ML or GP

toomevara · 04-03-2009 06:07PM

[Jackass] wrote: »

Look up the GP website. Exluding games in Twickenham, the highest attended game in GP this season wouldn't even fill the RDS. Never mind the gates of 20,500 and 25,000 brought in by Ospreys and Munster this season.

Exceptions to the rule.

Parc y Scarlets, RDS have all been developed to better than anything you will find in the GP

Been twice, its an appalling atmosphere free barn, which is generally half empty..

Facility wise, ML is, without question, already well ahead of GP even at this early stage of development, and these are hard cold facts without prejiduce. If you don't believe me I'll post capacity and pictures of state of the art ML grounds vs the old, creaking sheds used in GP which are smaller and far less fan friendly.

Not bothered about the grounds tbh, its the quality of the competition on the field and the atmosphere that concerns me and most fans...

Now to the teams, in the EDF cup, Ospreys, the ML side who are defending champions against all of the GP teams, won their group knocking out GP league leaders for a good chunk of the season London Irish and high flying Harlequins who are 3rd (?) at the moment.

Fine but the comparisons are irrelevant because GP teams are in a proper competitive league which invovles a massively long attritional season which tests their squad depth and players minds and bodies in ways which the ML clubs couldn't conceive...

Stick Cardiff or the ospreys into the GP, have them fight for qualification to the HEC, instead of virtually guaranteed qualification and see how they go...they'd struggle, no doubt.

The quality of team in the ML is, without question, better than that of the GP. Absolutely no question about it. Don't mind the hype, don't mind the flashing lights, shiny bits, sky enduced broadway show, on the coal face, ML is better.

Irrelevant, I attend between 10 and 14 GP (probably more than most folk contributing to this thread I'd hazard a guess)games a year...I'm quite capable of seeing through the sky glitz and media hype to the nub of the matter and making my own mind up thanks...

The old notion of "teams don't take it seriously" is an old argument that is getting weaker and weaker each year.

But still patently the case. I've watched alot of ML games this year on Setanta, and frankly, with one or two exceptions I've been bored catatonic...

Go watch Munster, Leinster, Cardiff Ospreys and you'll see even better rugby.

Munster, Leinster possibly...but again analogies don't hold as these are provinces not clubs..Cardiff are playing like drains in the ML all season and the hairsprays are their usual erratic selves..

Tim Robbins · 04-03-2009 06:11PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Fair enough so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

ML is far better. Welsh club rugby was also more entertaining than English.
Then Bath / Leicester threw it around for a few season. But, Welsh teams have also been playing heads up Rugby.

sock puppet · 04-03-2009 06:33PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Van der linde came here for the money and he's showing it, the fact he's 28 or just won a WC doesnt make a difference. Maybe with an extended run he'll up his game, but he's not playing at the level he should be and certainly not at the level for the pay he's on.

Top 6 might have more internationals, but in the entire league I think GP would easily have more internationals then the ML. The ML is a 3 horse race, and it's usually the same every year the GP is wide open and it always is every year. I'd much rather match between a top 6 side in the GP like Bath vs Lecister then Osphreys vs Edinburgh. It's the Leinster/Munster interest that makes the ML interesting, outside of that it's muck.

Wide open? If you mean wide open between Wasps and Leicester then yes it is usually. Though from the looks of things this year will be different. The ML has had 5 different winners since its inception and no team has dominated.

Chucky the tree · 04-03-2009 06:44PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Wide open? If you mean wide open between Wasps and Leicester then yes it is usually. Though from the looks of things this year will be different. The ML has had 5 different winners since its inception and no team has dominated.

Yes wide open. This year there's a 9 points difference between Bath(7th) and Gloucster at the top, Bath have two games in hand aswell. Last year Lecister tigers grabbed 4th spot, with two teams behind them on 63 points. The play-off system is alot better and I'm glad ML have switched to it, I think it will have a big help on it's populairty. I suppose your idea of wide open is having the winner finish 6 points ahead of 2nd, and 13 ahead of 3rd? It's certainly wide anyway.

