Now they want to take away our minimum wage

Red Sleeping Beauty · 10-02-2009 2:17pm #1

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0210/nera.html

One of these Fianna Fail wallys has more or less just suggested that the minimum wage be reduced. Newstalk has ran with the story and they're lovin it - they had one of these bloody "experts" on and was saying how even those getting the most paltry pitiful (minimum) wage should be taking a hit.
They also had some knob (the filter would've replaced the word I'd like to use with ****) from the Green sub Fianna Fail party on and she was hmming and ahhing her way through and just repeating the same political drivel/rhetoric we've heard for too long.

Eoin · 10-02-2009 2:25pm

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

- they had one of these bloody "experts" on and was saying how even those getting the most paltry pitiful (minimum) wage should be taking a hit.

Out of interest, how does ours compare to all other EU countries?

ScumLord · 10-02-2009 2:30pm

I'd rather see the government taking €1000 off a rich guy than 10c off a poor one.

Professey Chin · 10-02-2009 2:31pm

eoin wrote: »

Out of interest, how does ours compare to all other EU countries?

2nd highest. Whats our cost of living in comparison?

techdiver · 10-02-2009 2:32pm

eoin wrote: »

Out of interest, how does ours compare to all other EU countries?

We have the second highest minimum wage in Europe behind Luxembourg.

There is an argument that a high minimum wage can stifle employment levels as it leaves some companies unable to afford extra staff.

Corruptedmorals · 10-02-2009 2:34pm

Our minimum wage can hardly be described as pitiful. Second only to France and miles ahead of the ridiculous UK one. That said, cost of living is insane so it should really remain at the same €8.65 and not drop. I for one an glad I'm on a little bit more than it and it can't be taken away from me now..

Smart Bug · 10-02-2009 2:37pm

It actually makes sense, in a clinical fashion. Reducing the cots of wages for a business, it being the major cost associated with most businesses, should in theory lead to a reduction in the cost of living.

However, this being Ireland, the greed of said businesses will probably lead to rampant profiteering and a rise in the general cost of living. Add to that the inevitable fact that the government will make a complete fuck of any measures they introduce.

The_Minister · 10-02-2009 2:39pm

the problem is that the higher the wage is that an employer has to pay, the less worth his while it is (Don't forget to add on PRSI too). Having a very high minimum wage reduces the number of jobs in the economy, and while we had full employment that didn't matter, but now we need people in work ASAP.

Tbh, I'm not sure it would work with the economy in such tatters, but we need people back at work, and creating jobs quickly is necessary.

The_Minister · 10-02-2009 2:41pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd rather see the government taking €1000 off a rich guy than 10c off a poor one.

I don't think you fully understand why this is being tossed out there.
We are nearly bankrupt, and our social welfare bill is rocketing, we need people back to work, and off the State's teat. Reducing the minimum wage is a quick way to create a load of new jobs, by making it cheaper to employ people.

Eoin · 10-02-2009 2:46pm

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

2nd highest. Whats our cost of living in comparison?

I imagine that's also way up there. I'd also say the cost of living is currently particularly high for all those people who have been let go because companies couldn't afford / wouldn't pay the minimum wages.

Smart Bug · 10-02-2009 2:47pm

The_Minister wrote: »

I don't think you fully understand why this is being tossed out there.
We are nearly bankrupt, and our social welfare bill is rocketing, we need people back to work, and off the State's teat. Reducing the minimum wage is a quick way to create a load of new jobs, by making it cheaper to employ people.

Exactly.

Our high minimum wage has undeniably led to an increase in our cost of living. However, lowering the minimum wage alone will not rejuvinate our economy or even halt it's decline. Action needs to be taken on businesses who charge exorbitant prices for their goods and services. I think the Competition Authority recently stated that it would look into capping prices in a number of sectors (groceries, clothes)?

Fran79 · 10-02-2009 2:49pm

Whta kind of reduction in the minimum wage coule we be looking at? €1 more or less?

