HSE proposed pay cuts for junior doctors from February 18th...

drzhivago

Kristopherus wrote: »

Wow!!! One would think that ye were all earning just over the dole rate. Back in the late seventies, the IMO got the DOH to capitulate to a claim for overtime by NCHDs. This has built up over the years to include the addition of a raft of allowances. Most NCHDs earn 60k to 100k pa. And didnt a group of NCHDs bring a case against the HSE to prevent them implementing the EWTD:D A case against reducing working hours ! And you expect us to take you seriously Get a life ffs.

Again lots of misquotes, NO OT in 1970s I am afraid, NCHDS had a 140 hour fortnight then with their salary covering this

When EU laws changed in mid 1970s to introduce a basic 45 hour week for all workers the DOH refused initially to pay any extra for hours between 45 and 70 and eventually agreed to pay 33% (NOT 133%) so for every extra hour you worked above basic week you get one third of the hourly rate.

This changed in early 80's to 50% but in 1987 a new contract came in specifying taht NCHD should not work more than 65 hours, hospitals took this to mean they only had to pay for 65 hours and keep people working till 100 and just not paying them

Cheap labour, when you work for free you will never be idle

No one has taken a case not to have EWTD implemented so you can cull that rumour straight away.

It wasnt until 2000 that NCHDS got paid OT (ie more money for additional hours, higher than basic rate) and even then it was 1st 15 hours at 125%, rest at 150% when standard in health service is 1st 4 hours at 150% and then double time thereafter


Kristopherus, i dont mean to be rude but you need to get facts straight before criticising. My basic is 70K but I am 16 years qualified as a doc and have had to work damn heard to get where I am, 40 years of age with 3 kids, no promotion prospects and having to change job every 6 months, many times having to move away from family and kids in school because no jobs nearby


It would surprise you to know that there are a number of docs on dole because no jobs in their fields right now,

drzhivago

mulletamoeba wrote: »

Three things for NCHDs.
1. Join the IMO - you cannot participate in any industrial action unless you're in a union. fees are tax deductable.
2. Don't sign recently altered contract that some hospitals circulated if you have one (it does not guarantee training grant etc)
3. Prepare for industrial action. The fact is the NCHD is the workhorse of the health service. If we unite against the HSE ****s and defend our working conditions it will work. Think of skeleton weekend-style cover, no clinics, no elective surgery. The system cannot run as currently configured except on the backs of illegally overworked NCHDs. Industrial action would bvery quickly bring it to a head.

PS I have no problem contributing to national deficit problems providing it is proportionate to what everyone else is doing (ie. the pension levy etc.) NCHDs are being cynically targeted as they think we won't do anything about it. They could be right, a lot of doctors are total pussies about their conditions as they don't want to rock the boat. They will be proved wrong I think.

PPS Where is the consultant support now? They have their recently inflated salary scale. My guess is the IHCA stays silent, complicit with the HSE.

I agree with most of the above

1. Join the IMO
2. fill in your OT
3. keep copies of all your paperwork
4. pass contracts by your local IMO rep before signing
5. dont sign contract for july until you are sure it is the national one

I agree about contributing to National cause if distributed evenly

Dont agree with arrangement for Levy as stands as ALL nchd income may come under the levy, OT etc

There are some NCHDs who earn 150K out there because they are working 110-120 hour weeks, they will be levied on that on the basis that they will get the beenfit of a public pension in future, But their pension will not be based on OT it will be just based on the basic salary ie 50-60K (PRE OT)

Whereas a HSE manager earning 150K will pay the same levy now and get a pension based on 150K salary, big difference

Also I do not know of anyone who is retired and getting a pension based on an NCHD salary. the government are making money on NCHD subs to the superann as few remain in the country to claim it, many go back to their home countries, many irish grads emigrate and get jobs abroad because of career blocks here so they have a major surplus in that fund from what NCHDS take out


regarding the consultants, the IMO consultants are behind the NCHDS the other group I dont know

The IHCA were founded because of an NCHD strike in 1987, that was the principle they were founded upon they disagreed with strike, fast forward to last year when the contract discussions werent going their way and a meeting in a dublin hotel of IHCA voted upon a floor motion for ... you guessed it industrial action or strike to the rest of us.

