9/11 Opinion Poll - Whodunnit?

espinolman

It was time travelers from the future that done it , they are trying to change the timeline .

Diogenes

Happy Monday wrote: »

Oh man and I've already torched that mosque.
Still - I can blame the Israelis for it! :pac:
To suggest that Israel - the beacon of the democracy and free thinking in the Middle East - carried out these attacks is madness.
Two generations from the concentration camps they have built an open, liberal, inclusive and progressive democracy in an area in which Arabs have practiced suppression, misogny, repression and denial of rights.

I suspect the reality in somewhere in the middle ground between the two of you. Many of Israelis actions in the last few weeks should be considered war crimes. While at the same time defending Hamas, (who are funded by neighbouring Arab countries) who seem to thing indiscriminatingly firing thousands of rockets into civilian population areas is acceptable, is reprehensible.

Israeli has engaged in war crimes, meanwhile this week the Iranian Ambassador to Ireland called for Israeli's complete destruction.

Theres no easy solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and trying to paint one side as the goodies and the others as the baddies does a disservice to any attempt to bring peace and stability to the region.

The US will also support Israel as an ally - from Truman to Obama.
Why bomb on 9/11?

Well I was wondering who the CTers were going to blame for all the world's woes once the Bush administration had left office so now we know, we're back to blaming the Jews for all the world's woes. The oldies are the goodies.

But the above is an excellent point, why? Why on earth would Israeli carry out 911? Israeli has enjoyed support from every president since Truman. Israeli has had US support since it's creation. Bush didn't significantly increase aid to Israeli post 911. What possible motivation would Israeli have to carry out the attacks. And furthermore consider how dire the consequences would if they were exposed as the actual conspirators.

Does this make any sense?

Sofa_King Good

Happy Monday wrote: »

Oh man and I've already torched that mosque.
Still - I can blame the Israelis for it! :pac:


To suggest that Israel - the beacon of the democracy and free thinking in the Middle East - carried out these attacks is madness.

Democracy? gimme a break. Ever heard of the right of return? Here it is, article 13 of the The Universal Declaration of Human Rights a right taken away from the Palestian People and her 3million+ refugees. Their return would upset the demogrgaphics of a "Jewish State" - Democracy?

Happy Monday wrote: »

Two generations from the concentration camps they have built an open, liberal, inclusive and progressive democracy

Liberal? Inclusive? Progressive? It is an ultra-nationalistic state which aggressively pushes its own agenda, please read this: http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/184

Happy Monday wrote: »

in an area in which Arabs have practiced suppression, misogny, repression and denial of rights.

That xenophobia doesn't even deserve a response.
.

Happy Monday wrote: »

The US will also support Israel as an ally
from Truman to Obama.

- Unconditionally, Why? ANd what does it prove?

from Truman (here is what Truman had to say
Truman - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3059087.stm to Obama.


Maybe this is why - "(Ariel) Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America." - http://www.mediamonitors.net/khodr49.html

Happy Monday wrote: »

Why bomb on 9/11?

I didn't say they did it. Foreknowledge and complicity perhaps. All I am saying is that they are potential suspects

,8,1

Why bomb on 9/11?

Why bomb the USS Liberty? Means to wider geo-political ends. (Granted the USS Liberty bombing was a very botched effort.)

Well I was wondering who the CTers were going to blame for all the world's woes once the Bush administration

Outside of the how shall we say "Establishment conspiracy theory scene" (Alex Jones et al) some of us rightfully recognised that GWB was nothing but a puppet bit player. People who blamed GWB for everything were almost as bad as those who believe everything the White House and Media Complex say.

Sofa_King Good

Diogenes wrote: »

I suspect the reality in somewhere in the middle ground between the two of you. Many of Israelis actions in the last few weeks should be considered war crimes. While at the same time defending Hamas, (who are funded by neighbouring Arab countries) who seem to thing indiscriminatingly firing thousands of rockets into civilian population areas is acceptable, is reprehensible.

