the All Blacks!

ScholesyIsGod

escobar wrote: »

Good Point...The only way to compare the quality of the leagues is through international competition.

In the Heineken Cup half of the teams to make it to the knockout stages are Celtic League teams. That statistic speaks for itself......The Celtic League also has europe's best team.


The competition in the Magners league has done great things for the national sides as well with Wales and Ireland contesting the six nations this year and wales having won the six nations 2 of the last three years.
Ireland has the record try scorer of the six nations in Brian O Driscoll.

The Guiness Premiership along with the English national team seems to be falling apart at the moment with the best english players playing abroad. Not a good time for them..

Im not a big fan of the Guinness Premiership by any means dont get me wrong but in fairness they do have 3 teams in the quarter finals this season, last season they had 2 in the semis and the season before last they had 2 teams in the final.

escobar

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

Im not a big fan of the Guinness Premiership by any means dont get me wrong but in fairness they do have 3 teams in the quarter finals this season, last season they had 2 in the semis and the season before last they had 2 teams in the final.

I don't really like watching GP either, boring...zzz.

The GP this year is in freefall and it'll be worse next year with all of the players leaving .
I don't see them doing much in the HC knockouts so presently I would see the CL as being the pre eminent league in europe.

toomevara

ibuprofen wrote: »

The GP is boring plodding rugby, terrible to watch.
It's falling apart at the seams. Most of their good players will be gone by the end of the season

Aeghhhh! what utter nonsense and piffle...The GP has a competitive edge and following among fans that the ML can only dream of...It goes from strength to strength with record gates even in the bleeding credit crunch....Teams from the GP are very well represented in the Heineken cup quarter stage and have completely dominated the challenge cup this year

All this tosh about high profile names jumping ship is a massive over- statement,,,3 big name players have left for France...just 3...and the RFU are moving to put an end to that...It's the best rugby union national club competition in the world..no question and bar a few marquee clashes knocks the weak kneed ML into the ditch....

Go watch Bath, leicester, London Irish , Northampton play rugby and you'll see skillful genuinely competitive rugby straight out of the top drawer.

toomevara

escobar wrote: »

The GP this year is in freefall and it'll be worse next year with all of the players leaving .

Who are 'all' these players?? It is not in 'freefall'...record gates and receipts virtually across the board...this is crazy talk....

escobar

gosplan wrote: »

I don't think the French are currently as enthusiastic about the Heineken cup as we are, apart from the nearly withdrawing thing last year. Obviously they'd like to win it but I don't think they see it as their priority - probably because of the money available through the Top 14.

Think the GP is going through a slump at the moment. it might well bounce back in the next couple of years though.

Munster are by all accounts, either a freak or a force of nature. I don't think you can judge the Magners league by their exploits. I mean they're up there with the All Blacks!

The only way to judge the leagues against each other though is in competition and we have half the teams in the knockout stages of the HC this year.

The GP won't bounce back until sterling does. Don't see that happening for awhile...that is unless england joins the euro. TBH the GP will most probably hemmorage players for the next year or two.

Munster are the all blacks of club competition and they win trophies but they're not the only good team . There's the scarlets and leinster who have a great history in the HC, The blues are looking almost unstopable this year. In fact almost every year the cl has at least matched the next best european league with getting 3 teams into the knockout stages.

I don't think any european league has gotten 4 teams through to the knockout stages before!!!!

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Aeghhhh! what utter nonsense and piffle...The GP has a competitive edge and following among fans that the ML can only dream of...It goes from strength to strength with record gates even in the bleeding credit crunch....Teams from the GP are very well represented in the Heineken cup quarter stage and have completely dominated the challenge cup this year

All this tosh about high profile names jumping ship is a massive over- statement,,,3 big name players have left for France...just 3...and the RFU are moving to put an end to that...It's the best rugby union national club competition in the world..no question and bar a few marquee clashes knocks the weak kneed ML into the ditch....

Go watch Bath, leicester, London Irish , Northampton play rugby and you'll see skillful genuinely competitive rugby straight out of the top drawer.

Come on,you have to be joking.

the super 14 is the best league followed by the top 14.

How are the rfu gona keep star players who are all foreignors?
They have a salary cap unlike every other league.