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think they are making such savage cuts in your pay so that when it inevitibly goes to negotiation they will roll back on a few cuts and make you guys look mean.
I really dont think it is even feasible: say you are running a surgical service with 4 SHOs doing a 1 in 4 now they want you to take a day off pre and post call so every 4 days you have 2 off.:rolleyes:

Watch the media spin on this. HSE pays for a lot of newspaper ads.

Sorry TRAUMADOC theyare already in negotiations and have been for about 4 years on NCDH contracts, they didnt want to finish them before consultant contract in case they had to go back quickly and revise again based on whatever consultants did or didnt agree too.

To quote from teh HSe speak, they ae not going to ait for teh likes of the LRC and are just going to act and take the consequences if there are any

Regarding your example above there are lots of misunderstandings regarding the pre and post call thing, its either or not both and its a half day not a full day

What most people miss though is that if you take this mandatory lunch unpaid hour into account as well along with annual leave there may be periods with no one around!!!

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the NCHDs agreed to this work plan - and have a "work to rule" refuse to work any hours in excess.


They will need a lot of locums to fill the service gaps ( obstetrics for example).

Give me a little leeway here with this but just for one second imagine we agreed to all the cuts in the spirit of partnership and this brave new world we are facing into

Imagine the HSE make all the savings they require

Imagine then that as quid pro quo they dont make OT mandatory anymore, how could you after you have slashed the rates for it, that would be only fair wouldnt it

How many people do you think would volunteer for on call if they werent going to get paid OT for it

How would they run the hospitals then and whose responsibility would that be

the_syco

Thoie wrote: »

Don't discuss being paid or not paid for lunch time. Focus on the fact that you didn't get time for lunch/dinner today, and have survived solely on vending machine coffee for 12 hours.

Highlight cases where you recommended that a patient needed a certain amount of attention/care but they didn't get it because of lack of staff/cutbacks.

Highlight cases where patients got the care they needed, when they needed it, then point out that if there were only 50% of the doctors available, what might have happened.

Highlight the difficulties of examining A&E patients in hallways. The press seem to love stories about A&E patients in hallways.

Agree with the above, esp the bit about not being paid for lunches, mainly as no-one (in the private sector) really does. Saying that due to X Y or Z patient needing your help coupled with the lack of doc's, you don't get to take your breaks, is a better angle to take.

Was in hospital for a few days a month before xmas (broke right elbow, internal bruising on the right hip area). Wasn't many "blue vested foreigners" walking around (sorry for my ignorance, but I've no idea what grade they were) at night time, but they were very helpful (well, they did their best). During the day, there were more of them, and a few (white coated) Irish (whom I assume were doctors), and one (I assume consultant) who seemed to know his sh|t, was very helpful, but I felt like the object of a "show and tell" group, as 6 people followed him as he went through the different wards. Was almost comical to see the way the consultants' minons acted.

drzhivago wrote: »

Regarding NCHDS being high earners compared to average what comparison are you using, if you take any job and make them work comparable hours their own take homes will be massive.

Agreed. If I worked shift, I'd get paid a fifth more per year than I do now.

drzhivago

the_syco wrote: »

Agreed. If I worked shift, I'd get paid a fifth more per year than I do now.