Israeli has engaged in war crimes, meanwhile this week the Iranian Ambassador to Ireland called for Israeli's complete destruction.

Theres no easy solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and trying to paint one side as the goodies and the others as the baddies does a disservice to any attempt to bring peace and stability to the region.

Agreed

Diogenes

,8,1 wrote: »

Why bomb the USS Liberty? Means to wider geo-political ends. (Granted the USS Liberty bombing was a very botched effort.)

Alternatively the USS liberty was a case of blue on blue friendly fire.

I hasten to add that you are ascribing guilt to a "very botched effort" to the same people you accuse of carrying out literally the greatest crime in the world.

Outside of the how shall we say "Establishment conspiracy theory scene" (Alex Jones et al) some of us rightfully recognised that GWB is nothing but a puppet bit player.

And "how shall we say" you've avoided all the questions in my post.

But if I was to address your point, the Bush administration (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, The PNAC) were all blamed by people, like Bermas and Avery, tis nice CTers have found a new target we were wondering when you'd find an over simplistic scapegoat for all the world's ills now that Bush Administration (you'll notice how I said 'Bush Administration" and not "George W Bush") is gone.

But hey, do be a dear and answer those questions like how the makers of loose change admitted there were massive errors in their film(s), or your claims about airport security, ground zero coverups, and preplanned explosives.

Diogenes

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Agreed

Fine, but perhaps you should add some balance to your perspective then.

For example where is your evidence that Israeli, specifically, Israeli, had foreknowledge of 911 that it refused to share. I'll think you'll find that Israeli did share it's intelligence, as did several other intelligence agencies, but if you look into it, there were many different threats, to different targets, in different countries, in the months leading up to 911. There is a thing called the signal to noise ratio, it's very difficult to pick out the credible from the fiction in all the chatter. It's easy afterwards to say "Oh look there were claims that arab terrorists would use planes as weapons" but unless you release that this thread was muddled up with hundreds of other pieces of intelligence that you realise how easy it is for information to slip between the cracks.

,8,1

Why bomb the USS Liberty? Means to wider geo-political ends. (Granted the USS Liberty bombing was a very botched effort.)

Alternatively the USS liberty was a case of blue on blue friendly fire.

Hardly. Considering the duration of continued fire and the inevitable identification of the ship as one of the United States.

I hasten to add that you are ascribing guilt to a "very botched effort" to the same people you accuse of carrying out literally the greatest crime in the world.

Yes, looks like their competency level has improved. Then again, WTC was a civilian attack and resistance on many levels (airport security, target) were disabled.

But if I was to address your point, the Bush administration (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, The PNAC) were all blamed by people, like Bermas and Avery

Yes they were, but I wouldn't be in the Bermas/Avery/Jones camp of 9/11 conspiracy research.

tis nice CTers have found a new target we were wondering when you'd find an over simplistic scapegoat for all the world's ills now that Bush Administration (you'll notice how I said 'Bush Administration" and not "George W Bush") is gone.

Bit of a strawman surely. Israel has been fingered as an accomplice or lead player in the 9/11 attack for quite some time. Long before much detested GWB left office.

Diabhal Beag

T'was them aliens. ARRGH

Diogenes

,8,1 wrote: »

Hardly. Considering the duration of continued fire and the inevitable identification of the ship as one of the United States.

Would you like the extensive, list of blue on blue sustained attacks by military targets since the USS liberty? After we have GPS?

Yes, looks like their competency level has improved. Then again, WTC was a civilian attack and resistance on many levels (airport security, target) were disabled.

You keep saying things like this. Could you give examples of were security was disabled? Go on mention the sniffer dog at the WTC, or the Bush connection.

You keep implying stuff, how about you make some specific claims.

Yes they were, but I wouldn't be in the Bermas/Avery/Jones camp of 9/11 conspiracy research.

And what camp are you in then? Camp imply stuff?" Why don't you join camp "grow a pair" and say what you think happened on 911?