Also im looking for the attendance stats now but only Leicester and one or 2 other could match Leinster or Munster for attendances.

Why is it the best?
Most team are filled with journeymen.

Chucky the tree

I think using the HEC as an example is a bit short sighted. The french couldnt give a stuff about the HEC, one French team makes it through and Goose wants to allow the top 6 enter it next year? Extremelty strange thinking.


The only reason the ML teams do so well in the HEC is because they arent hugely pushed about the winning the magners league. Alot of english/French teams would prefer to win their own domestic league, the french teams for definite. Cardiff are a perfect example, best team in the ML sitting 2nd bottom in the ML, you'd never see the same in the Top 14 or GP.

Chucky the tree

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

Come on,you have to be joking.

the super 14 is the best league followed by the top 14.

How are the rfu gona keep star players who are all foreignors?
They have a salary cap unlike every other league.

Also im looking for the attendance stats now but only Leicester and one or 2 other could match Leinster or Munster for attendances.

Why is it the best?
Most team are filled with journeymen.

That's complete bull****. The same "journeymen" who leinster & Munster manage to sign because they can offer more money? I suppose Van der linde isnt a journeyman but a player at the peak of his career? Same goes for Tipoki & howlett.


P.S - excactly how many Top 14 matches have you watched this season?

[Jackass]

toomevara wrote: »

Aeghhhh! what utter nonsense and piffle...The GP has a competitive edge and following among fans that the ML can only dream of...

Look up the GP website. Exluding games in Twickenham, the highest attended game in GP this season wouldn't even fill the RDS. Never mind the gates of 20,500 and 25,000 brought in by Ospreys and Munster this season.

toomevara wrote: »

It goes from strength to strength with record gates even in the bleeding credit crunch....Teams from the GP are very well represented in the Heineken cup quarter stage and have completely dominated the challenge cup this year

The GP is decades old. Infact, in it's format, English club rugby is no doubt over a century old.

The Magners League is 8 years old. Over the last couple of seasons, Thomond Park, Liberty Stadium, Parc y Scarlets, RDS have all been developed to better than anything you will find in the GP and with the exception of Parc y Scarlets, bigger than any stadium you will find in the GP. Parc y Scarlets would just be one of the biggest, not the biggest like all the rest.

Over the next couple of seasons, Cardiff will be added to that list, and the Dragons and Ulster will have developed grounds as good as anything you will find in the GP.

Facility wise, ML is, without question, already well ahead of GP even at this early stage of development, and these are hard cold facts without prejiduce. If you don't believe me I'll post capacity and pictures of state of the art ML grounds vs the old, creaking sheds used in GP which are smaller and far less fan friendly.

Now to the teams, in the EDF cup, Ospreys, the ML side who are defending champions against all of the GP teams, won their group knocking out GP league leaders for a good chunk of the season London Irish and high flying Harlequins who are 3rd (?) at the moment.

Cardiff dominated their group, winning all 3 games & knocking out GP heavy weights Leicester, Bath and the team Munster fans talked up as a tough draw in HEC this season Sale, who sat bottom of the group, winless.

Scarlets were unlucky on the final day to miss out on a 3rd from 4 ML teams in the GP / Welsh ML semi-finals.

Of the 4 ML teams in this competition and 12 GP teams, you can expect at least 1 ML in the final, but if I was a betting man, when the 2 finalists are decided I would have my money on GP 0 from 12 and ML 2 from 4.

In Europe, Munster, ML, are the defending champions & top ranked team in Europe and at the moment you would have to say hands down the best team in Europe.

The HEC quarter finals are made up of 4 ML, 3 GP & 1 T14.

As for the challange cup, English teams dominate it when ML send in the heavyweights of Connacht to defend our honour (with all due respect), who by the way, make the Quarter finals of the competition despite being the basement boys of ML year after year, and also T14 teams fighting relegation battles and who historically don't give a toss about Europe at the best of times and a couple of Italian and Spanish part timers. I don't think that portion of your argument is relevant.

The quality of team in the ML is, without question, better than that of the GP. Absolutely no question about it. Don't mind the hype, don't mind the flashing lights, shiny bits, sky enduced broadway show, on the coal face, ML is better.