I agree with the previous poster re min wage in UK - you cant live on it (I know I'm British, moved over here last year). Even if there was a cut to say €7 it would still leave enough to live on and be higher in comparison to the UK (even taking into account the higher cost of living here).

Fran

(Still in shock at the high level of min wage, dole and state pension here!)

Red Sleeping Beauty · 10-02-2009 2:57pm

The_Minister wrote: »

the problem is that the higher the wage is that an employer has to pay, the less worth his while it is (Don't forget to add on PRSI too). Having a very high minimum wage reduces the number of jobs in the economy, and while we had full employment that didn't matter, but now we need people in work ASAP.

Tbh, I'm not sure it would work with the economy in such tatters, but we need people back at work, and creating jobs quickly is necessary.

Grand so, people will be better off staying on the dole and then once they successfully kick people off of that life support they can get the scum back into nothing jobs they are paid peanuts for so that order can be restored...

The_Minister · 10-02-2009 3:02pm

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Grand so, people will be better off staying on the dole and then once they successful kick people off of that life support they can get the scum back into nothing jobs they are paid peanuts for so that order can be restored...

"Nothing jobs"?
Grow up and don't be such a snob.
Those jobs have to be done, and we need them for Irish people this time around.

Otherwise...exactly.

This isn't nice.
This isn't pleasant.
But sometimes in life the choice is between the lesser of two evils, and when faced with a temporary reduction in the minimum wage, and the complete collapse of Ireland, I know my choice.

Lizzykins · 10-02-2009 3:03pm

Funny how these same employers wouldn't let their nearest and dearest work for the minimum wage. What they'd like is for the rest of us is to work for a bowl of rice a day and be bloody grateful for it.

ScumLord · 10-02-2009 3:11pm

The_Minister wrote: »

I don't think you fully understand why this is being tossed out there.
We are nearly bankrupt, and our social welfare bill is rocketing, we need people back to work, and off the State's teat. Reducing the minimum wage is a quick way to create a load of new jobs, by making it cheaper to employ people.

That's true but that fact is it's the average person that's paying for the mistakes of government and banks. If we really need to save money there's millions floating around the health service and government doing nothing but making the top end employees get fat.

What they really should be doing is bringing proper, modern business practices into these organisations and not making them top heavy and useless with managment.

Why should ordinary people continue to pay for the fat cats mistakes. Why the hell do we let them get away with abusing the system like this?

If it was necessary to cut wages then fine but there's a hell of allot of real problems they could address first before taking another small chunk off the poorest people.

Boskowski · 10-02-2009 3:11pm

Chicken & Egg problem.

One could argue that the high minimum wage contributes to the high cost of living rather than being a symptom of it. Hard to tell, bit of both I guess.

One obvious problem with lowering the minimum wage is that the dole competes even more so with minimum wage jobs. Already people are wondering are you better off on the dole rather than working for the minimum wage. That's not going to get better, unless....we also reduce the dole payments.

Jehova!

Frisbee · 10-02-2009 3:14pm

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

One of these Fianna Fail

I see what you did there

Fat_Fingers · 10-02-2009 3:18pm

No offense to anyone but i find it scary how huge number of people buried their heads in the sand over the situation we are in.

We are in a freefall. The Republic is borrowing at the rate of €55m euros per day. Yes, that means to run the state we are paying extra 55 million euros per day that we don't have. With stats of 350 new unemployed per day this borrowing will grow even higher. There is no easy options left. "yes something needs to be done but not of my back" attitude will not do anymore. Everyone will have to pay for the mess that bankers, developers, builders, and speculators got us into.

RasTa · 10-02-2009 3:21pm

It is time for the dole que to take a 10% cut. Although I do feel sorry for the people who have a mortgage who are now on it

spank_inferno · 10-02-2009 3:23pm

Before minimum wage changes can be even considered one has to look at
a few things... eg: Who earns it? & Who pays it?

Most of miniumum wage earners are generaly in that position
because of their limited oppertunities due to poor education or
previous life problems like crime etc.
These people are also the most likely to give up on it all and go on
social welfare.