04-03-2009 07:01PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Van der linde came here for the money and he's showing it, the fact he's 28 or just won a WC doesnt make a difference. Maybe with an extended run he'll up his game, but he's not playing at the level he should be and certainly not at the level for the pay he's on.

You called him a journeyman.
He is still one of the premier props in the world and at his peak.He does seem to be made of glass though.

I would class a journeyman as wikipedia have it

"A journeyman or journeywoman is an athlete or professional sports player who is technically competent, but unable to excel."

Van der linde is not a journeyman,that phrase however does sum up 80% of foreign playes in the GP.

sock puppet · 04-03-2009 07:15PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes wide open. This year there's a 9 points difference between Bath(7th) and Gloucster at the top, Bath have two games in hand aswell. Last year Lecister tigers grabbed 4th spot, with two teams behind them on 63 points. The play-off system is alot better and I'm glad ML have switched to it, I think it will have a big help on it's populairty. I suppose your idea of wide open is having the winner finish 6 points ahead of 2nd, and 13 ahead of 3rd? It's certainly wide anyway.

But when it comes to the final it's almost always the same teams. Yes there is a large gap between the sides a lot of the time in the ML but it's not like France where it's the same sides every year. Also what about the 07 season? 3 sides in contention going into the last round. Or Ulster snatching it from Leinster in the last minute in 2006. There have been exciting finishes to the ML. I agree playoffs should make the latter part of the season more interesting. The thing is would there be problems with hosting it? Would it be like in the HEC? Leinster playing Munster in Cardiff would be impractical and were a Scottish side to make it attendances could be pretty low. How do the S14 decide their venue?

Stev_o · 04-03-2009 09:27PM

Some people here are really bending the facts.

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

Oh and what's with this whole idea that GP is very one out of the ruck orientated? How many here watched the London Irish vs Leicester game on Sunday? Game ended 28-31 to the Tigers and not one try was scored from a player bashing over from a ruck. It was lovely free flowing rugby and it completely restored my faith in Rugby Union after the most lethargic 6N weekend iv seen in a very long while.

If your going to make a big statement like some people have then please back it up with some hard evidence please. It's very easy to be lazy and say X is better then Y and have no proof what so ever.

[Jackass] · 04-03-2009 09:55PM

Stev_o wrote: »

Some people here are really bending the facts.

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

4 of those GP Heineken Cup trophies were won before the Magners league even existed in its current format and also before regionalised teams in Wales existed.

In the 6 years since it's:
GP 2 (both Wasps)
ML 2 (both Munster)
T14 2 (both Tolouse)

toomevara wrote:

Been twice, its an appalling atmosphere free barn, which is generally half empty..

When & what games?

Average attendence this year is over 16,000 - it only holds 18,500 and Leinster were the 3rd best supported team in Europe last season by average attendence.

and the atmosphere there is generally very good.

You seem to like the stereotypes, ML not taken seriously, GP is this amazing competition (but the only reason they've been out performed in all competitions by ML teams on an increasing scale each season is they're league is so amazing it's just not possible to perform outside of it?)

toomevara wrote:

Not bothered about the grounds tbh, its the quality of the competition on the field and the atmosphere that concerns me and most fans...

Is this the new criteria to your argument then? Well, we've already established the EDF and European credentials of ML seem to be better and that more international players are involved in each game etc., so is it crowd numbers? I thought it was pointed out that ML gets as good crowds generally, better in some cases, so is GP better because you think the crowds make more noise?

toomevara wrote:

Fine but the comparisons are irrelevant because GP teams are in a proper competitive league which invovles a massively long attritional season which tests their squad depth and players minds and bodies in ways which the ML clubs couldn't conceive...

Stick Cardiff or the ospreys into the GP, have them fight for qualification to the HEC, instead of virtually guaranteed qualification and see how they go...they'd struggle, no doubt.

Well...Cardiff had no problem smashing Gloucester with 9 points from a possible 10 in the HEC games this season - Gloucester usually finish around top don't they?