As for the supporter argument, as said, ML is still in its infancey. Year on year, crowds are growing accross the board, with record crowds coming through the gates for most teams each season. But I'll admit there were teathing problems with the ML which people who try to talk down the league refuse to forget. First of all, when a league is set up, it's a bit much to expect it to be an instant hit which fans hoping and praying to land a trophy that's just been invented.

It's even harsher to expect that these fans will even exist in the first place when...for the most part...the team has just been invented!! (as with Wales and Scotland regionlised teams after a couple of years in ML).

ML is growing at an incredible pace, ok it has the poor Setanta coverage and hasn't been marketed as well as Sky market their multi-million investment - again, more established competition, bigger TV audiences also, but even this year compared to, say 4 years ago, the competetiveness and quality of players on the pitch is world class!! Of all the leagues in the world, Magners league games on average have the highest amount of international capped players starting for each team per game with an average of (and i will hunt out a source for this if required) iirc 12 internationals on average starting for every single team in every single game, higher than any other league in the world. Magners league, the most represented league in the last 2 world cups.

The old notion of "teams don't take it seriously" is an old argument that is getting weaker and weaker each year. Munster for example talked up the competition this season, O'Callaghan quoted as saying it's a competition they are taking very seriously (and also admited which is something they may not have done in the past) and that they very much want to win it! (no doubt after seeing arch rivals Leinster lift the crown). Look at the table this year, with all the top teams, both ML and Europe, also being the top teams in the league putting out best teams available in all games and all out to win it.

With the exception of Cardiff who are having a disastor of a domestic season, but not for a lack of trying as they have fielded their best teams all the way through, and I think their reaction after losing to Leinster in the RDS tells you that it's not as if they don't give a sh*t, they were furios.

The crowds are growing and on average attendence ML would be there or there abouts on a par with GP at the moment, but with out top teams such as Leinster, Munster, Ospreys & Cardiff being either at the very top of GP listing for average attendance, or as will be in Munsters case, the top ranked average attendence team as no GP team has a ground big enough to fit in that amount of fans.

ML has bigger grounds and as they get fuller and fuller each season, will pass out GP to a level at the moment they can't match due to the lack of facilitys.

toomevara wrote: »

Go watch Bath, leicester, London Irish , Northampton play rugby and you'll see skillful genuinely competitive rugby straight out of the top drawer.

Go watch Munster, Leinster, Cardiff Ospreys and you'll see even better rugby.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

That's complete bull****. The same "journeymen" who leinster & Munster manage to sign because they can offer more money? I suppose Van der linde isnt a journeyman but a player at the peak of his career? Same goes for Tipoki & howlett.


P.S - excactly how many Top 14 matches have you watched this season?

Em,Van Der Linde is a 28 year old prop,just won the world cup last year and started in the final alongside big OS.

He is most definitely not a journeyman and one of the best props in the world currently at his peak,as all props are from 27-32 and most other athletes from 28-30.
Are you actually serious?
Do you know anything about Van Der Linde?

Munster
Leinster
Ospreys
Cardiff
Ulster
Edinburgh?

are all littered with internationals.
The same cant be said to the top 6 teams in the guiness prem.

The sky sports teams hail mapisua like he is the best centre in the world.
Tipoki has alot more honours than mapasua i.e captaining the maoris.

I still cant get over the fact that you think Van Der Linde is a journeyman lol.



I have watched most of the big top 14 games online this year,you only have to look at the top 8 teams squads to see the quality.

ibuprofen

toomevara wrote: »

Aeghhhh! what utter nonsense and piffle...The GP has a competitive edge and following among fans that the ML can only dream of...It goes from strength to strength with record gates even in the bleeding credit crunch....Teams from the GP are very well represented in the Heineken cup quarter stage and have completely dominated the challenge cup this year

All this tosh about high profile names jumping ship is a massive over- statement,,,3 big name players have left for France...just 3...and the RFU are moving to put an end to that...It's the best rugby union national club competition in the world..no question and bar a few marquee clashes knocks the weak kneed ML into the ditch....