Bit of a strawman surely. Israel has been fingered as an accomplice or lead player in the 9/11 attack for quite some time. Long before much detested GWB left office.

Why don't you lost the evidence that accuses Israeli. There was lots of "evidence" that implicated the Bush administration, like say "The PNAC document" his "reading my pet goat".

Why don't you answer my questions in this post, and the later post, before dancing off?

Sofa_King Good

'By Way of Deception' by Victor Ostrovsky (pp. 322-5)

"October 23,1983 -- 241 Marines died when a truck packed with explosives blew up a Marine barracks at Beirut International Airport. At the same moment a similar explosion blew up a French military barracks a few kilometers away, killing 56 French troops. It was confirmed Israel knew of the attacks and suspected they engineered both of them.

In the summer of 1983, this same informant told the Mossad about a large Mercedes truck that was being fitted by the Shi'ite Muslims with spaces that could hold bombs. He said it had even larger than usual spaces for this, so that whatever it was destined for was going to be a major target. Now, the Mossad knew that, for size, there were only a few logical targets, one of which must be the U.S. compound. The question then was whether or not to warn the Americans to be on particular alert for a truck matching the description.


The decision was too important to be taken in the Beirut station, so it was passed along to Tel Aviv, where Admony, then head of Mossad, decided they would simply give the Americans the usual general warning, a vague notice that they had reason to believe someone might be planning an operation against them. But this was so general, and so commonplace, it was like sending a weather report; unlikely to raise any particular alarm or prompt increased security precautions. In the six months following receipt of this information, for example, there were more than 100 general warnings of car-bomb attacks "

Diogenes wrote: »

a thing called the signal to noise ratio

". One more would not heighten U.S. concerns or surveillance.


Admony, in refusing to give the Americans specific information on the truck, said, "No, we're not there to protect Americans. They're a big country. Send only the regular information."

At the same time, however, all Israeli installations were given the specific details and warned to watch for a truck matching the description of the Mercedes.


At 6:20 a.m. on October 23, 1983, a large Mercedes truck approached the Beirut airport, passing well within sight of Israeli sentries in their nearby base, going through a Lebanese.army checkpoint, and turning left into the parking lot. A U.S. Marine guard reported with alarm that the truck was gathering speed, but before he could do anything, the truck roared toward the entrance of the four-story reinforced concrete Aviation Safety Building, used as headquarters for the Eighth Marine Battalion, crashing through a wrought-iron pate, hitting the sand-bagged guard post, smashing through another barrier, and ramming over a wall of sandbags into the lobby, exploding with such a terrific force that the building was instantly reduced to rubble.


A few minutes later, another truck smashed into the French paratroopers' headquarters at Bir Hason, a seafront residential neighborhood just two miles from the U.S. compound, hitting it with such an impact that it moved the entire building 30 feet and killed 58 soldiers.
The loss of 241 U.S. Marines, most of them still sleeping in their cots at the time of the suicide mission, was the highest single-day death toll for the Americans since 246 died throughout Vietnam at the start of the Tet offensive on January 13,1968.


Within days, the Israelis passed along to the CIA the names of 13 people who they said were connected to the bombing deaths of the U.S. Marines and French paratroopers, a list including Syrian intelligence, Iranians in Damascus, and Shi'ite Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah.


At Mossad headquarters, there was a sigh of relief that it wasn't us who got hit. It was seen as a small incident so far as the Mossad was concerned -- that we had stumbled over it and wouldn't tell anybody. The problem was if we had leaked information and it was traced back, our informant would have been killed. The next time, we wouldn't know if we were on the hit list.


The general attitude about the Americans was: "Hey, they wanted to stick their nose into this Lebanon thing, let them pay the price.""

Sofa_King Good

That was from Ex Mossad Whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky's Book By Way Of Deception. Which by the way is Hebrew for Mossad.

It demonstrates the mentality of the intelligence services at least towards their "allies" and why they don't share all of their information.