Most of us have probably worked for minium wage at some point.
Many employers cant afford otherwise because their margin is slim.
But can the same be said for them all? eg: Restaraunts & supermarkets.

Consider this.
Drop minium wage to €8
Work a 40hr week & pay your modest prsi tax deduction.
try to pay your rent/utilities.
You get home and the government have posted you your annual
"TV tax" for €160
You become ill and have to go to the doctor.... etc.

If miniumum wages fall, we all loose.
If we fail to incentivise those with poor oppertunities as it is to work
Who will feed/cloth/house them??
And where will this money come from?

The poorest in society didnt cause the recession, they dont deserve
and can ill afford the pain of making the very work they do a waste
of their time

deadhead13 · 10-02-2009 3:26pm

Only 4.5% of the irish workforce is on mimimum wage. I can't see how a reduction will greatly stimulate the economy. Leave them alone.

NewApproach · 10-02-2009 3:28pm

Reducing the minimum wage will allow more people employment. So to be honest it makes sense at the minute.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 10-02-2009 3:28pm

NewApproach wrote: »

Reducing the minimum wage will allow more people employment. So to be honest it makes sense at the minute.

If this were to happen it would be great, but it is a theory in a very unrealistic scenario. It simply will NOT work.

Think employers will use the extra money to hire extra staff? No, they won't. They will take this reduced wage and trod on with the staff they have. It should create extra jobs, but I doubt it will create a lot. Very few I believe.

The expense of living in Ireland is crazy, how can someone on minimum wages afford bills, rent and food if we take a large cut? Taking a smaller cut might be ok.

If you take money off the dole, ah here, impossible to argue with people who are not scrounging every copper in order to eat. 200 euro is not a lot of money to live off. Bad idea taking a cut there.

Politicians and the like should be taking huge cuts, but no talk of that yet, is there? Again, the average joe soap will the the fall for the fat cats mistakes, while our politicians and fat cat bankers sleep soundly.

gurramok · 10-02-2009 3:28pm

Yeh, if they reduce the min wage, they have to reduce the dole. One is linked to the other at the bottom of the earnings pile. No bloody point reducing the min wage if you 'earn' more on the dole than working for a living!

Red Sleeping Beauty · 10-02-2009 3:32pm

deadhead13 wrote: »

Only 4.5% of the irish workforce is on mimimum wage. I can't see how a reduction will greatly stimulate the economy. Leave them alone.

I'd say that figure is higher techincally...
That's the amount of people on the minimum yes ?
That's the minimum that says that you are

over 18,
a citizen of the state
and have at least 6months working experience

Red Sleeping Beauty · 10-02-2009 3:34pm

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

No offense to anyone but i find it scary how huge number of people buried their heads in the sand over the situation we are in.

We are in a freefall. The Republic is borrowing at the rate of €55m euros per day. Yes, that means to run the state we are paying extra 55 million euros per day that we don't have. With stats of 350 new unemployed per day this borrowing will grow even higher. There is no easy options left. "yes something needs to be done but not of my back" attitude will not do anymore. Everyone will have to pay for the mess that bankers, developers, builders, and speculators got us into.

€55m a day ?
Well, Bruce Springsteen's playing 2gigs here and he's worth about $900M - tax him $200M to enter the country.

Bono's also loaded - I'm sure his bank balance could run the country for a week and keep everyone happy for at least a short period of time as it'd be Bono scrounging and sponging and scraping to make ends meet

professore · 10-02-2009 3:37pm

Alec High Soprano wrote: »

If this were to happen it would be great, but it is a theory in a very unrealistic scenario. It simply will NOT work.

Think employers will use the extra money to hire extra staff? No, they won't. They will take this reduced wage and trod on with the staff they have. It should create extra jobs, but I doubt it will create a lot. Very few I believe.