Go watch Bath, leicester, London Irish , Northampton play rugby and you'll see skillful genuinely competitive rugby straight out of the top drawer.

zzzzzzz ....jumper... rugby... ball... zzzzzzzzzzzz sorry you nearly put me asleep talking about the GP

This weak kneed ML as you call it has just gotten 4 teams in to the knockout stages of the HC.

Cmon even you toomevara would have to admit the strenght of the ML.

After all they've achieved a record no. of teams making it into the HC knockouts and have the two stand out favourites for the cup.

The GP though has only opened it's flood gates, alot more player will go as their contracts end.

toomevara

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

Come on,you have to be joking.

the super 14 is the best league followed by the top 14.

The super 14 is an international club competition not a national one, so no comparison....from what I've seen (Eurosport mostly) the top 14 isn't a patch on the GP...it's bloated, inflated and overvalued...and exhibits all the same problems many identify as being issues with the GP. And again comparisons are unfair as they've no salary cap unlike the GP, thus allowing rich municipalities and generous sugar daddies to completely skew the competition.

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

The super 14 is an international club competition not a national one, so no comparison....from what I've seen (Eurosport mostly) the top 14 isn't a patch on the GP...it's bloated, inflated and overvalued...and exhibits all the same problems many identify as being issues with the GP. And again comparisons are unfair as they've no salary cap unlike the GP, thus allowing rich municipalities and generous sugar daddies to completely skew the competition.

Il let Jackass's post above speak for its brilliant self.

Also the rugby in the Top 14 from what ive seen is far more aesthetically pleasing,although I am biased as I prefer players not to run into contact on purpose.

If you dont want to count the super 14 then dont,but its structured in a league style with knockouts like the premiership so I included it.

Chucky the tree

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

Em,Van Der Linde is a 28 year old prop,just won the world cup last year and started in the final alongside big OS.

He is most definitely not a journeyman and one of the best props in the world currently at his peak,as all props are from 27-32 and most other athletes from 28-30.
Are you actually serious?
Do you know anything about Van Der Linde?

Munster
Leinster
Ospreys
Cardiff
Ulster
Edinburgh?

are all littered with internationals.
The same cant be said to the top 6 teams in the guiness prem.

The sky sports teams hail mapisua like he is the best centre in the world.
Tipoki has alot more honours than mapasua i.e captaining the maoris.

I still cant get over the fact that you think Van Der Linde is a journeyman lol.



I have watched most of the big top 14 games online this year,you only have to look at the top 8 teams squads to see the quality.

Van der linde came here for the money and he's showing it, the fact he's 28 or just won a WC doesnt make a difference. Maybe with an extended run he'll up his game, but he's not playing at the level he should be and certainly not at the level for the pay he's on.


Top 6 might have more internationals, but in the entire league I think GP would easily have more internationals then the ML. The ML is a 3 horse race, and it's usually the same every year the GP is wide open and it always is every year. I'd much rather match between a top 6 side in the GP like Bath vs Lecister then Osphreys vs Edinburgh. It's the Leinster/Munster interest that makes the ML interesting, outside of that it's muck.

toomevara

[Jackass] wrote: »

Look up the GP website. Exluding games in Twickenham, the highest attended game in GP this season wouldn't even fill the RDS. Never mind the gates of 20,500 and 25,000 brought in by Ospreys and Munster this season.

Exceptions to the rule.

Parc y Scarlets, RDS have all been developed to better than anything you will find in the GP

Been twice, its an appalling atmosphere free barn, which is generally half empty..

Facility wise, ML is, without question, already well ahead of GP even at this early stage of development, and these are hard cold facts without prejiduce. If you don't believe me I'll post capacity and pictures of state of the art ML grounds vs the old, creaking sheds used in GP which are smaller and far less fan friendly.

Not bothered about the grounds tbh, its the quality of the competition on the field and the atmosphere that concerns me and most fans...

Now to the teams, in the EDF cup, Ospreys, the ML side who are defending champions against all of the GP teams, won their group knocking out GP league leaders for a good chunk of the season London Irish and high flying Harlequins who are 3rd (?) at the moment.

Fine but the comparisons are irrelevant because GP teams are in a proper competitive league which invovles a massively long attritional season which tests their squad depth and players minds and bodies in ways which the ML clubs couldn't conceive...