K-9

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

That was from Ex Mossad Whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky's Book By Way Of Deception. Which by the way is Hebrew for Mossad.

It demonstrates the mentality of the intelligence services at least towards their "allies" and why they don't share all of their information.

Ah now mate, now your onto something, stick to Mossad, forget the Israeli thing.

There's a reason they are considered the best secret service in the world.

Ps. Do your thing and research Mossad. You'll convince a lot of people then!

Kama

Israeli has engaged in war crimes, meanwhile this week the Iranian Ambassador to Ireland called for Israeli's complete destruction.

The link has no directly attributed quote; the 'wipe off the map' quotation initially was attributed to Ahmenijad, and in the original Persian was een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad), or''The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must [vanish from] the page of time''

To call this an existential threat to Israel is to conflate the pre-eminence of Zionism as the only true representation of Israel, rather than a political trend or ideology within it. It is specified that its focus is the regime, but is spun in the West as 'Israel' with a annihilationist and sensationalist interpretation. This is arguably incorrect, although Ahmenijad loves baiting; he has no real control of foreign policy, but gets great domestic mileage out of taunting, which our media consumes with joy.

It's unfortunate that we accept a media operating this way; but then news is a product in a competitie marketplace, and subtlety or accuracy is less a priority. Note Iranian diplomats explication of the comment:

SOLTANIEH: I think I've already answered to you. If Israel is a synonym and will give the indication of Zionism mentality, no. But if you are going to conclude that we have said the people there have to be removed or they have to be massacred or so, this is fabricated, unfortunate selective approach to what the mentality and policy of Islamic Republic of Iran is. I have to correct, and I did so.

or Manouchehr Mottaki, to the EU:

"How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize legally this regime,"

Just doesn't work as well as a good soundbite, does it? Unfortunately, it makes more sense than most of the pronouncements of our political classes. Though we'll see with Mitchell, I remain hopeful. It's not something which is going to be solved; but as this country knows nowhere near as bad is as much as you should expect, and be happy for it.

Btw if anyone likes games, PeaceMaker is worth checking out for those who know 'how it could all be better if you only...'.

Sofa_King Good

Diogenes wrote: »

Alternatively the USS liberty was a case of blue on blue friendly fire.

Thats just not the case. Former US ambassador Dwight Porter revealed in 1991 that his office in Beirut had intercepted radio transmissions from the IDF pilots and their commanders and they had full knowledge they were attacking an American ship and American Navy men.

(Compare the reaction to the Gulf of Tonkin incident.)

That is without mentioning the fact that the ship was clearly marked and the biggest giveaway


I
I
I
And that is without going into further evidence. Without expanding on Mossad's political assasinations, the Lavon affair, the ongoing stealing of US military secrets, the Mossad were even in the news this week; an alleged "ex" member was arrested as the mastermind for Stock Exchange fraud.

Mahatma coat

One poster in particular is skirtin close to a ban for inflamatory language and Personal attacks so far.

why is it almost impossible to discuss the Middle East in a civil and adult manner, oh yeah Lizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzards

Mossad is where its at alright lads, however discussions of this nature run the risk of gettin the site into trouble, so be careful in what ye say OK

bonkey

Mahatma coat wrote: »

why is it almost impossible to discuss the Middle East in a civil and adult manner,

More to the point...if the OP or anyone wants to discuss the Middle East, then they should start a thread to that effect.

This thread was apparently started to discuss who carried out the atrocities of September 11, 2001. If anyone - including the OP - wants to discuss something else, may I suggest that they take it to a seperate thread. If they want to discuss Middle Eastern Politics, then may I suggest that they are in completely the wrong forum.

,8,1 wrote:

It's interesting for Israel to appear right across the board in international opinion on 9/11

Is it? Look more closely at the figures. Look really closely at the figures for China and Taiwan specifically. What percent is given for Israel for each of those? Zero.

