Impressive - Martin Fagan

speedster1993

robinph wrote: »

Well "illegal" is over stating it, there isn't any act of a national parliament to make the use of drugs in sport illegal.

Yes, there is: Italy, Belgium, Sweden, France.

Enduro

speedster1993 wrote: »

Yes, there is: Italy, Belgium, Sweden, France.

It would be great if it was the case here (for obvious reasons). It would have been better again if Martin Fagin could have been prosecuted under such a law. Rather than hearing about his depression via Ian O'Riordan's non-investigative puff pieces, his legal team would have been afforded the opportunity to argue a defensive of diminished responsibility in court. It's relevance would be firmly established one way or the other in such circumstances.

TFBubendorfer

speedster1993 wrote: »

Yes, there is: Italy, Belgium, Sweden, France.

.. and a few more. It's a growing trend, so maybe it will catch on in Ireland as well eventually.

Mind, if an athlete dopes in the states and competes in the states, it might not be possible to prosecute him or her over here.

dublin runner

Really interesting thread.

A two year ban vs a lifetime ban has big implications for fellow athletes. For example, Fagan is running this years Dublin Marathon (by all accounts). If I were an Irish athlete at the elite end I would not be happy. Fagan has the capability of running 2.12 or thereabouts. This would place would have placed him 1st in last years marathon and thereby knocking every other athlete down a place and down a considerable amount of prize money. This does not sit well with me personally.

mithril

T runner wrote: »

Where's the loophole? He got two years. He would have got one year if he had been upfront about his source, he wasn't as he unsubstantially claimed he bought it off the internet. That's why he got 2 not 1.

T runner wrote:

My own view would be a lifetime ban for any athlete that does not completely spill the beans. Two years otherwise. This immediately changes the dynamic and risk of drug taking for the user, and for the person/coach/organization supplying it, if any.

So your personal opinion is that Fagan should have got a life ban for concealing his drug source?

rom

Elite sports is excel at all costs and there is a thin line between what is legal and illegal. There is maybe 5 people on this forum and none of them frequent posters who fall into that category. We have a great race walker like Rob Heffernan that won't tell anyone what his drinks are and for good reasons it gives him the edge.

Elite athletes do everything deliberately and if they end up taking EPO then its a choice they take and it is not some impulse buy. From how they take their coffee to what time they eat every meal an when they take a sleep etc. If they make a choice to change that then its not an impulse and it is probably the most thought out decision as possible. If his depression was a valid excuse then he would not be in the correct mindset to return where he is now. Would be interesting to see what helped him though all of this as maybe he could bottle it.

According to reports LA was depressed also due to his cancer.

mithril

rom wrote: »

Elite sports is excel at all costs and there is a thin line between what is legal and illegal. There is maybe 5 people on this forum and none of them frequent posters who fall into that category. We have a great race walker like Rob Heffernan that won't tell anyone what his drinks are and for good reasons it gives him the edge.

Elite athletes do everything deliberately and if they end up taking EPO then its a choice they take and it is not some impulse buy. From how they take their coffee to what time they eat every meal an when they take a sleep etc. If they make a choice to change that then its not an impulse and it is probably the most thought out decision as possible. If his depression was a valid excuse then he would not be in the correct mindset to return where he is now. Would be interesting to see what helped him though all of this as maybe he could bottle it.

According to reports LA was depressed also due to his cancer.

I have difficulty with the explanation of taking EPO as an act of impulsive self-harm. However, it’s more credible if the EPO was readily available in the immediate environment, which I believe to be the case.

If the trigger for the depression was the need to live a lie, and betray his ideals and values, it would have been a relief to be found out, and the underlying cause of the depression would be removed. I believe what he is saying on this point

PVincent

http://backtomybest.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/the-one-i-didnt-want-to-write.html. An interesting read about a hockey player trying to cope with not achieving her goals. Whilst not the same as Fagan's , there is an interesting bit about coping with the disappointment etc , which is part of the Fagan's story

drquirky

PVincent wrote: »

http://backtomybest.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/the-one-i-didnt-want-to-write.html. An interesting read about a hockey player trying to cope with not achieving her goals. Whilst not the same as Fagan's , there is an interesting bit about coping with the disappointment etc , which is part of the Fagan's story

FYI its called Field Hockey- Hockey is played on ice w/ skates:D:D:D

PVincent

In Ireland we just call it Hockey. I played it for many years at a high level , coached it and am still involved in the game. It's a great article in fairness. Another great article in the Irish Times today about a hockey player who lost a leg thro a rare disease but still plays. And don't forget Jill Hodgins who won Seville marathon a few yrs ago was a FIELD hockey international. ( watch her in cork next weekend)

rom

The only drug busts for EPO according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics have only been for East African and Russia since 2008/09/10.

Depression makes people do things on impulse. They don't mail order something, wait a week or more for it to arrive and then act. I am sorry but its premeditated.

mithril

rom wrote: »

Depression makes people do things on impulse. They don't mail order something, wait a week or more for it to arrive and then act. I am sorry but its premeditated.

Missed my point I think?
I agree with you that EPO is difficult to obtain particularly for a penniless person who can't afford to see a doctor. David Walsh who knows more than most about EPO is very convincing on this point.

I don't believe Martin Fagan ordered EPO via mail order or on the web. It was already accessible in the environment around him and he got an extension of the ban for not revealing his source.

rom

mithril wrote: »

Missed my point I think?
I agree with you that EPO is difficult to obtain particularly for a penniless person who can't afford to see a doctor. David Walsh who knows more than most about EPO is very convincing on this point.