Stick Cardiff or the ospreys into the GP, have them fight for qualification to the HEC, instead of virtually guaranteed qualification and see how they go...they'd struggle, no doubt.

The quality of team in the ML is, without question, better than that of the GP. Absolutely no question about it. Don't mind the hype, don't mind the flashing lights, shiny bits, sky enduced broadway show, on the coal face, ML is better.

Irrelevant, I attend between 10 and 14 GP (probably more than most folk contributing to this thread I'd hazard a guess)games a year...I'm quite capable of seeing through the sky glitz and media hype to the nub of the matter and making my own mind up thanks...

The old notion of "teams don't take it seriously" is an old argument that is getting weaker and weaker each year.

But still patently the case. I've watched alot of ML games this year on Setanta, and frankly, with one or two exceptions I've been bored catatonic...

Go watch Munster, Leinster, Cardiff Ospreys and you'll see even better rugby.

Munster, Leinster possibly...but again analogies don't hold as these are provinces not clubs..Cardiff are playing like drains in the ML all season and the hairsprays are their usual erratic selves..

Tim Robbins

thomond2006 wrote: »

Fair enough so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

ML is far better. Welsh club rugby was also more entertaining than English.
Then Bath / Leicester threw it around for a few season. But, Welsh teams have also been playing heads up Rugby.

sock puppet

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Van der linde came here for the money and he's showing it, the fact he's 28 or just won a WC doesnt make a difference. Maybe with an extended run he'll up his game, but he's not playing at the level he should be and certainly not at the level for the pay he's on.


Top 6 might have more internationals, but in the entire league I think GP would easily have more internationals then the ML. The ML is a 3 horse race, and it's usually the same every year the GP is wide open and it always is every year. I'd much rather match between a top 6 side in the GP like Bath vs Lecister then Osphreys vs Edinburgh. It's the Leinster/Munster interest that makes the ML interesting, outside of that it's muck.

Wide open? If you mean wide open between Wasps and Leicester then yes it is usually. Though from the looks of things this year will be different. The ML has had 5 different winners since its inception and no team has dominated.

Chucky the tree

sock puppet wrote: »

Wide open? If you mean wide open between Wasps and Leicester then yes it is usually. Though from the looks of things this year will be different. The ML has had 5 different winners since its inception and no team has dominated.

Yes wide open. This year there's a 9 points difference between Bath(7th) and Gloucster at the top, Bath have two games in hand aswell. Last year Lecister tigers grabbed 4th spot, with two teams behind them on 63 points. The play-off system is alot better and I'm glad ML have switched to it, I think it will have a big help on it's populairty. I suppose your idea of wide open is having the winner finish 6 points ahead of 2nd, and 13 ahead of 3rd? It's certainly wide anyway.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Van der linde came here for the money and he's showing it, the fact he's 28 or just won a WC doesnt make a difference. Maybe with an extended run he'll up his game, but he's not playing at the level he should be and certainly not at the level for the pay he's on.

You called him a journeyman.
He is still one of the premier props in the world and at his peak.He does seem to be made of glass though.

I would class a journeyman as wikipedia have it

"A journeyman or journeywoman is an athlete or professional sports player who is technically competent, but unable to excel."

Van der linde is not a journeyman,that phrase however does sum up 80% of foreign playes in the GP.

sock puppet

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes wide open. This year there's a 9 points difference between Bath(7th) and Gloucster at the top, Bath have two games in hand aswell. Last year Lecister tigers grabbed 4th spot, with two teams behind them on 63 points. The play-off system is alot better and I'm glad ML have switched to it, I think it will have a big help on it's populairty. I suppose your idea of wide open is having the winner finish 6 points ahead of 2nd, and 13 ahead of 3rd? It's certainly wide anyway.

But when it comes to the final it's almost always the same teams. Yes there is a large gap between the sides a lot of the time in the ML but it's not like France where it's the same sides every year. Also what about the 07 season? 3 sides in contention going into the last round. Or Ulster snatching it from Leinster in the last minute in 2006. There have been exciting finishes to the ML. I agree playoffs should make the latter part of the season more interesting. The thing is would there be problems with hosting it? Would it be like in the HEC? Leinster playing Munster in Cardiff would be impractical and were a Scottish side to make it attendances could be pretty low. How do the S14 decide their venue?