It wasnt the shift I was getting at but the numbers of hours IF you were allowed by LAW and if OT was mandatory (you had no choice) and if you worked 100 hours per week what would your gross be

This is what the HSE keep talking about with OT, they talk about docs being greedy and wanting to preserve huge OT

If they made OT voluntary tomorrow they would have a few people who would want to work all hours and earn massive sums but you would have a majority that want to cut their hours dramatically

The difficulty then is HSE would not be able to staff hospitals

Nurses have voluntary OT, paid at reasonable rates (percentage to basic better than docs), have large numbers of nurses in hospitals who volunteer to go into a bank system to provide cover for hospitals at last minute if there are shortages, even still hospital cant fill all the slots because they dont all want to work OT and value freetime and family life

With respect to docs OT mandatory so make you work lots of it, criticise you for earning big sum for working OT, now to cut costs want to cut rates they pay you OT at from 125% for 1st 15 hours to 100% effectively and to get rid of 150% rate altogether, so for working 100 hours per week on your hundredth hour you are getting 25% ore than basic

I worked shifts in a co-op as schoolboy, regular 8 hours, if they got big orders and wanted us to stay late it was 150% for next 4 hours and 200% after, also got fed for staying late--what a comparison

randombloke

To reply to an earlier post by Kristopherus, he/she has obviously swallowed all the drivel fed to him by the HSE spin doctors. You're probably right in that most NCHDs probably earn 60-100k with the majority being in the lower end of that. What you fail to acknowledge in tthat in order to earn that, you have to work 80-100 hours per week.
Well my little 9-5 begrudger, that is like having between 2 and 2 1/2 full time jobs...
You will find that most doctors don't want to work this amount as it is very unsafe and would happily only work 40 hours per week but the problem with this is that the health service with rregard to doctors is so heavily understaffed it is only by working these amount of hours that the junior doctors actually keep the hospitals open and providing 24/7 care. That said I can't see the HSE going on a big recruitment drive to hire extra doctors so the average number of hours worked can be reduced, the HSE basically want the doctors to continue to provide all this cover for free.

Svalbard

http://www.imt.ie/news/2009/02/nonconsultant_doctors_consider.html

Above link is to an article in the Irish Medical Times. Published on the 6th, regrettable i only just found it.

Seems as if the HSE are all set to vilify the doctors, no surprises there then.

"The HSE is only seeking to reduce doctors’ working time to comply with the EU directive. Any action by doctors which would cause anxiety and upset to patients would be regretted," the HSE said in a statement.

This has been a perfectly civil thread so far but I have to say - F** those f***ing c***s!!

The rest of the HSEs line is similarly infuriating. Do they really expect that anyone will believe that now, suddenly, they are interested in implementing the EWTD? Aside from a few token trial runs they have taken NO steps towards this until now. Complete and utter bo****ks!

To be fair you'd need to be incredibly thick to actually buy into the crap the HSE are spouting. To believe that the HSE only has the best interests of the poor patients at heart, while the mean doctors are only interested in their fat salaries. Please!

ZYX

drzhivago wrote: »

Regarding NCHDS being high earners compared to average what comparison are you using, if you take any job and make them work comparable hours their own take homes will be massive.

If you compare the basic salaries you will have many docs working alongside nurses who will be far better paid than them, with all the hours reductions, unpaid hours etc that will happen very soon

The average salary in this country is €42,000. The median wage is €38,000. The average hours worked is 45 hours a week. A first year reg (with typically 3-4 years experience) will earn €53,000 for a 39 hour week. Add to that a living out allowance and a higher degree allowance and that means a doctor with 3 years experience can expect to earn €57,000. By any stretch of the imagination a person who earns 50% more than the median wage is a high earner.

ZYX

Star Trek wrote: »

.

* Consultants will work a 37hour week, including evenings and five hours on Saturdays and Sundays ‘‘in certain circumstances’’. Prior to this, consultants would have worked a 33-hour week from Monday to Friday, with some weekend on-call duties.

* Consultants will lead and be involved in clinical management. This will include the position of clinical director, similar to the existing post of master in a maternity hospital, a working doctor who is also in charge of budgets and clinical teams.

* There are three types of contract proposed: Type A is the ‘‘public only’’ contract, with a salary of up to €240,000 a year, plus allowances for evening and weekend work.

Type B, with a salary of up to €220,000, will allow the holder to do 80 per cent public work and 20 per cent private work in co-located hospitals, the latter to be monitored at hospital level.