I don't believe Martin Fagan ordered EPO via mail order or on the web. It was already accessible in the environment around him and he got an extension of the ban for not revealing his source.

Personally I do as I don't think he would have been caught if he actually had help.

Anyone who thinks that athletics is cleaner than cycling is in for a shock.

http://bit.ly/1mkhdPF

We are in the age of biological passports (thank god) for a reason.

Its naive to request the "source". as it probably ends in a .com

mithril

rom wrote: »

It's naive to request the "source". as it probably ends in a .com

I doubt there would have been an expanded sanction if he had a credit card statement leading back to a ".com.". I realize that there are more sophisticated ways of concealing a transaction, but I doubt MF on his own would have used them.

It would have been extraordinary bad luck to fail a drug test after a single use of EPO, (it can be undetectable next morning if used according to best cheating practise),

There is a point in any professional athlete's career when they have to call a stop and transition to a more normal existence. I think it would have been better for everyone, including MF, if he called time after the doping incident and found a job or training course rather than trying to make it again as a professional athlete when what he achieves subsequently will always be have an asterisk against it, and he still cannot provide an honest account of what happened. No-one would seriously have a problem with him resuming recreational running.

Clearlier

rom wrote: »

Elite sports is excel at all costs and there is a thin line between what is legal and illegal. There is maybe 5 people on this forum and none of them frequent posters who fall into that category. We have a great race walker like Rob Heffernan that won't tell anyone what his drinks are and for good reasons it gives him the edge.

Elite athletes do everything deliberately and if they end up taking EPO then its a choice they take and it is not some impulse buy. From how they take their coffee to what time they eat every meal an when they take a sleep etc. If they make a choice to change that then its not an impulse and it is probably the most thought out decision as possible. If his depression was a valid excuse then he would not be in the correct mindset to return where he is now. Would be interesting to see what helped him though all of this as maybe he could bottle it.

According to reports LA was depressed also due to his cancer.

First I've heard mention of LA being depressed. In any case he was using drugs before he got cancer. Some even wonder if it contributed to its rapid spread. Given what we know LA and MF are chalk and cheese. We don't know the extent of MF's drug taking but there's no reason to believe that he coerced others into taking them.

I'd be cautious about characterising depression in the way that some posters have. MF's explanation as to the reason for taking drugs and the timelines around it are plausible. Depression doesn't necessarily lead to impulsive decision making and it certainly doesn't preclude bad decision making over a long period of time.

I'd also be wary of assuming that all elite athletes lead lives of monastic dedication and discipline. Of course many do but not all. Bolt is an example that jumps to mind.

Clearlier

rom wrote: »

Elite sports is excel at all costs and there is a thin line between what is legal and illegal. There is maybe 5 people on this forum and none of them frequent posters who fall into that category. We have a great race walker like Rob Heffernan that won't tell anyone what his drinks are and for good reasons it gives him the edge.

Elite athletes do everything deliberately and if they end up taking EPO then its a choice they take and it is not some impulse buy. From how they take their coffee to what time they eat every meal an when they take a sleep etc. If they make a choice to change that then its not an impulse and it is probably the most thought out decision as possible. If his depression was a valid excuse then he would not be in the correct mindset to return where he is now. Would be interesting to see what helped him though all of this as maybe he could bottle it.

According to reports LA was depressed also due to his cancer.

First I've heard mention of LA being depressed. In any case he was using drugs before he got cancer. Some even wonder if it contributed to its rapid spread. Given what we know LA and MF are chalk and cheese. We don't know the extent of MF's drug taking but there's no reason to believe that he coerced others into taking them.

I'd be cautious about characterising depression in the way that some posters have. MF's explanation as to the reason for taking drugs and the timelines around it are plausible. Depression doesn't necessarily lead to impulsive decision making and it certainly doesn't preclude bad decision making over a long period of time.

I'd also be wary of assuming that all elite athletes lead lives of monastic dedication and discipline. Of course many do but not all. Bolt is an example that jumps to mind.

T runner

mithril wrote: »

So your personal opinion is that Fagan should have got a life ban for concealing his drug source?

No. Fagan should have got two years. That's the official ban for failing a drugs test and not fully revealing your source.

I personally think that the ban should be changed to for life if an athlete does not reveal his source. (This includes can not. If you don't know who youre getting you're drugs from its a lifetime ban)

In Fagan's case, I think if a life time ban was on the cards he would have revealed his source most definitely. That would have meant his source is flushed out and (assuming he has depression) it means he has come clean completely and can truly make a fresh start.

That's just one case, in general with this change: many PED suppliers, team doctors, coaches who use drugs are now vulnerable. The sponsors who put pressure on for results (and all know that's drugs are used) are impossible to catch.
I'm guessing that they are the ones ultimately responsible for sabotaging drug laws into the inadequacy realm.

To get to the corporations behind the culture: Endorsement contracts for advertising are banned, and professional contracts can NOT have performance/appearance related clauses.

The talk of making it illegal is interesting. It might work.
Projecting Fagan into some kind of courtroom based on it is not relevant. If it was illegal to do what he did, he may not have done it. That's good.
Remember the pitfalls though:

The Italian agency set up to drug control in Italian cycling was actually the body who administered EPO to Italian cyclists in such a way to keep them under legal Hematocrit levels in the blood. i.e they were drug dealers and administerers.

Also remember that if its a white collar type law: 4 people have been charged (none jailed) since the companies (white collar) Act here a decade ago. 11,000 were jailed for non-payment of fines last year.

But if you want the big ads, the big Olympics, the big stars, the major marathons...if you want all that ....along with that wish comes endemic PED use in Elite athletics/running.