Hysterical but appropriate reaction - Emergency Budget coming very soon

quad_red

The Government could barely concoct a plan to cut two billion.

Four billion, eight billion, sixteen billion....

Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here...

Duiske

nouggatti wrote: »

I am when my income is decreased by whatever it will be decreased by, inflation is decreasingso the cost of living is reduced, why shouldn't the elderly/disabled/unemployed face the same cost of living adjustment as I will?

You are talking about what WILL happen. I was referring to what DID happen in the last budget.
And for what its worth, i agree with you that everyone should take the pain in this "emergency" budget. Whatever the increase in the lower rate of tax is, then SW recipients should take a pro rata decrease in payments.

K-9

nouggatti wrote: »

Tbh, you need to go back to about 1997 imo to get a decent idea.

I'd go more 01/02, pre Property Bubble.

nouggatti wrote:

Income tax then hit 46% pretty low down on the scale, possibly once you earned above about €20k

I'd say it was higher than that in Euros, but take your point. However our problem wasn't so much tax rates then, it was when you started paying 46%. €34,000 is a fair amount to start paying higher rate tax. €18,000 isn't for paying Zero tax, compare to the UK and other countries.

nouggatti wrote:

I reckon the following will come in:

1. Higher rate relief on pensions to go
2. 10% rate for lower paid to be introduced
3. PRSI Ceiling to be abolished.
4. 2% levy to be introduced for anyone over approx. 60k
5. Carbon tax to be introduced
6. Rates to be introduced for all homes.
7. Tax on all second homes.
8. Higher rate of tax to be increased to min. 45% once earning above average industrial wage.

1. Completely agreed and in fairness, this was coming in anyway, eventually.
2. What 10% rate.
3. Agreed, though I'd say below €210, which is the UB rate, no PRSI. Also abolish the rate going from 6% to 2% after €54 odd K.
4. Sorted out by 3.
5. YEP and water rates, populist nonsense no water rates is.
6. YEP, though based on property valuation WHEN you bought, with exceptions. If you were stupid enough to buy a €1 million house pay up. Also tax on size. Nobody needs a 3,000 sq, ft. bungalow in the country.
7. Already in, but could be improved.
8. Agreed. Enough of this over €100,000 populist crap.

Duiske wrote: »

Was the increase not €6 ? And then take into account that the rent allowance was cut by €5. This was not even mentioned in the budget, but sneaked in a few weeks later. Protecting the less well off my ass !!

Bur Rents have decreased and will continue too.

Alessandra wrote: »

Ya but in fairness I wouldn't mind paying 50% tax if I could get decent healthcare in return. France pays this rate of tax and then get free health care! If we get sick God forbid that's 60eu downt the drain, not to mention prescriptions. We don't get much back for what we put in and now we'll be giving even more and getting even less!!!!!!

Unfortunately, we missed the boat. When the tax reductions were brought in and people had extra money in their pockets, then was the time to protest, "No to money in my pocket, pay more tax to have a better Health system".

Now, it will go to reduce borrowings.

nouggatti wrote: »

I am when my income is decreased by whatever it will be decreased by, inflation is decreasingso the cost of living is reduced, why shouldn't the elderly/disabled/unemployed face the same cost of living adjustment as I will?

YEP, No mortgage to pay etc. etc.

IvaBigWun

Redpunto wrote: »

na na ne na na ...................... i've got my fingers in my ears.................................i cant hear you.......................................

Fail.

Abigayle does it so much better.

Samson1

"Higher rate is pretty certain but I don't know if the band will be lowered by a lot. Lower earners spend most of their income. Taxing it just sucks it out of the system, killing activity in the economy. Higher earners have money to save, which is exactly what they are doing now out of fear. This can be taxed at a higher rate without effecting spending in the economy. Much more effective."

Well said BendiBus and getting back to the thread title - Hysterical Over Reaction - Emergency Budget ....

Too much time has been spent dwelling on how we got into this mess and very little on how its being made 40 times worse now.

Is it any surprise that after Jan / Febr 2009 that figures project we will be €2 billion worse this year - for one simple reason - Loss of Confidence.

We were over reliant on selling each other houses; buying at crazy prices; crazy lending etc - the very minute the carousel slowed everyone got scread = loss of confidence.