Type C, with a salary of up to €175,000, will enable the holder to conduct private practice off site. This is being described as only being available in ‘‘exceptional’’ circumstances.

* A common waiting list for all diagnostic tests will be introduced.

* A new body to regulate the appointment of consultants, to replace Comhairle na nOspideal, will be introduced. Comhairle was abolished when the HSE was formed, and consultants’ input into new appointments was lost.

Private practice earnings not mentioned in the deal, Our dear consultants earn thousands every month.

Why don't government bound consultants to train NCHDs?

Looking at the deal, do you still think Ireland is going through economic recessions :eek: ????

This contract was agreed las year. 80% of consultants so far have accepted the new contract. First payment was due in July last year. As of yet no payments have been made to consultants. Mary Harney has now said there is no money available to pay consultants the extra pay due from 01st July to Dec 31st 2008. Whether the increased salaries will ever be paid has not been clarified.

RobFowl

ZYX wrote: »

The average salary in this country is €42,000. The median wage is €38,000. The average hours worked is 45 hours a week. A first year reg (with typically 3-4 years experience) will earn €53,000 for a 39 hour week. Add to that a living out allowance and a higher degree allowance and that means a doctor with 3 years experience can expect to earn €57,000. By any stretch of the imagination a person who earns 50% more than the median wage is a high earner.

For what it's worth Sinn Fein define high earners as those on 100k or more

RobFowl

My main problem with the proposals are that the training and supervision aspects (layers of on call) are being eroded so far as to make the job of intern especially a full service one as opposed to a training role.
Extending the working day from 0800 to 2000 is from a service point of view reasonable. (note it's not being applied for admin). Reducing overtime payments is neither reasonable nor fair. Introducing a 48 hour limit for interns is simply going to lead to them being blackmailed into staying for the late ward round "or else you won't get a good reference".
The training grant was vital for paying for courses, equipment, books which will now have to come out or salary effectively either take a double hit or don't do any training.
Do we really want a cohort of docs who don't have ACLS,PALS etc???

drzhivago

ZYX wrote: »

The average salary in this country is €42,000. The median wage is €38,000. The average hours worked is 45 hours a week. A first year reg (with typically 3-4 years experience) will earn €53,000 for a 39 hour week. Add to that a living out allowance and a higher degree allowance and that means a doctor with 3 years experience can expect to earn €57,000. By any stretch of the imagination a person who earns 50% more than the median wage is a high earner.

Not comparing like with like here, you are quoting NCHD salary but not where the average salary is coming from or the median wage

A first year Registrar may not have a higher degree allowance necessarily, they have spent at least 6 years in college and worked 4 more thats 10 years and maybe more if they have spent longer as an SHO
You are not telling us anything about the median wage person to compare

My point about their earnings is that if others worked as long their pay would be as high if not higher, take your median wage person with standard OT,
Basic 38K = hourly €18.83
regular OT as applies 1st 4 hours 150% rest 200%

for 100 hour week our median wage earner would earn annually
€7,795 for OT at 150% and €88,350 for hours at 200%

gives a total of €134,145

That was the comparison I was making, if you do ludicrous hours it will result in incredible earnings no matter what the basic is

Fact is only junior doctors are made to work 80-100 hours per week because OT is mandatory for them and it is illegal for everyone else to work these hours because it is supposedly unsafe, but it is apparently safe for the junior docs PLEASE

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

My main problem with the proposals are that the training and supervision aspects (layers of on call) are being eroded so far as to make the job of intern especially a full service one as opposed to a training role.
Extending the working day from 0800 to 2000 is from a service point of view reasonable. (note it's not being applied for admin). Reducing overtime payments is neither reasonable nor fair. Introducing a 48 hour limit for interns is simply going to lead to them being blackmailed into staying for the late ward round "or else you won't get a good reference".
The training grant was vital for paying for courses, equipment, books which will now have to come out or salary effectively either take a double hit or don't do any training.
Do we really want a cohort of docs who don't have ACLS,PALS etc???

dont personally have much of an issue with extending the working day as long again as it is useful and productive, no point having docs around when there is not much medical activity.