Ospreys didn't fold under the pressure of the EDF cup final last year v Leicester either...I don't get your point...are you presuming that if they played these teams week in week out that all of a sudden Cardiff wouldn't be as good as Gloucester and be relegated or something??

What does the ML qualification for HEC have to do with anything? In the big competitions the big results seem to go ML's way.

toomevara wrote:

But still patently the case. I've watched alot of ML games this year on Setanta, and frankly, with one or two exceptions I've been bored catatonic...

I don't blame you!! Setanta's coverage is terrible! From analysis, to that mono-tone commentator, to the crowd noise completely left out. Sky & BBC are very good at bringing atmosphere across on TV whatever they do with mic's in the ground and at the right level for the commentator to speak over, but Setanta are no good at this. Good example is next 6 nations game you watch...watch 10 seconds on BBC then switch to RTE and see the difference in background crowd noise..some of it is awful to watch on TV, I'll give you that!!

toomevara · 04-03-2009 10:03PM

Stev_o wrote: »

Some people here are really bending the facts.

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

Oh and what's with this whole idea that GP is very one out of the ruck orientated? How many here watched the London Irish vs Leicester game on Sunday? Game ended 28-31 to the Tigers and not one try was scored from a player bashing over from a ruck. It was lovely free flowing rugby and it completely restored my faith in Rugby Union after the most lethargic 6N weekend iv seen in a very long while.

+1 Stev_o and right on the money..It's become fashionable in the celtic nations to knock the GP and trot out sterotypical recycled sh1te bearing only a passing acquaintance with the reality.Often it has feck all to do with rugby and the understanding of it and a lot more to do with convenient brit-bashing with little or no basis in fact...great competition, great teams, brilliant history, great support and superb players, thats the reality and the bottom line of the GP.

The fact that alot of the critiscism emanates from countries such as Ireland, Wales and Scotland where the club game has completely disintegrated and a sticking plaster/artificial provincial approach has been adopted which means that there is no meaningful competiton within these countries just renders the whole thing even more laughable.....

GP clubs have a massive season which is attritional in the extreme, and here's the most important part, they have to sing for their supper. They don't get bailed out by the likes of the IRFU, Its sink or swim, and of course they don't have guaranteed access to the HEC like Munster/Leinster/The Ospreys et al do...This means that the focus is obviously different to the less intense season which the Celtic provinces undergo...Scottish, Weslh and Irish clubs/provinces would, imo, really struggle to make the grade over the course of a season were they parachuted into the dog eat dog world of the GP.

The ML teams have it easy, and play bugger all rugby when compared to the English clubs.

toomevara · 04-03-2009 10:07PM

[QUOTE='[Jackass]

When & what games?

Average attendence this year is over 16,000 - it only holds 18,500 and Leinster were the 3rd best supported team in Europe last season by average attendence.

and the atmosphere there is generally very good.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry jackass, my bad...meant the new parc y scarlets..The RDS and the Leinster support are absolutely superb in all comps, a real credit to the blues.

Podge_irl · 05-03-2009 12:03AM

Stev_o wrote: »

If you want to go on Podge's approach of judging success by % of trophies won then the GP win's on total amount of HC's won.

GP-6
Top14-4
Magners-3

Where did I mention that? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just afraid my memory is failing me!

I think people's memories are far too short with regards the success of ML teams in Europe and their general competitiveness. Wasps and Leicester dominated the HEC just a few years ago in much the same way that Munster are doing at the moment - while remaining more competitive in their domestic league then Munster usually do.

I like the ML. Its improved year on year and is a thoroughly entertaining league. But its certainly not without its flaws. You get many a match with ridiculously weak teams put out because of European concerns - not something the GP teams generally do. International call-ups also affect the ML a lot more, though that's reasonably unavoidable. As regards the quality of play, the GP has many free-flowing, high-scoring games. In contrast Ospreys-Connacht was the worst game I've ever had the misfortune to see in my life.