For 4 months+ the National broadcaster (National !!) has been the main cheerleader for a recession - they can no longer wait to report on things getting worse - they now want to PREDICT that everything will = loss of confidence.

For 2 months the media urged Government on to cut Public Service wages, Government then prevaricated for 6 weeks on what they would do, & regardless of where you stand on this - this is 350,000 workers - add their families - only a lunatic would think spending would not go down in Jan / Feb - did they think this 700,000+ people would go crazy spending in January / February?? Of course receipts are down = loss of confidence.

We have watched for 6 months the whole fabric of Irish banks unravel - every type of blatant corruption & rewarded & allowed it 'only 2 million this year ...' - a regulator that knew nothing - even what his office knew
and then we reward him with 200k extra to make a 600k lump sum .. ah go on take another 200 k - for what to keep quiet?? = loss of confidence.

And now we have another Hysterical over-reaction - take another 2 billion out of people's pockets - who are already hard-pressed. That will really get the tills ringing again. And don't be surprised if the measures bring in LESS revenue rather than more.

What everyone needs now, is confidence - hope - a belief that things get better. Obama-like thinking - put money into the economy, generate spending. Keep shops open, buisnesses alive and people at work. Instead of pouring money into banks to pay down the debts of those who have destroyed our economy = Confidence.

And regrettably I must say - a General Election where we all have a say in selecting where we go from here - a fresh start = Confidence.

IvaBigWun

Samson1 wrote: »

And regrettably I must say - a General Election where we all have a say in selecting where we go from here - a fresh start = Confidence.

And put in who exactly? A coalition of Labour, Fine Gael and Sinn fooking Fein?

This is Bertie and Harney's mess. Harney should have been chased off with a large gun a long time ago. Ahearn had to sense to run first.

Samson1

IvaBigWun wrote: »

And put in who exactly? A coalition of Labour, Fine Gael and Sinn fooking Fein? quote]

Yes, as I say regrettably. A Labour led government, Lb / FG, because thats what it will be. They are the only ones people have any faith in any more - we need something new & more than anything we need - confidence.

K-9

Samson1 wrote: »

Is it any surprise that after Jan / Febr 2009 that figures project we will be €2 billion worse this year - for one simple reason - Loss of Confidence.

We were over reliant on selling each other houses; buying at crazy prices; crazy lending etc - the very minute the carousel slowed everyone got scread = loss of confidence.

For 4 months+ the National broadcaster (National !!) has been the main cheerleader for a recession - they can no longer wait to report on things getting worse - they now want to PREDICT that everything will = loss of confidence.

For 2 months the media urged Government on to cut Public Service wages, Government then prevaricated for 6 weeks on what they would do, & regardless of where you stand on this - this is 350,000 workers - add their families - only a lunatic would think spending would not go down in Jan / Feb - did they think this 700,000+ people would go crazy spending in January / February?? Of course receipts are down = loss of confidence.

This isn't a 2001 Recession were Bush and Clinton can say, spend and borrow our way out.

People are not spending because Unemployment has doubled, wages are being cut and there is no job security.

Confidence will not get us out of this.

ronano

amacachi wrote: »

I just hope they wait til the end of July so I've paid all my loans back:pac:

Someone on Boards recently said that Ireland built it's economy by selling houses to each other over the last number of years and I couldn't put it better than that. Should be fun seeing the government trying to think of a different tactic to sort things out.

i'm waiting for the auld pig to say 'sell bigger houses to each other'

i'll crush my face with the facepalm

OPENROAD

Samson1 wrote: »

IvaBigWun wrote: »

And put in who exactly? A coalition of Labour, Fine Gael and Sinn fooking Fein? quote]

Yes, as I say regrettably. A Labour led government, Lb / FG, because thats what it will be. They are the only ones people have any faith in any more - we need something new & more than anything we need - confidence.

But Labour are centre left and FG are centre right, are they not, can they work together?

Samson1

OPENROAD wrote: »

Samson1 wrote: »

But Labour are centre left and FG are centre right, are they not, can they work together?

OPENROAD wrote: »

Samson1 wrote: »

Yes they can. And as long as its Labour led they will do - we dont have any other options. And to K-9 "Confidence wont get us out of this" - Do you think the way we are going will ???