Stev_o

Some people here are really bending the facts.

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

Oh and what's with this whole idea that GP is very one out of the ruck orientated? How many here watched the London Irish vs Leicester game on Sunday? Game ended 28-31 to the Tigers and not one try was scored from a player bashing over from a ruck. It was lovely free flowing rugby and it completely restored my faith in Rugby Union after the most lethargic 6N weekend iv seen in a very long while.


If your going to make a big statement like some people have then please back it up with some hard evidence please. It's very easy to be lazy and say X is better then Y and have no proof what so ever.

[Jackass]

Stev_o wrote: »

Some people here are really bending the facts.

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

4 of those GP Heineken Cup trophies were won before the Magners league even existed in its current format and also before regionalised teams in Wales existed.

In the 6 years since it's:
GP 2 (both Wasps)
ML 2 (both Munster)
T14 2 (both Tolouse)

toomevara wrote:

Been twice, its an appalling atmosphere free barn, which is generally half empty..

When & what games? Average attendence this year is over 16,000 - it only holds 18,500 and Leinster were the 3rd best supported team in Europe last season by average attendence. and the atmosphere there is generally very good.

You seem to like the stereotypes, ML not taken seriously, GP is this amazing competition (but the only reason they've been out performed in all competitions by ML teams on an increasing scale each season is they're league is so amazing it's just not possible to perform outside of it?)

toomevara wrote:

Not bothered about the grounds tbh, its the quality of the competition on the field and the atmosphere that concerns me and most fans...

Is this the new criteria to your argument then? Well, we've already established the EDF and European credentials of ML seem to be better and that more international players are involved in each game etc., so is it crowd numbers? I thought it was pointed out that ML gets as good crowds generally, better in some cases, so is GP better because you think the crowds make more noise?

toomevara wrote:

Fine but the comparisons are irrelevant because GP teams are in a proper competitive league which invovles a massively long attritional season which tests their squad depth and players minds and bodies in ways which the ML clubs couldn't conceive...

Stick Cardiff or the ospreys into the GP, have them fight for qualification to the HEC, instead of virtually guaranteed qualification and see how they go...they'd struggle, no doubt.

Well...Cardiff had no problem smashing Gloucester with 9 points from a possible 10 in the HEC games this season - Gloucester usually finish around top don't they?

Ospreys didn't fold under the pressure of the EDF cup final last year v Leicester either...I don't get your point...are you presuming that if they played these teams week in week out that all of a sudden Cardiff wouldn't be as good as Gloucester and be relegated or something??

What does the ML qualification for HEC have to do with anything? In the big competitions the big results seem to go ML's way.

toomevara wrote:

But still patently the case. I've watched alot of ML games this year on Setanta, and frankly, with one or two exceptions I've been bored catatonic...

I don't blame you!! Setanta's coverage is terrible! From analysis, to that mono-tone commentator, to the crowd noise completely left out. Sky & BBC are very good at bringing atmosphere across on TV whatever they do with mic's in the ground and at the right level for the commentator to speak over, but Setanta are no good at this. Good example is next 6 nations game you watch...watch 10 seconds on BBC then switch to RTE and see the difference in background crowd noise..some of it is awful to watch on TV, I'll give you that!!

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

Some people here are really bending the facts.

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

Oh and what's with this whole idea that GP is very one out of the ruck orientated? How many here watched the London Irish vs Leicester game on Sunday? Game ended 28-31 to the Tigers and not one try was scored from a player bashing over from a ruck. It was lovely free flowing rugby and it completely restored my faith in Rugby Union after the most lethargic 6N weekend iv seen in a very long while.

+1 Stev_o and right on the money..It's become fashionable in the celtic nations to knock the GP and trot out sterotypical recycled sh1te bearing only a passing acquaintance with the reality.Often it has feck all to do with rugby and the understanding of it and a lot more to do with convenient brit-bashing with little or no basis in fact...great competition, great teams, brilliant history, great support and superb players, thats the reality and the bottom line of the GP.

The fact that alot of the critiscism emanates from countries such as Ireland, Wales and Scotland where the club game has completely disintegrated and a sticking plaster/artificial provincial approach has been adopted which means that there is no meaningful competiton within these countries just renders the whole thing even more laughable.....