I'm not sure about that ... if i was employing people in minimum wage style jobs I would use the minimum wage cut it to reduce my prices, therefore generating more business, allowing me to hire more staff. So prices should come down as a result, making it easier for people to live on the new minimum wage. What kills me is the big stores (Dunnes, Tesco, even Lidl and Aldi) and how they keep their prices way higher than up North. This REALLY hurts those on low wages.

Smart Bug · 10-02-2009 3:38pm

deadhead13 wrote: »

Only 4.5% of the irish workforce is on mimimum wage. I can't see how a reduction will greatly stimulate the economy. Leave them alone.

There's a much more insidious reason behind this though. If you lower the minimum wage it allows employers a far greater scope to lower wages in general.

Red Sleeping Beauty · 10-02-2009 3:41pm

professore wrote: »

What kills me is the big stores (Dunnes, Tesco, even Lidl and Aldi) and how they keep their prices way higher than up North. This REALLY hurts those on low wages.

All four of those chains that you mentioned need to be taken to task with regards their Anti-Union policy. They're scum, utter scum in my absolutely final and humble opinion.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 10-02-2009 3:45pm

NewApproach wrote: »

Reducing the minimum wage will allow more people employment. So to be honest it makes sense at the minute.

professore wrote: »

I'm not sure about that ... if i was employing people in minimum wage style jobs I would use the minimum wage cut it to reduce my prices, therefore generating more business, allowing me to hire more staff. So prices should come down as a result, making it easier for people to live on the new minimum wage. What kills me is the big stores (Dunnes, Tesco, even Lidl and Aldi) and how they keep their prices way higher than up North. This REALLY hurts those on low wages.

You can't say aldi charge above market average for their products, they won't beat tesco or some of the other big stores on everything, but they will beat them on most.

Now you say this, but are you the owner of a shop? It's an idea, but people don't run these businesses, idiots do. Look at woodies for example. They hire the bare minimum, because some retard looked at a few charts and figures and decided that woodies staff are stupid, they only stacked shelves so they only needed 2-3 staff from 9 until 6. They have the mentality that customers know what they want, they come in and get it, the staff have no input, they are not sales reps etc etc. These companies will take this pay cut and laugh, they will not pass this on to the customer, as like a lot of other companies, they will put this down as a saving, add it to profits.

I can see this generating very few jobs. I don't understand why they keep kicking the poor when they are down. Minimum wage... think of it.

10-02-2009 3:45pm

RasTa wrote: »

It is time for the dole que to take a 10% cut. Although I do feel sorry for the people who have a mortgage who are now on it

people who have mortgages are the people who've credits built up and are on the other type of dole..

the bog standard dole for wasters should be dropped by 20-30 euro at least.

Boskowski · 10-02-2009 3:45pm

Alec High Soprano wrote: »

200 euro is not a lot of money to live off. Bad idea taking a cut there.

And why should it be? You're getting it for doing nothing after all.

S.I.R · 10-02-2009 3:48pm

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0210/nera.html

One of these Fianna Fail wallys has more or less just suggested that the minimum wage be reduced. Newstalk has ran with the story and they're lovin it - they had one of these bloody "experts" on and was saying how even those getting the most paltry pitiful (minimum) wage should be taking a hit.
They also had some knob (the filter would've replaced the word I'd like to use with ****) from the Green sub Fianna Fail party on and she was hmming and ahhing her way through and just repeating the same political drivel/rhetoric we've heard for too long.

this is why we need someone exciting i power... like irelands hottest man in ireland... Baz from Rte....

if we're gonna die poor, might aswell do it lookin stylish Loike....

deadhead13 · 10-02-2009 3:51pm

realcam wrote: »

And why should it be? You're getting it for doing nothing after all.

No. You pay tax all your working life. When you are laid off you entitled to benifits. It is not for nothing.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 10-02-2009 3:52pm

realcam wrote: »

And why should it be? You're getting it for doing nothing after all.

I paid my dues, I have every right to be on social welfare. I sincerely hope you get a taste of it soon. It might wake you up.

It's a damn weak argument you have there...