I prefer the ML, not least because I have a vested interest in it. However there are a lot of talented teams/players in the GP, and a lot of fantastic games. Yes, there are turgid games, especially amongst those battling for relegation. But on the other hand the ML has several games where one or both of the teams clearly don't give much of a crap. Toom is right, its somehow become fashionable to berate the GP (not least I imagine because the national team is going through a tough spot) and I have to wonder if those who claim its over-rated because Sky Sports glam it up actually ever watch the games, or are just parotting the fashionable opinion (which would be hilariously ironic).

Chucky the tree · 05-03-2009 09:00AM

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

You called him a journeyman.
He is still one of the premier props in the world and at his peak.He does seem to be made of glass though.

I would class a journeyman as wikipedia have it

"A journeyman or journeywoman is an athlete or professional sports player who is technically competent, but unable to excel."

Van der linde is not a journeyman,that phrase however does sum up 80% of foreign playes in the GP.

My opinion of journeyman differs from wiki. But I'll change my wording if it helps, CJ is an unmotivated money-grabber who is playing poorly this season. I'll disagree that 80% of the foriegners in the GP are journeymen aswell.

sock puppet wrote: »

But when it comes to the final it's almost always the same teams. Yes there is a large gap between the sides a lot of the time in the ML but it's not like France where it's the same sides every year. Also what about the 07 season? 3 sides in contention going into the last round. Or Ulster snatching it from Leinster in the last minute in 2006. There have been exciting finishes to the ML. I agree playoffs should make the latter part of the season more interesting. The thing is would there be problems with hosting it? Would it be like in the HEC? Leinster playing Munster in Cardiff would be impractical and were a Scottish side to make it attendances could be pretty low. How do the S14 decide their venue?

Leicister and Wasps just happen to me masters of that format. In the ML I think you'll see Munster being very similiar with their HEC experience. I suppose the past way to do it is just rotate the final every year, murrayfield, lansdowne, millenium stadium. If just flip a coin when the finalists are known and from different countries.

buck65 · 05-03-2009 09:22AM

Guys I do think that the ML is good but certaily not the finished article. I have seen some brutal stuff this season and I would say that maybe half the games are played in front of half full grounds.
The GP is usually in front of a full house with a great atmosphere which even makes a luke warm game more exciting.

Chucky the tree · 05-03-2009 09:23AM

[Jackass] wrote: »

4 of those GP Heineken Cup trophies were won before the Magners league even existed in its current format and also before regionalised teams in Wales existed.

In the 6 years since it's:
GP 2 (both Wasps)
ML 2 (both Munster)
T14 2 (both Tolouse)
!

Lets open it up to semi-finalists. in the last 6 years there have been GP teams have reach the semi's 9 times, ML 8 times(Musnter 5 times), top 14 8 times. In the last 3 years it's been 6 GP, 4 ML, 2 Top 14. The fact that in the years Munster have done well they've basically ignored the ML and put all their work into the HEC, you cant say the same about the GP team, specially Leicister and Wasps.

Without Munsters in the HEC the ML would look awful, with only 3 other teams reaching the semi's in the last 6 years and not one reaching the final.

gosplan · 05-03-2009 10:53AM

escobar wrote: »

The only way to judge the leagues against each other though is in competition and we have half the teams in the knockout stages of the HC this year.

I don't think any european league has gotten 4 teams through to the knockout stages before!!!!

One swallow does not a summer make.

You think if those teams were thrust into the Top 14 it'd be the four of them and Toulouse making the top five places???

escobar · 05-03-2009 11:05AM

Toomevara, Is it not the pot calling the kettle black. Blaming people from the celtic nations for knocking the GP while you're knocking the CL.

Hypocritical perhaps....

Teams in the GP could play 100 games each it would still be the same boring ploddding one dimensional rugby. Similar enough to how the English national team play....

The magners league teams would destroy their GP counterparts. I know you're the great defender of all things GP but you can't dispute the facts.

This year the magners league is the best league in europe. They have 4 teams into the knockout stages of the heineken cup ,something which the GP has never achieved, and is in fact a record .

THe CL also has the two favourites to win the HC this year in the blues and munster.