What's perhaps just as interesting is that if we look at the figures for the poll , we see that the "other" was actually two categories, one of which was "Other arabs / Saudis / Egyptians", which was answered with a non-zero score in all but one nation.

We also see that France answered 4% to "other arab...", 3% to "other", and that the figure for Israel is missing but by simple maths should be 0. This, however, is misrepresented on the OP's chart as being 7% Israel, and 0% other.

Moving on, we should also note that overall, the Israeli answer averaged a 7% score, which seems significant. If we look at that more closely, though, we find that its mostly due to three nations who we can say are not entirely unbiased when it comes to Israel - Palestine, Egypt and Jordan with 19%, 43% and 31% respectively. If we excluded those nations, then Israel about 1.5% overall, with 3 of the remaining 14 nations coming in 0%. Of these, the highest (5%) is also a predominantly Muslim nation.

I also like the wording on the Wikipedia page....after offering 46%, 15%, 7% and 7% for Al Qaeda, the US, Israel and other, they give "and only one in four" for the don't know response. Only one in four is 25%....the second largest group in the chart.

So the actual figures, ranked in order of popularity are :

46% : Al Qaeda / Bin Laden / Islamic Extremists
25% : Don't know
15% : US Government
7% : Israel
4% : Other
3% : Other Arabs / Saudis / Egyptians

bonkey

,8,1 wrote:

It's interesting for Israel to appear right across the board in international opinion on 9/11. Seeing as: Israel is never implicated in the mainstream media, by our politicians or even by the majority of the 9/11 truth community.

,8,1 wrote:

Israel has been fingered as an accomplice or lead player in the 9/11 attack for quite some time.

YOu seem to be changing your story here.

TBH, this is beginning to look more and more like a thinly-veiled anti-Israeli thread to me, rather than what it claims to be in the thread topic.

I'm not going to lock it yet, so that people have the chance to prove me wrong.

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

One poster in particular is skirtin close to a ban for inflamatory language and Personal attacks so far.

why is it almost impossible to discuss the Middle East in a civil and adult manner, oh yeah Lizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzards

Mossad is where its at alright lads, however discussions of this nature run the risk of gettin the site into trouble, so be careful in what ye say OK

As a mod you shouldn't make thinly veiled threats, and give an out and out warning. Who is this poster and why should they be named in particular.

bonkey wrote:

TBH, this is beginning to look more and more like a thinly-veiled anti-Israeli thread to me, rather than what it claims to be in the thread topic.

To call a spade a spade 90% of all threads running in this forum have had a anti jewish theme since we've changed management around here.

Diogenes

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Thats just not the case. Former US ambassador Dwight Porter revealed in 1991 that his office in Beirut had intercepted radio transmissions from the IDF pilots and their commanders and they had full knowledge they were attacking an American ship and American Navy men.

Could you just for ****s and giggles explain what possible motivation the IDF had to launch an intential sustained attack on their most important ally in the middle of a war for their survival?

Also if this was some evil jew conspiracy theory why would Israeli immediately after the attack, admit complete responsibility?

It's a retarded conspiracy theory.

(Compare the reaction to the Gulf of Tonkin incident.)

What does that have to do with the price of cheese?

That is without mentioning the fact that the ship was clearly marked and the biggest giveaway


I
I
I

See above. The US have killed dozens of friendly units in blue on blue attacks despite being clearly marked as friendly units. You seem fond of mentioning the Gulf Of Tonkin, perhaps you have seen the Robert Mc Namara documentary, the fog of war?

It's entirely possible that several units in the area clearly identified the ship as a US ship, but in the confusion of warfare it was mistaken. But if you can give me an explanition as to the motive, and why Israeli immediately took full responsibility and paid millions of dollars in compensation I'd love to hear it.

is without going into further evidence. Without expanding on Mossad's political assasinations, the Lavon affair, the ongoing stealing of US military secrets, the Mossad were even in the news this week; an alleged "ex" member was arrested as the mastermind for Stock Exchange fraud.