ManFromAtlantis · 10-02-2009 3:52pm

min wage is too high. how can we be competitive.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 10-02-2009 3:58pm

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

min wage is too high. how can we be competitive.

Could you sustain a family, provide shelter, food and pay the bills, pay for the costs of education (free my arse), clothes and entertainment for 312 a week? Oh and whatever deductions out of that too... Wouldn't think so.

I would say most that say it should be cut are living at home with their parents or a partner, sponging of someone somewhere, don't actually know what it's like to live on such little money and still call it "life". Probably have good paying jobs, or are too young to understand. Probably never had money worries, probably don't have a clue...

traffic_cone · 10-02-2009 4:00pm

fukcing government. enough said!

Red Sleeping Beauty · 10-02-2009 4:00pm

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

min wage is too high. how can we be competitive.

Thank you for your excellent addition to this ongoing discussion

Alec High Soprano wrote: »

I would say most that say it should be cut are living at home with their parents or a partner, sponging of someone somewhere, don't actually know what it's like to live on such little money and still call it "life". Probably have good paying jobs, or are too young to understand. Probably never had money worries, probably don't have a clue...

Here here. You're not going to find anyone on the scratcher saying "way hey lets cut that pesky minimum wage , it's draggin our country into the graveyard" :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

deleriumtremens · 10-02-2009 4:03pm

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

min wage is too high. how can we be competitive.

I agree with this. Understandably a bitter pill to swallow, (I myself am on the dole), would anyone here disagree that cutting the minimum wage by a bit and also decreasing the dole to maybe 190 a week in line with this, would help the economy more than not doing it? Seriously wage costs in this country are still at the unnaturally high levels reached as a result of the unnatural growth in the boom years, surely its time for wage cost to fall a bit.

ManFromAtlantis · 10-02-2009 4:04pm

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Thank you for your excellent addition to this ongoing discussion

ongoing discussion? thought it was open and shut with my excellent addition.

Red Sleeping Beauty · 10-02-2009 4:05pm

deleriumtremens wrote: »

I agree with this. Understandably a bitter pill to swallow, (I myself am on the dole), would anyone here disagree that cutting the minimum wage by a bit and also decreasing the dole to maybe 190 a week in line with this, would help the economy more than not doing it? Seriously wage costs in this country are still at the unnaturally high levels reached as a result of the unnatural growth in the boom years, surely its time for wage cost to fall a bit.

How much money are you going to save on a tener a week from the dole ? Enough to plug this €20Bn gap ?

this thread's about the minimum wage btw.

spank_inferno · 10-02-2009 4:10pm

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

min max wage is too high. how can we be competitive.

I fixed your post for you.
Ireland can become competitive by decreasing the maximum pay.
The head of Bank of Ireland was paid nearly €4 million euro in 2006.
Taking as an approximation that amounts to the yearly wage costs of 220, thats right 220 minimum wage workers.

Competitiveness! does this country know the meaning of the word?!

Competitiveness can be helped in other ways:
EG: Government in a popularity stunt do away with domestic rates
Local authorities have to get the money from somewhere so raise the rates for local businesses.

EG 2 Government in a popluarity stunt agree to benchmarking.
Local authorities have to pick up the tab so levy more charges on local businesses. Add this to unrealistic rents on most shop premises and I can see any reduction in minimum wage being used by employers to protect existing margins rather than incentivising employment.

A better way to incentivise employment would be to waive Employer PRSI contributions for the first 2 years of creating a new job

deleriumtremens · 10-02-2009 4:14pm

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

How much money are you going to save on a tener a week from the dole ? Enough to plug this €20Bn gap ?

this thread's about the minimum wage btw.

Not accounting for lost tax revenues (eg vat from the items the person would have bought with the extra 14.30 euro)....this year the government would save (taking 360000 people to be a likely average figure for numbers unemployed this year)......(360000 x 14.30 x 53) = 272.8 million euro taking the christmas bonus into account.

Sorry, when I did the sum on my calculator I thought it read 2.728 billion euro!! And here was i wondering why the government didnt just do that!