Anyone can give an opinion as to which league they think is better but the only way to judge the quality of the leagues against each other is in international competition. Most of your points are merley emotive and not based in fact.

The GP is falling apart and as players contracts end they will leave the GP for greener pastures. This won't change unless the value of sterling does. The GP simply can't afford the better players. Martin Johnson is very worried about this prospect

''Martin Johnson sent out a veiled threat to England players eyeing a lucrative move to France that their international prospects would be less rosy if they were to follow the three Wasps players, James Haskell, Riki Flutey and Tom Palmer, across the Channel.''
Players such as Geraghty, and even Wasps' Danny Cipriani, have yet to confirm their plans.

escobar · 05-03-2009 11:12AM

gosplan wrote: »

One swallow does not a summer make.

You think if those teams were thrust into the Top 14 it'd be the four of them and Toulouse making the top five places???

I could guess but the only way to form a true opinion is through international competition. Those results speak for themselves. see above

Chucky the tree · 05-03-2009 12:51PM

escobar wrote: »

I could guess but the only way to form a true opinion is through international competition. Those results speak for themselves. see above

Wow, what a really stupid way of judging it.

escobar wrote: »

The magners league teams would destroy their GP counterparts. I know you're the great defender of all things GP but you can't dispute the facts
.

What? Munsters beat sale sharks twice. Leinster and Wasps won one a piece, Wasps beat Edinburugh twice, Osphreys and Lecister won one a piece, Quinns beat Scarlets twice, Quinns and Ulster tie, Bath beat the Dragons twice and glasgow twice, Cardiff beat gloucster twice,. So the GP teams beat their ML couter-parts more often in the Heineken cup this season and those really are facts you cant dispute.

ScholesyIsGod · 05-03-2009 01:38PM

The magners league teams would destroy their GP counterparts. I know you're the great defender of all things GP but you can't dispute the facts.

How is that a fact? Thats a statement.

This year the magners league is the best league in europe. They have 4 teams into the knockout stages of the heineken cup ,something which the GP has never achieved, and is in fact a record .

You need to do a bit more research.

gosplan · 05-03-2009 02:00PM

escobar wrote: »

I could guess but the only way to form a true opinion is through international competition. Those results speak for themselves. see above

Sorry but I think that's a seriously flawed argument. But in keeping with it, I've some questions for you.

1: Were England and South Africa the two BEST teams in international rugby in 2007? (international competition)

2: Were Ulster the best club rugby team in Europe in 1998-1999? (international competition)

3: Do you think it's an advantage to have Treviso or Calvisano in your Heineken cup group as Cardiff and Ospreys did this year? I'm not saying they wouldn't have qualified but do you think you can get a lucky draw for a year.

4: What do you think of the Heineken cup seedings? - I guess you think they're rubbish, no?

toomevara · 05-03-2009 05:13PM

escobar wrote: »

Toomevara, Is it not the pot calling the kettle black. Blaming people from the celtic nations for knocking the GP while you're knocking the CL. Hypocritical perhaps....

I'm not knocking it, I think it's an OK competition...I just cant abide the way a competiton which is patently inferior to the GP is talked up by folks who have an excellent capacity for self-delusion. The ML is second rate, any objective rugby fan worth his salt knows it...

Teams in the GP could play 100 games each it would still be the same boring ploddding one dimensional rugby. Similar enough to how the English national team play....

There you go again, repeating this stereotypical nonsense...I've watched a fair few GP games this year and none have been 'plodding' or one-dimensional, this is a canard, easily trotted out with no basis in fact...people look at the way the England team play and assume this must be the way rugby is played in the GP, it isn't...last weekend's cracker against LI and Leicester is more typical of GP fare these days...fast, competitive, tough and skillful....i.e. the kind of stuff notable for its complete absence in your average ML edge-free snorefest

The magners league teams would destroy their GP counterparts. I know you're the great defender of all things GP but you can't dispute the facts.

I can and I do, four ML teams would just about cut it in the grinding gladitorial GP, the rest would have their asses handed to them over a season...