Ah yes, if he's jewish, claim he's a zionist mossad agent. For someone who claims to agree that the the Israeli/Palestinian issue is too complex to blame one side, you're pretty quick off the mark to blame the jews for, well pretty much all the world's ills.

meglome

I get the whiff of 'the jews' dunnit and that seems to have been the point of this whole thread. Seemingly I'm an apologist for Israel since, silly me, there's no evidence they were behind 9/11 and so I don't think they did it. There's plenty to point the finger at Israel for just not 9/11. If no one can come up any relevant facts to support this rubbish then I suggest this thread be closed.

meglome

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting this.

Again nobody is suggesting this

No


He is not an Israeli as suggested by the OP, but he is an obvious zionist. Do you even know what a zionist is?

He did gain personally. ever heard of insurance

I didn't vote but if I did it would have been don't know as I don't think for me it has been proven conclusively either way, but to suggest that there are no links between the attacks and Israel is ridiculous in my opinion. I'm not saying they did it either. And to infer that exploring these links is anti-semitic is a weak defence in my view.

But this is the whole point, we're using the fact that if any Jew or Israeli was involved in any company with any slight significance to New York security or the towers as actual proof they were involved in 9/11. This isn't proof in any way, shape or form and stinks of racism or bigotry. This only seems to happen with Jewish people, I wonder why that is?

It's laughable really, the suggestion seems to be that if an Israeli company runs security at JFK (haven't checked this but let's assume it's true) and therefore this is proof they were involved in 9/11. What about any Arab owned company? And I mean it's a fact that any foreign owned company in any country always use their own people and don't hire the locals at all, right? :rolleyes:

bonkey

Diogenes wrote: »

To call a spade a spade 90% of all threads running in this forum have had a anti jewish theme since we've changed management around here.

I don't believe thats accurate.

Given that you're a great fan of calling for evidence, though, I'm sure you've got a list handy of every thread that has been active since myself and MC became mods, broken into two lists, clearly showing this proportion.

Diogenes

bonkey wrote: »

I don't believe thats accurate.

Given that you're a great fan of calling for evidence, though, I'm sure you've got a list handy of every thread that has been active since myself and MC became mods, broken into two lists, clearly showing this proportion.

Well I'd like to, but one of our new Mods has a habit of deleting threads that expose his racism. Which would skew this statistic.

Happy Monday

Mahatma coat wrote: »

One poster in particular is skirtin close to a ban for inflamatory language and Personal attacks so far.

I think we have a right to know who this is.
I mean please don't make the charge and then not identify the 'culprit'.
This would him or her to tone their views accordingly.

bonkey

Folks...

I've already asked that we get back on topic.

Arguing over moderators posts / actions is not the topic of this thread.

Last chance.

Sofa_King Good

Diogenes wrote: »

It's entirely possible that several units in the area clearly identified the ship as a US ship, but in the confusion of warfare it was mistaken. But if you can give me an explanition as to the motive, and why Israeli immediately took full responsibility and paid millions of dollars in compensation I'd love to hear it.

Didn't say it wasn't possible. However you suggest it is impossible.

Regarding motive and compensation here is a USS Libery Veterans association member (if that is good enough for you):

Also, US aid (Liberty survivors tax dollors) to Israel just increased by however millions it was per year to compensate.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEED91730F932A2575BC0A96E948260

Diogenes wrote: »

Ah yes, if he's jewish, claim he's a zionist mossad agent. For someone who claims to agree that the the Israeli/Palestinian issue is too complex to blame one side, you're pretty quick off the mark to blame the jews for, well pretty much all the world's ills.

I would think it would be a fair assumption to say that a high proportion of mossad would have some zionist ideals, though I never mentioned this before.

In fact I never even mentioned he was Jewish, so that whole comment is baseless.

I said he was alleged "ex" Mossad agent as in the article here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1130402/Spanish-police-arrest-massive-420m-London-Stock-Exchange-fraud.html

Does this reporter blame Israel for "all the worlds ills"?

bonkey

Thread locked.