GP clubs have a massive season which is attritional in the extreme, and here's the most important part, they have to sing for their supper. They don't get bailed out by the likes of the IRFU, Its sink or swim, and of course they don't have guaranteed access to the HEC like Munster/Leinster/The Ospreys et al do...This means that the focus is obviously different to the less intense season which the Celtic provinces undergo...Scottish, Weslh and Irish clubs/provinces would, imo, really struggle to make the grade over the course of a season were they parachuted into the dog eat dog world of the GP.

The ML teams have it easy, and play bugger all rugby when compared to the English clubs.

toomevara

[QUOTE='[Jackass]


When & what games? Average attendence this year is over 16,000 - it only holds 18,500 and Leinster were the 3rd best supported team in Europe last season by average attendence. and the atmosphere there is generally very good.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry jackass, my bad...meant the new parc y scarlets..The RDS and the Leinster support are absolutely superb in all comps, a real credit to the blues.

Podge_irl

Stev_o wrote: »

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

Where did I mention that? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just afraid my memory is failing me!

I think people's memories are far too short with regards the success of ML teams in Europe and their general competitiveness. Wasps and Leicester dominated the HEC just a few years ago in much the same way that Munster are doing at the moment - while remaining more competitive in their domestic league then Munster usually do.

I like the ML. Its improved year on year and is a thoroughly entertaining league. But its certainly not without its flaws. You get many a match with ridiculously weak teams put out because of European concerns - not something the GP teams generally do. International call-ups also affect the ML a lot more, though that's reasonably unavoidable. As regards the quality of play, the GP has many free-flowing, high-scoring games. In contrast Ospreys-Connacht was the worst game I've ever had the misfortune to see in my life.

I prefer the ML, not least because I have a vested interest in it. However there are a lot of talented teams/players in the GP, and a lot of fantastic games. Yes, there are turgid games, especially amongst those battling for relegation. But on the other hand the ML has several games where one or both of the teams clearly don't give much of a crap. Toom is right, its somehow become fashionable to berate the GP (not least I imagine because the national team is going through a tough spot) and I have to wonder if those who claim its over-rated because Sky Sports glam it up actually ever watch the games, or are just parotting the fashionable opinion (which would be hilariously ironic).

Chucky the tree

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

You called him a journeyman.
He is still one of the premier props in the world and at his peak.He does seem to be made of glass though.

I would class a journeyman as wikipedia have it

"A journeyman or journeywoman is an athlete or professional sports player who is technically competent, but unable to excel."

Van der linde is not a journeyman,that phrase however does sum up 80% of foreign playes in the GP.

My opinion of journeyman differs from wiki. But I'll change my wording if it helps, CJ is an unmotivated money-grabber who is playing poorly this season. I'll disagree that 80% of the foriegners in the GP are journeymen aswell.

sock puppet wrote: »

But when it comes to the final it's almost always the same teams. Yes there is a large gap between the sides a lot of the time in the ML but it's not like France where it's the same sides every year. Also what about the 07 season? 3 sides in contention going into the last round. Or Ulster snatching it from Leinster in the last minute in 2006. There have been exciting finishes to the ML. I agree playoffs should make the latter part of the season more interesting. The thing is would there be problems with hosting it? Would it be like in the HEC? Leinster playing Munster in Cardiff would be impractical and were a Scottish side to make it attendances could be pretty low. How do the S14 decide their venue?

Leicister and Wasps just happen to me masters of that format. In the ML I think you'll see Munster being very similiar with their HEC experience. I suppose the past way to do it is just rotate the final every year, murrayfield, lansdowne, millenium stadium. If just flip a coin when the finalists are known and from different countries.

buck65

Guys I do think that the ML is good but certaily not the finished article. I have seen some brutal stuff this season and I would say that maybe half the games are played in front of half full grounds.
The GP is usually in front of a full house with a great atmosphere which even makes a luke warm game more exciting.

Chucky the tree

[Jackass] wrote: »

4 of those GP Heineken Cup trophies were won before the Magners league even existed in its current format and also before regionalised teams in Wales existed.