Bulk of hospital activity for doctors apart from emergency cover is
clinics (run 9-5 monday -friday)
Theatre sessions (on average run 8am-6pm max Mon -fri)
interactions with multidisciplinary teams (mainly 9-5 mon-fri)

I am not clear yet what extending the routine day to 8pm will do to help anything if there is no routine planned scheduled work happening at this time

Interns wont be able to be blackmailed realistically as someone will be breathing down their necks to make sure they are off premises, in australia they have people hired to make sure docs are gone in morning after their shifts as inevitably there are things to do and you will be asked if around to do them, over there people get paid treble time for >24 hours work which is very rare

The whole HSE saying this is an EWTD move is a farce, if thats the case why dont they have everyone working 48 hours, because they cant

why do they still plan to have people working longer than 13 hours ina row, because they cant run teh service without having people do that but isnt this breaking EWTD YES

They get away with such incredible spin doctoring because they hire so many spin people

i was at an IMO meeting last year and they said they approached spin agencies to do som work for them, 8/10 said they coudnt it would be a conflict as they already worked for the HSE

How do you compete with that??

Why dont they make OT voluntary, because they cant, not enough people would do it

Its immoral to drop the rates and then force people to do mandatory OT, make it voluntary and you will see how many people want to work excessively long hours

RobFowl

drzhivago wrote: »

Bulk of hospital activity for doctors apart from emergency cover is
clinics (run 9-5 monday -friday)
Theatre sessions (on average run 8am-6pm max Mon -fri)
interactions with multidisciplinary teams (mainly 9-5 mon-fri)

I was involved in a group negotiation with the HSE some time ago. They had 3-4 pages of definitions including GP's working day being 0800-1800 but when asked which managers would be available at 0800 they produced an annex which states the "HSE working day" was 0900-1700.
Their ability to spin things is quite amazing

ZYX

drzhivago wrote: »

Not comparing like with like here, you are quoting NCHD salary but not where the average salary is coming from or the median wage

Sorry about that. It is from 2006 CSO manpower study. It looks at the average earnings of all workers (including junior doctors) except farmers and fishermen
http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pr_nationalemploymentsurvey2006.htm

drzhivago wrote: »

A first year Registrar may not have a higher degree allowance necessarily, they have spent at least 6 years in college and worked 4 more thats 10 years and maybe more if they have spent longer as an SHO
You are not telling us anything about the median wage person to compare

My point about their earnings is that if others worked as long their pay would be as high if not higher, take your median wage person with standard OT,
Basic 38K = hourly €18.83
regular OT as applies 1st 4 hours 150% rest 200%

for 100 hour week our median wage earner would earn annually
€7,795 for OT at 150% and €88,350 for hours at 200%

gives a total of €134,145

The vast majority of people only get paid time and a half for overtime (not double time)

drzhivago wrote: »

That was the comparison I was making, if you do ludicrous hours it will result in incredible earnings no matter what the basic is

Fact is only junior doctors are made to work 80-100 hours per week because OT is mandatory for them and it is illegal for everyone else to work these hours because it is supposedly unsafe, but it is apparently safe for the junior docs PLEASE

My point was that NCHDs are highly paid even before overtime. Public sympathy for any industrial action would be limited.