ScumLord · 10-02-2009 4:15pm

deleriumtremens wrote: »

I agree with this. Understandably a bitter pill to swallow, (I myself am on the dole), would anyone here disagree that cutting the minimum wage by a bit and also decreasing the dole to maybe 190 a week in line with this, would help the economy more than not doing it? .

It wouldn't help in the slightest. Do you think the likes of Dell are going to turn around and come back because the minimum wage (did Dell ever pay minimum?) went down? No, because we'd have to put it down to a quarter of what it is currently to compete with other countries in manufacturing.

rocally · 10-02-2009 4:15pm

Our min wage is too high , In the last number of years it has increased continually - it has made our labour costs for low skilled jobs very high and has forced hotels, manufacturing facilities and other such areas close down

I agree with the cost of living being high here and i can understand both sides but I have seen first hand how companies haven’t been able to continue operating because of the minimum wage increases. Companies have to budget and if you have a set amount for wages and the minimum wage jumps for €7 to €8.65 in 3 years then that 8.65 has to divide into the same budget - result - people lose jobs.

kraggy · 10-02-2009 4:19pm

Regarding the dole, I think those who are on it the longest should have it decreased by 10-15%.

They're obviously the ones who have been taking the piss for years as there was ample opportunity to find employment during the good times.

They've been sitting on their arses for who knows how long at the expense of me and you.

You can't really cut the dole for those who have been signing on for just the last year as they are a) more likely to be genuine and b) more likely to have mortgages than those on the dole for more than 2 years.

Too many scumbags have been enjoying free money for too long now. Time for them to start to feel a pinch at last.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 10-02-2009 4:19pm

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Here here. You're not going to find anyone on the scratcher saying "way hey lets cut that pesky minimum wage , it's draggin our country into the graveyard" :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Excuse my ignorance, but could you explain this a little clearer please?

spank_inferno wrote: »

I fixed your post for you.
Ireland can become competitive by decreasing the maximum pay.
The head of Bank of Ireland was paid nearly €4 million euro in 2006.
Taking as an approximation that amounts to the yearly employment of 220, thats right 220 minimum wage workers.

Competitiveness! does this country know the meaning of the word?!

Exactly...

While I think that people in high positions deserve a good wage, as they worked very hard for that position, I don't believe it should be such a wage that working one year will make enough money to last you the rest of your life. 4 million in one year is just outrageous. It's a complete joke. It's a mockery of the average people of Ireland. We get punished while the people that put us here in the first place reap the rewards. They are untouchable.

If I knew what to do, where to go, who to talk to to make a change I would. We need to remove these rogues from these highly responsible positions and give it to someone who cares more for the state of our country than their own salaries... I am just fed up hearing how they live a life of luxery, going unpunished while we live in desperation.

Mickah · 10-02-2009 4:20pm

We, Ireland as a country, cannot afford to pay our bills. It's a simple balance sheet.

Blaming all the "fat cats" (bankers/property developers/the government) and complaining about cuts in income (no matter what the source) will get us nowhere. WE HAVE NO MONEY!

We have to reduce our costs and we all have to play a part.

Reducing peoples income will bring down the high cost of living. It's already happening in the private sector. It's going to happen in the public sector (I have no time for them striking, play your part). Reductions in social welfare and the Dol are a forgone conclusion.

As is the minimum wage. It's too high. We have to get competitive.

I do think there should be a reasonable levy on people earning over a certain amount a year. Nothing excessive, maybe 2/3%. I do not know how much money that'll generate, but when compared to most they have more to spare.

ScumLord · 10-02-2009 4:21pm

rocally wrote: »

Our min wage is too high , In the last number of years it has increased continually - it has made our labour costs for low skilled jobs very high and has forced hotels, manufacturing facilities and other such areas close down

I know Irish manufacturing companies that moved their factory's to Poland but still charge the same amount here for the end product. It's greed plain and simple. You can't punish the average employee for the mistakes of management.

Now they want to take away our minimum wage

Comments