K-9

Samson1 wrote: »

Yes they can. And as long as its Labour led they will do - we dont have any other options.

Depends what you want out of Labour.

Samson1 wrote:

And to K-9 "Confidence wont get us out of this" - Do you think the way we are going will ???

Realism. OK, We get confidence, what does that mean specifically?

Spend, spend, spend from money that is declining?

The UK dropped VAT Rates, FAILED. People aren't going to spend their way out of this. This is a depression, not a recession.

keefg

Salary cap of 25k for every single politician/TD for the next few years.

Four weeks holiday per year for all members of the Dail (the feckers can work for the rest of the year like everyone else).

No more fat expense accounts.

No more 1st class foreign trips or cushy helicopter rides.

Replace all expensive government vehicles with small diesel engined cars.

That would do for a start - lead by example! I am sick of those feckers on telly telling us that we all have to tighten our belts, take the pain together etc etc while they are all living like it's 2004 :mad:

kincsem

1. Benchmarking should cut a bit off the public sector pay bill, or was benchmarking only a joke.
2. Introduce Dail clocking-in and pay TDs by the hour worked.
3. How about some statistics on the public service? How much does each department cost per public sector employee.
4. How many semi-states does each department control? Same stats for them.
5. Then get the figures for other European Union countries and compare.

The government is running a business. How about some numbers?

Chinese proverb "everything is learned by comparison".

zootroid

Can someone explain to me why the title of this thread is hysterical over-reaction?

The country's finances are in a state, something needs to be done to get them back on track. Hardly an over-reaction.

Darragh29

zootroid wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why the title of this thread is hysterical over-reaction?

The country's finances are in a state, something needs to be done to get them back on track. Hardly an over-reaction.

You are talking out of your ar*se. Did you not hear Mary Coughlan telling you at the start of the week that the public finances are in contol??? :D:D ;);)

ongarite

Unemployment figures out today, expected to show another massive increase with total unemployeed exceeding 350,000.

Then to show to madness of it all, public sector employment increased by 10,000 in the year to November 2008 while private sector employment decreased by nearly 100,000.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0304/breaking6.htm

Caoimhín

ongarite wrote: »

Une
Then to show to madness of it all, public sector employment increased by 10,000 in the year to November 2008

Jesus wept, we have a shower of shaved monkeys in charge. It is truly time to take to the hills with a gun and food rations.

gurramok

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0304/breaking28.htm

354,000 on Live Regsiter in Feb. Cowen warns it could reach 450,000 by end of year. You can bet the vast majority of those unfortunates are from the private sector.

The number of people signing on for jobseekers' payments hit a new record high of 354,400 in February, the Taoiseach Brian Cowen told the Dail today.

galah

what I still don't understand is - where did all the surplus from the Tiger years go? Surely someone would have thought about it way back, and thought to put some money away for a rainy day?

Also, they were saying that Ireland is one of the lowest income tax countries in Europe, most other countries have higer taxes - which is true - but for those higher taxes, I actually get a proper SERVICE from the government - for example, proper, free healthcare in Germany, proper support if I am unemployed r in need of social welfare.

Raising the taxes (by comparing us to other countries) but not providing the safety net that other countries have is pretty unfair and does not wash, at least not with me.

It will be interesting times ahead.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

galah wrote: »

It will be interesting times ahead.

Interesting choice of words there... I think it will be interesting for the wealthy. For the rest of us it will be extremely hard, scary, horrible even?

IvaBigWun

galah wrote: »

what I still don't understand is - where did all the surplus from the Tiger years go?

In. Her. Belly.

Peteee

galah wrote: »

what I still don't understand is - where did all the surplus from the Tiger years go? Surely someone would have thought about it way back, and thought to put some money away for a rainy day?

Also, they were saying that Ireland is one of the lowest income tax countries in Europe, most other countries have higer taxes

Thats the very thing, when we were rolling in money the government lowered taxes and ran a balanced budget (Or minor deficits or surpluses) to keep the electorate appeased, when it should have been raising taxes to save for the rainy day and take money out of an overheating economy.