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

I was involved in a group negotiation with the HSE some time ago. They had 3-4 pages of definitions including GP's working day being 0800-1800 but when asked which managers would be available at 0800 they produced an annex which states the "HSE working day" was 0900-1700.
Their ability to spin things is quite amazing

Yes another example of do what we say not what we do in this great spirit of partnership we hear about

What a brave new world it is

drzhivago

ZYX wrote: »

Sorry about that. It is from 2006 CSO manpower study. It looks at the average earnings of all workers (including junior doctors) except farmers and fishermen
http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pr_nationalemploymentsurvey2006.htm

The vast majority of people only get paid time and a half for overtime (not double time)


My point was that NCHDs are highly paid even before overtime. Public sympathy for any industrial action would be limited.

suggest you look at OT rates applicable in public service

you are quoting from 2006 survey but yet comparing to 2009 NCHD salary levels fairs fair if you are going to try and make comparisons at least make them for the same year

Additionally you are adding in degree allowance for Reg to come up with an even higher "salary' as you quote it when not all will have that

You are also forgetting the 10 years it took to get that position

suggest you take a look at comparable salaries in HSE staff and you will find that NCHDs have a salary level that compares very favourably with other employees from a scientific background in the health service

I am not sure what your particular beef is but if you and your colleagues faced a massive cut in your working terms and conditions you would react too wouldnt you

Do you think doctors in hospitals should be providing health services for free

where do you believe is a fair wage level

drzhivago

ZYX wrote: »

The vast majority of people only get paid time and a half for overtime (not double time)
My point was that NCHDs are highly paid even before overtime. Public sympathy for any industrial action would be limited.

So its alright for the vast bulk as you say to get OT at 150% but not junior docs

I know for a fact many get OT at 200%, have seen the paychecks

What do you say to HSE wanting to cut OT from 150% to 125% bearing in mind that OT is mandatory, does that sound fair to you or does your sympathy not extend to junior docs

ZYX

drzhivago wrote: »

Do you think doctors in hospitals should be providing health services for free

Stupid Comment.
The average reg will be 10 years post leaving cert. Yes that is true. However the average worker will be nearer 20 years post leaving cert.
Excluding all other allowances a reg is 1997 earned £25000 (about €32000) It has risen 65% in last 12 years. Inflation over that time was about 45%. In addition to this they got increased allowances and grants and much better pay for overtime. Actual take home pay for an NCHD has risen by closer to 100% Junior doctors have benefited greatly from the Celtic Tiger and should not be surprised that they have to make sacrafices now the tiger is dead.

drzhivago

ZYX wrote: »

Stupid Comment.
The average reg will be 10 years post leaving cert. Yes that is true. However the average worker will be nearer 20 years post leaving cert.
Excluding all other allowances a reg is 1997 earned £25000 (about €32000) It has risen 65% in last 12 years. Inflation over that time was about 45%. In addition to this they got increased allowances and grants and much better pay for overtime. Actual take home pay for an NCHD has risen by closer to 100% Junior doctors have benefited greatly from the Celtic Tiger and should not be surprised that they have to make sacrafices now the tiger is dead.

Again think you need to go back to your fact book

where is the average worker 20 years post Leaving cert, i would like to see where that fact comes from and what body has calculated it

Reg since 1997 has received no special pay increases, the only awards have been the national pay increases, which applied equally across the board and benchmarking which public service workers all were invited to participate in

There have been no secret deals done, no additional back door money, unvouched expenses or the like

regarding allowances they have risen with the national pay awards as they have for all others also, incidentally a junior doc can hold only one qualification allowance whereas some others in public service can carry 3

Much better pay for overtime, I might correct you on that one, since 2000 junior doctors have actually gotten overtime ( as defined in the 1936 Act)

Prior to 2000 junior docs received lower rates of pay for extra hours

Hour 1 100%
Hour 40 50%
Hours > 65 NO PAY

Again in a situation where overtime is mandatory, does that seem fair to you


regarding Grant, that came in the year 2000 to recompense for money spent on training courses, books, educational materials, conferences etc, vouched by your employer as being necessary for training

There is a cap on the award of 3,800 per annum and many junior docs would spend in excess of that amount in fees to the various bodies that regulate their jobs €450 to medical Council €3,200 to RCSI etc etc you do not get this grant if you do not spend any money

we all have to make sacrifices, i agree completely but they must be equitable. I worked many years for free in the health service where up to 30 hours per week I did not get paid for OT, now that we actually get paid for hours worked you dont like it

what gives

Traumadoc

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=39391-qqqx=1.asp

Interesting that the cost of training grants and allowences is 150 million according to Mr Mcgrath (about 35k for each NCHD):rolleyes:

kindajaded

Traumadoc wrote: »

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=39391-qqqx=1.asp

Interesting that the cost of training grants and allowences is 150 million according to Mr Mcgrath (about 35k for each NCHD):rolleyes:

mr mcgrath possibly got it mixed up with the cost of his own grants and allowances...