This year the magners league is the best league in europe. They have 4 teams into the knockout stages of the heineken cup ,something which the GP has never achieved, and is in fact a record .

It is no co-incidence at all, that two of those teams had pointless Italian outfits in their groups.

Most of your points are merley emotive and not based in fact.

Nonsense, a subjective opinion, yes, just like yours...but not 'emotive' rather, based on the evidence of my eyes....watching hours of both comps and coming to the entirely logical and rational conclusion that the ML is apart, from a few clashes a load of, pardon the pun, balls.

The GP is falling apart and as players contracts end they will leave the GP for greener pastures. This won't change unless the value of sterling does. The GP simply can't afford the better players. Martin Johnson is very worried about this prospect

Again, nonsense with no basis in fact..players are not leaving the GP en masse in fact the worlds best are still clamouring to get in and indeed all the clubs, with the possible exception of Bristol, are on a solid financial footing

''Martin Johnson sent out a veiled threat to England players eyeing a lucrative move to France that their international prospects would be less rosy if they were to follow the three Wasps players, James Haskell, Riki Flutey and Tom Palmer, across the Channel.''
Players such as Geraghty, and even Wasps' Danny Cipriani, have yet to confirm their plans.

What's that got to do with the GP? Don't conflate England and RFU issues with the GP. . Johnson is merely attempting to keep players under his control through the RFU elite player system, like kidney and the IRFU do. So a few players bugger to France for a payday, big deal..it does not signal the end of the GP, thats patently absurd. Both Geraghty and Cipriani will be playing in the GP next year..it's just a question of at which club...

Podge_irl · 05-03-2009 09:34PM

toomevara wrote: »

I'm not knocking it, I think it's an OK competition...I just cant abide the way a competiton which is patently inferior to the GP is talked up by folks who have an excellent capacity for self-delusion. The ML is second rate, any objective rugby fan worth his salt knows it...

The ML is not second-rate. It was second rate and has inevitably taken time to get going, but it is a strong competition now. It is by no means "patently inferior" to the GP, nor is it obviously superior to it. Both leagues provide appalling games, both leagues provide excellent games with the norm being somewhere in between.

Using European results as a means of judging the respective leagues is pointless. It doesnt tell us which league is better, it merely tells us which teams excelled in the HEC. All three main NH leagues serve their purpose reasonably well.

Serenity Now! · 05-03-2009 09:36PM

The people who say the Premiership in England is up-the-jumper obviously don't watch it enough. Last weekend alone shoves their lazy presumption down the u-bend.

toomevara · 06-03-2009 08:44AM

Serenity Now! wrote: »

The people who say the Premiership in England is up-the-jumper obviously don't watch it enough. Last weekend alone shoves their lazy presumption down the u-bend.

Spot on, Bath V Gloucester, LI V Leicester and Saracens/Sale were all cracking games of rugby..the first two in particular were two of the best games I've seen in any competition club, or international, all season. And that from a weekend where teams are allegedly shorn of their international stars.What does that say about the strength in depth and the quality of your average GP outfit?

escobar · 06-03-2009 05:22PM

toomevara wrote: »

I'm not knocking it, I think it's an OK competition...I just cant abide the way a competiton which is patently inferior to the GP is talked up by folks who have an excellent capacity for self-delusion. The ML is second rate, any objective rugby fan worth his salt knows it...

There you go again, repeating this stereotypical nonsense...I've watched a fair few GP games this year and none have been 'plodding' or one-dimensional, this is a canard, easily trotted out with no basis in fact...people look at the way the England team play and assume this must be the way rugby is played in the GP, it isn't...last weekend's cracker against LI and Leicester is more typical of GP fare these days...fast, competitive, tough and skillful....i.e. the kind of stuff notable for its complete absence in your average ML edge-free snorefest

I can and I do, four ML teams would just about cut it in the grinding gladitorial GP, the rest would have their asses handed to them over a season...

It is no co-incidence at all, that two of those teams had pointless Italian outfits in their groups.