To get money in its coffers it had money from stamp duty etc, which is completely unsustainable, as has been proven by the collapse in the government tax take, along with a massive degradation in VAT (Because people are buying less, cant buy more cos they are unemployed) and income tax receipts (People taking pay cuts, being unemployed)

This isn't a 2001 Recession were Bush and Clinton can say, spend and borrow our way out.

Interestingly enough this was what sowed the seeds for this recession. The central banks slashed interest rates to stimulate the economy (When in reality the economy bar IT/Tech was fine). With the IT Stock market bubble popped, people needed somewhere else to invest their money.

Hey, house prices always go up don't they!

And thus the sham economy of the last 8 years was born, where people got rich buy selling houses to one another and producing nothing of value.

jester77

galah wrote: »

Also, they were saying that Ireland is one of the lowest income tax countries in Europe, most other countries have higer taxes - which is true - but for those higher taxes, I actually get a proper SERVICE from the government - for example, proper, free healthcare in Germany, proper support if I am unemployed r in need of social welfare.

Raising the taxes (by comparing us to other countries) but not providing the safety net that other countries have is pretty unfair and does not wash, at least not with me.

It will be interesting times ahead.

Healthcare is not free in Germany. Everyone has to pay into the system, there is no opt out. 15.2% of your salary goes on just healthcare alone before other deductions are taken.

Terry

zootroid wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why the title of this thread is hysterical over-reaction?

The country's finances are in a state, something needs to be done to get them back on track. Hardly an over-reaction.

Date/Time 	Action 	Moderator
19:13, 3rd Mar 2009	Thread title (original 'Prepare for the pain - Emergency Budget coming very soon') changed	Terry

Seemed apt considering there has been no official word from the government about an emergency budget.
I'll happily change it back and apologise if this happens.

Kev_ps3

galah wrote: »

what I still don't understand is - where did all the surplus from the Tiger years go? Surely someone would have thought about it way back, and thought to put some money away for a rainy day?

It all went to a tiny minority of business men who are probably in a different country now:pac:

galah

jester77 wrote: »

Healthcare is not free in Germany. Everyone has to pay into the system, there is no opt out. 15.2% of your salary goes on just healthcare alone before other deductions are taken.

yes, I know that - but that's what I mean - the taxes and deductions are higher, but I get healthcare out of that for which I do not have to pay at point of delivery (free was a poor choice of words, I do admit). While here, they will just raise the taxes without making any changes to the services at all.

(that's just what I'm trying to say - they compare the low-tax economy with higher tax economies while conveniently forgetting that for paying higher taxes, people actually get better services - look at Scandinavia, for example.)

galah

Reyansh Wide Highway wrote: »

Interesting choice of words there... I think it will be interesting for the wealthy. For the rest of us it will be extremely hard, scary, horrible even?

Well, we don't have kids, no mortgage, no debt, nothing (apart from two cats, which, if the worst comes to the worst, we could always eat ;-)) and it has just been announced that at least my job is safe (for now) - so for us, it will only be 'interesting' - I hope...

jester77

galah wrote: »

yes, I know that - but that's what I mean - the taxes and deductions are higher, but I get healthcare out of that for which I do not have to pay at point of delivery (free was a poor choice of words, I do admit). While here, they will just raise the taxes without making any changes to the services at all.

(that's just what I'm trying to say - they compare the low-tax economy with higher tax economies while conveniently forgetting that for paying higher taxes, people actually get better services - look at Scandinavia, for example.)

Ah, now I get you

True, but it hurts when you see the size of what is taken out of your wage each month, for the same salary in Ireland I would nearly have an extra €900 in my pocket every month. But I guess that is why Ireland is in the mess it is!

galah

yes, it's pretty bad - but even with the lower wages and higher deductions, you do get a pretty good standard of living in Germany - for everyone, not just the richer people.

Cost of living is a lot cheaper, healthcare is superb, and even social benefits are great. And I won't even mention pretty much free childcare, cheap higher education, environmental awareness, good infrastructure, proper public transport - you get the picture.

Crap - why am I here again? Ah yes, because of that Irish guy I 'stole' from the pool of eligible Irish bachelors. I also took most of your sandwiches, but, I'd like to emphasise, NOT one your jobs. Just in case the 'foreigners go home' crowd reads this thread.