Traumadoc

ZYX wrote: »

The vast majority of people only get paid time and a half for overtime (not double time)

I think NCHDs only get double time for Sunday/BH work.

2Scoops

Traumadoc wrote: »

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=39391-qqqx=1.asp

Interesting that the cost of training grants and allowences is 150 million according to Mr Mcgrath (about 35k for each NCHD):rolleyes:

Maybe he's including the salaries of the HSE executives that have to sign off on the training grants in that figure? :pac:

kindajaded

Kristopherus wrote: »

Wow!!! One would think that ye were all earning just over the dole rate. Back in the late seventies, the IMO got the DOH to capitulate to a claim for overtime by NCHDs. This has built up over the years to include the addition of a raft of allowances. Most NCHDs earn 60k to 100k pa. And didnt a group of NCHDs bring a case against the HSE to prevent them implementing the EWTD:D A case against reducing working hours ! And you expect us to take you seriously Get a life ffs.

not really a reply to this guy but to other nchds out there:
this guy is how we can do a work to rule - this guy and many others really believe that we want/feel entitled to/ will die without our precious overtime. see the lovely sean mcgraths comments in one of the papers at the weekend: that we "seem to feel entitled [:D !!] to overtime."
get the imo to demand immediate implementation of the ewtd, if they don't, take it to the european courts demanding it be implemented. tell them they can shove their overtime up their briefcases bottoms and refuse to do it. they give us a new unilateral contract - the imo gives them one - not confliciting on any other point but demanding immediate ewtd. sure couldn't sean et al come and do it themselves?

cxcully

Hello all. I qualified in 2003. 4th year Psych Reg in the Wesht. Basic is 54000, OT last year was 16K on top of that. 1 in 8 call so relatively better than med/surg but each Psych case is 2 hours if you want to do it properly and demanding facing psychosis. suicidal stuff etc. The meds get more complex every year as do the interactions/opportunities for litigation.
The Res was pretty unsettled this morning. Most had heard of the Grant being in danger but the scale of these proposed cutbacks has everybody reeling. It's remarkably quiet so far in the mainstream media besides an article in this Sunday's Business Post (which at least had a striking and true title referring to the loss of 20% of our income). Joe public is going to be hearing a lot about this over the coming weeks.
IMO need to be strong on this. A GP trainee in the Res had heard the possibility of providing only a Sunday service if industrial action is indicated.
On a consult to the General this afternoon met an old medschool friend. Her old man is an accountant and calculated that she would be down 25% on her salary. I can only presume that we are all in the same boat when you total up all the ludicrous cuts.
This is grossly unfair particularly on top of the levy. As mentioned in previous posts we are such an easy target....transient, disjointed, fearful....without a heavyweight union like SIPTU/ICTU. Particularly offensive is the tone of the HSE management invoking the EWTD regarding what is so obviously an opportunistic effort to save cash. My fear is that they have deliberately thrown in some cuts that they will compromise on so that the Grant and T 1/2 are lost to us. Who are these management...two or three penpushers around a table?
I don't think non-medical people will understand the significance of the Grant. I've just paid for for the final hurdle of the Royal College of Psychiatrist exams- the CASC....£760 (€895) thank you...exam course is £450....Paper 3 in August and January was £330 odd each....the old Part one £200...countless books av £20 to £60....two laptops over past 4 years for essential presentations and honing Evidence Based Medicine skills to keep up with our motivated peers worldwide. I have never used it to go on some bullzhit in the Four Seasons. Joe Public wants his ailing relatives to be looked after a doc at the top of their game in terms of knowledge. If the Grant goes I'm not suggesting that we will suddenly deskill en masse but frankly we will definitely be less well trained and that other far more subtle and important thing in any organisation-morale- will dissipate. I presume that the in the private sector in house paid training is the norm.
Texts flying all day. The UK, Canada, Australia with humane protected training all options. I understand the country is going down the tubes but doctor's training is not a luxury....the future health of your parents/kids is dependent on it to a huge degree.
Most annoying thing is knowing the potential savings in stripping out the layers of middle management. I remember every fortnight handing in my timesheets in a large hospital in the west and being astonished walking through offices filled with admin staff. "Health Promotions" "Asst. Administrator" etc...and that damn propaganda magazine with "thoughtful" pictures of Drumm.
It's the PRINCIPLE of the whole thing. I would take a pay cut in the knowledge that other workers (above 35-40K) were doing the same during a difficult time. And yes I would like to see the EWTD and work 48 hours and not do as much OT and again would take a pay cut to have a better quality of life.
Interesting few weeks to come....