Nonsense, a subjective opinion, yes, just like yours...but not 'emotive' rather, based on the evidence of my eyes....watching hours of both comps and coming to the entirely logical and rational conclusion that the ML is apart, from a few clashes a load of, pardon the pun, balls.

Again, nonsense with no basis in fact..players are not leaving the GP en masse in fact the worlds best are still clamouring to get in and indeed all the clubs, with the possible exception of Bristol, are on a solid financial footing

What's that got to do with the GP? Don't conflate England and RFU issues with the GP. . Johnson is merely attempting to keep players under his control through the RFU elite player system, like kidney and the IRFU do. So a few players bugger to France for a payday, big deal..it does not signal the end of the GP, thats patently absurd. Both Geraghty and Cipriani will be playing in the GP next year..it's just a question of at which club...

You're not knocking the ML and yet you call it a snore fest.:D
Which by the way is a flagrant copy of my comments about your last rant on the GP. C'mon you can do better than that

Talking about canard comments how can you call the ML second rate when 40% of it's teams are in the top eight of european teams this year with the blues and munster being favourites to win the comp outright.

You are being quite patriotic which is fine but to suggest that only 4 teams in the ML would make it in the GP is only an opinion and is again subjective and not based in fact. Doesn't really matter how many games you've watched in either league.

The ML has a record number of teams in the knockouts of the HC. Something that the GP has never achieved.

TBH I see the ML getting better year in year out and the trend of CL dominance of the HC will continue. It doesn't matter that GP teams arn't in recievership... the GP is falling apart with the devaluation of sterling. The Bank of England is printing more currency which will devalue the currency even more....

It's as simple as that the fact that the GP can no longer afford the best players and more worringly for the GP they can't even hang onto their english national players even under threat of losing their english team paycheck..... so what does that say about players not getting payed a top up by the english rugby union??

Surely you're flogging adead horse at this stage

Crash · 06-03-2009 05:27PM

escobar wrote: »

You are being quite patriotic which is fine but to suggest that only 4 teams in the ML would make it in the GP is only an opinion and is again subjective and not based in fact.

You do know he's not English right?

06-03-2009 05:37PM

toomevara wrote: »

Spot on, Bath V Gloucester, LI V Leicester and Saracens/Sale were all cracking games of rugby..the first two in particular were two of the best games I've seen in any competition club, or international, all season. And that from a weekend where teams are allegedly shorn of their international stars.What does that say about the strength in depth and the quality of your average GP outfit?

Not much,if two teams are both playing reserve teams then the result will still be a good game,it would be different if one team had their full team and none of those teams are filled with a huge amount of stars that are missing for the 6 nations.

You just have to look at the Leinster team tonight to see real strength in depth.

I can understand you defending it,but to say its far superior is laughable.

sock puppet · 06-03-2009 05:42PM

Nehemiah Poor Compass wrote: »

Not much,if two teams are both playing reserve teams then the result will still be a good game,it would be different if one team had their full team and none of those teams are filled with a huge amount of stars that are missing for the 6 nations.

You just have to look at the Leinster team tonight to see real strength in depth.

I can understand you defending it,but to say its far superior is laughable.

To be fair the last round of ML games were all crap.

06-03-2009 05:59PM

sock puppet wrote: »

To be fair the last round of ML games were all crap.

well the weakest team in the magners are the Dragons and Connacht,Glasgow.They are probably slightly weaker than the average low table GP club.

Edinburgh,Ulster,Scarlets are all mid table and probably have slightly stronger teams than mid table prem.

Leinster,Munster,Ospreys,Cardiff all have stronger teams than their top GP counterparts imo.

Look at sale as an example,came to munster and got thrashed.They were one of the best teams in the prem

Stev_o · 06-03-2009 06:54PM

Name some of the classic ML matches from about 2 years ago till now. There is many no love lost battering ram matches which are good but lack that special edge to them. The best match iv ever seen is the derby game between Edinburgh and Glasgow at Murrayfield last year, it was a beacon of how derby's should be but alas most turn into a competition of who can beat seven shades of sh*t it the other team the fastest.

ML or GP

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