In the 6 years since it's:
GP 2 (both Wasps)
ML 2 (both Munster)
T14 2 (both Tolouse)
!

Lets open it up to semi-finalists. in the last 6 years there have been GP teams have reach the semi's 9 times, ML 8 times(Musnter 5 times), top 14 8 times. In the last 3 years it's been 6 GP, 4 ML, 2 Top 14. The fact that in the years Munster have done well they've basically ignored the ML and put all their work into the HEC, you cant say the same about the GP team, specially Leicister and Wasps.

Without Munsters in the HEC the ML would look awful, with only 3 other teams reaching the semi's in the last 6 years and not one reaching the final.

gosplan

escobar wrote: »

The only way to judge the leagues against each other though is in competition and we have half the teams in the knockout stages of the HC this year.

I don't think any european league has gotten 4 teams through to the knockout stages before!!!!

One swallow does not a summer make.

You think if those teams were thrust into the Top 14 it'd be the four of them and Toulouse making the top five places???

escobar

Toomevara, Is it not the pot calling the kettle black. Blaming people from the celtic nations for knocking the GP while you're knocking the CL. Hypocritical perhaps....

Teams in the GP could play 100 games each it would still be the same boring ploddding one dimensional rugby. Similar enough to how the English national team play....

The magners league teams would destroy their GP counterparts. I know you're the great defender of all things GP but you can't dispute the facts.

This year the magners league is the best league in europe. They have 4 teams into the knockout stages of the heineken cup ,something which the GP has never achieved, and is in fact a record .

THe CL also has the two favourites to win the HC this year in the blues and munster.

Anyone can give an opinion as to which league they think is better but the only way to judge the quality of the leagues against each other is in international competition. Most of your points are merley emotive and not based in fact.


The GP is falling apart and as players contracts end they will leave the GP for greener pastures. This won't change unless the value of sterling does. The GP simply can't afford the better players. Martin Johnson is very worried about this prospect

''Martin Johnson sent out a veiled threat to England players eyeing a lucrative move to France that their international prospects would be less rosy if they were to follow the three Wasps players, James Haskell, Riki Flutey and Tom Palmer, across the Channel.''
Players such as Geraghty, and even Wasps' Danny Cipriani, have yet to confirm their plans.

escobar

gosplan wrote: »

One swallow does not a summer make.

You think if those teams were thrust into the Top 14 it'd be the four of them and Toulouse making the top five places???

I could guess but the only way to form a true opinion is through international competition. Those results speak for themselves. see above

Chucky the tree

escobar wrote: »

I could guess but the only way to form a true opinion is through international competition. Those results speak for themselves. see above

Wow, what a really stupid way of judging it.

escobar wrote: »

The magners league teams would destroy their GP counterparts. I know you're the great defender of all things GP but you can't dispute the facts
.

What? Munsters beat sale sharks twice. Leinster and Wasps won one a piece, Wasps beat Edinburugh twice, Osphreys and Lecister won one a piece, Quinns beat Scarlets twice, Quinns and Ulster tie, Bath beat the Dragons twice and glasgow twice, Cardiff beat gloucster twice,. So the GP teams beat their ML couter-parts more often in the Heineken cup this season and those really are facts you cant dispute.

ScholesyIsGod

The magners league teams would destroy their GP counterparts. I know you're the great defender of all things GP but you can't dispute the facts.

How is that a fact? Thats a statement.

This year the magners league is the best league in europe. They have 4 teams into the knockout stages of the heineken cup ,something which the GP has never achieved, and is in fact a record .

You need to do a bit more research.

gosplan

escobar wrote: »

I could guess but the only way to form a true opinion is through international competition. Those results speak for themselves. see above

Sorry but I think that's a seriously flawed argument. But in keeping with it, I've some questions for you.

1: Were England and South Africa the two BEST teams in international rugby in 2007? (international competition)

2: Were Ulster the best club rugby team in Europe in 1998-1999? (international competition)

3: Do you think it's an advantage to have Treviso or Calvisano in your Heineken cup group as Cardiff and Ospreys did this year? I'm not saying they wouldn't have qualified but do you think you can get a lucky draw for a year.

4: What do you think of the Heineken cup seedings? - I guess you think they're rubbish, no?