DocDaneka

Time to wade in here.

First of all that fcuk you cutback letter was signed by Sean Mc Grath. That lousy useless **** is on a salary of 205,000 plus xmas bonus plus 50,000 performance bonus (based on targets he gets to choose himself). Any mention of his or his cronies salaries being cut ? Of course not.

Second of all to compare like with like, compare our salaries to EU/US/AUS/NZ salaries for doctors. You will find them sorely lacking ( one of the reasons im off to AUS asap )

Thirdly we work several jobs at once combing doctor nurse phlebotomist porter admin all at same time. Dont see us getting several salaries though.

Also to hell with public opinion. I am so sick and tired of being shafted I dont care anymore. Im out of this god damn banana republic run by grossly overpaid donkeys. But before I go I intend to fully support those forced to stay.If Mary Harney wants to work 80 hours a week dealing with an endless tirade of drunks junkies scumbags she is welcome to. Herself and the consultants will have to run the hospitals.

If you think interns wont be blackmailed ........ they already are! try asking mayo general interns. Current average working week for interns = 75 hours, new contract is for = 48 hours ! Who do they think is going to do the work ? magic hse pixies ?

drzhivago

cxcully wrote: »

The Res was pretty unsettled this morning. Most had heard of the Grant being in danger but the scale of these proposed cutbacks has everybody reeling. It's remarkably quiet so far in the mainstream media besides an article in this Sunday's Business Post (which at least had a striking and true title referring to the loss of 20% of our income). Joe public is going to be hearing a lot about this over the coming weeks.

there were meetings before christmas organised by IMO where all this was discussed but few turned up

cxcully wrote: »

IMO need to be strong on this. A GP trainee in the Res had heard the possibility of providing only a Sunday service if industrial action is indicated.

If you are in the IMO you are the IMO, this is part of the problem with junior docs they have never really learned about what their union is there for. You and your colleagues need to be strong. I am glad to be finishing up soon as a junior doc but get frustrated hearing that docs think someone else should solve the problem. SIPTU et al appear strong to you because their members know what a UNION is for and when to use it

cxcully wrote: »

On a consult to the General this afternoon met an old medschool friend. Her old man is an accountant and calculated that she would be down 25% on her salary. I can only presume that we are all in the same boat when you total up all the ludicrous cuts.

For some it will be considerable more if they dont do much OT as in that case the grant/allowances mean more to your take home than anything else

very interesting few weeks

Presume you will be going to meeting in Galway on 26th then

cxcully

drzhivago wrote: »

there were meetings before christmas organised by IMO where all this was discussed but few turned up

These specific cuts in OT/S Leave/Lunch outside of the Training Grant were known about before Xmas?!

Dr. Z, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was going to sit back and let the IMO do all the work. Most NCHDs are fully aware of what the Union is for and the extent to which they advocate on our behalf. We discussed it as a group and will support whatever is decided. Will certainly attend the Galway meeting.