Is the dole too generous?

Mena

boogyboogy wrote: »

Well I am sick of people saying 'the dole isn't enough if you have to pay a mortgage'-If you don't have a JOB what in the name of god gives you any expectation you should own your own house???I am currently employed yes but I can tell you one thing beggers can't be choosers and if you want money for free then be happy with what you get. If you do want more and feel you need to own your house then go and work in supermacs, I am sure if Irish people got off their high horses then they would be able to find jobs. Personally I would clean gutters to put food on the table for my family if it came to it and who knows maybe it will but if it does I won't be putting any demands on our country to pay my way or the government to magically privide a job for me in this GLOBAL economic crisis.

That's the thing, it's not free money. JB comes from your PRSI contributions, ergo you've already paid for this benefit and signing on allows you to claim it. It's your money.

JA is a different story altogether.

With regards to taking any job available, short of lying on a CV and not providing any references, all you tend to get is "we're sorry, you're overqualified".

Everybody's situation is unique. You can't justify a blanket statement such as "the dole is too much". For some it is, for other's it just slows, mildly, the rapid descent into financial crisis.

workaccount

boogyboogy wrote: »

Well I am sick of people saying 'the dole isn't enough if you have to pay a mortgage'-If you don't have a JOB what in the name of god gives you any expectation you should own your own house???I am currently employed yes but I can tell you one thing beggers can't be choosers and if you want money for free then be happy with what you get. If you do want more and feel you need to own your house then go and work in supermacs, I am sure if Irish people got off their high horses then they would be able to find jobs. Personally I would clean gutters to put food on the table for my family if it came to it and who knows maybe it will but if it does I won't be putting any demands on our country to pay my way or the government to magically privide a job for me in this GLOBAL economic crisis.

Well I wouldn't call them beggers - alot of them have paid alot of tax during their working life and deserve to be helped out to a certain extent.

Saruman

Im sure someone has brought it up but i can not read every post.
The Dole is too much for someone who has no bills to pay or lives at home like a lot of people on the first page seem to be saying.

However for someone who has a mortgage never mind kids and other loands, Just a mortgage on its own. €200 per week would not be enough to pay that let alone pay for anything else.

As someone who has been forced to take the dole because im now on a three day week, its a shock how little money the dole is. I kow its not supposed to be too generous.

The difference is this. If you are used to nothing and do not have debts then €200 a week is more than you need and especially if you live at home with the parents.

However if you have come from a decent paying job and have a mortgage, car loan, personal and especially if you have the added expense of kids then the dole will not even begin to cover your expense and you risk losing your home etc.

So in some ways the dole is too much, in other ways its not enough by far. It all depends on the recipient.

If i could get another job, i would. Even a part time job for the other two days... It seems the jobs are not out there. Plenty of recruiters like RealTime posting jobs that do not exist to get people on their books but very few actual jobs. At least in an area that i can work in.

As for part time, Seems to be even harder as employers want you available all week and do not seem to want someone only available on two set days a week.

catch 22 situation.

Right now im ok as my wife still works full time so we can get by. If she lost her job though we would be screwed as the dole would not cover us.

boogyboogy wrote: »

Well I am sick of people saying 'the dole isn't enough if you have to pay a mortgage'-If you don't have a JOB what in the name of god gives you any expectation you should own your own house???

What a stupid statement. That only works if you have no job and try to buy a house! If you have had a house for years and been paying off your mortgage, and all your taxes because you have worked your entire adult life.... to say that if someone loses a job through no fault of their own, then they are no longer entitled to have a house is not only stupid.. its Moronic!!!

As someone else said... its not FREE money, its MY money, its your money... we have paid for it with PRSI etc for years and when its time to claim off the social insurance fund if you need to then a guarantee you will do so.

workaccount

Saruman wrote: »

What a stupid statement. That only works if you have no job and try to buy a house! If you have had a house for years and been paying off your mortgage, and all your taxes because you have worked your entire adult life.... to say that if someone loses a job through no fault of their own, then they are no longer entitled to have a house is not only stupid.. its Moronic!!!

What about insurance for the mortgage though?

Saruman

What insurance for the mortgage? Unless i or my wife die, then that will never be claimed.

workaccount

Saruman wrote: »

What insurance for the mortgage? Unless i or my wife die, then that will never be claimed.

Insurance to pay the monthly payments incase you lose your job?

It seems to me that people skimp on this cost and then expect the dole to be their insurance.

http://www.firstactive.ie/insurance/mortage_repayment_protector/features_benefits/index.aspx

Mena

workaccount wrote: »

Insurance to pay the monthly payments incase you lose your job?

It seems to me that people skimp on this cost and then expect the dole to be their insurance.

You do realise these types of insurance rarely pay out. It's like the payment protection **cough** scam **cough** that credit card providers encourage you to take out. Ludicrous fee and then when you try to avail of it, there are a million and one reasons for them not to pay out.

Saruman

Does that exist? I have never in my life heard of such a thing.
Are you maybe confusing it with income protection? If so stop wasting peoples time and research what that covers... It only covers illness etc... Losing your job means nothing and so you get nothing.

unemployed_dub

Yearly cost of keeping a person on the dole .... €10,608
Yearly cost of keeping a person in Portlaoise Prison..... €240,000
Yearly cost of keeping the average prisoner ..... €98,000

tallaghtoutlaws

workaccount wrote: »

Insurance to pay the monthly payments incase you lose your job?

It seems to me that people skimp on this cost and then expect the dole to be their insurance.

http://www.firstactive.ie/insurance/mortage_repayment_protector/features_benefits/index.aspx

To put your example to test I called my bank about my insurance and they told me that I would be wastig my time claiming off the insurance for my mortgage unless i was ill and unable to work. If im made redundant and now out of work that means fook all to them.

workaccount I dont know what your beef is. You are hell bent on trying to sprout somewhat ridiculous arguments to try justify your opinion. Not everybody in life is as lucky as others. Like most on here I have bills, phone, car, loans due to trying to start a family etc etc. If you think that is living over my means thats your opinion but dont forget both rent and mortgages are above most peoples means anyways but its neccessary for those who want to start a family.You are hardly going to get married and have kids and still live with your parents now are you. And regardless of peoples wage they will go down the road of independant lifestyle with their spouse.

But the main fact is if you are working for so long and paying your taxes and stamps you deserve the dole if you are suddenly let go end off. I would love you to walk into a dole office full of people affected by the current recession and sprout your views and see how many of them agree with you.

Its not our fault there are pure wasters on the dole who are quite happy to sit at home in their parents house and not work as the dole suits them more than a job. But don't tar all of us with the same brush. Because by arguing with most on here thats what you are doing in fairness.

Daroxtar

workaccount wrote: »

What about insurance for the mortgage though?

i see you took your figures down... why was that now? were you afraid they wouldnt stand up to further scrutiny? i'm glad i had them saved.
you keep on about insurance. well you cant get a mortgage without insurance so IMO the basis of your point is incredibly uninformed . also, as was mentioned above, they wont pay out unless you die or become permanantly incapacitated.
i never said the dole should pay my mortgage. i said it was not enough to provide any standard of life if you have a mortgage to pay.
you also seem to imply that i dont deserve to have kids because i lost my job. thats along the lines of some of the social policies i heard coming from the rheinland circa 1939.
anyway, why dont you put your money where your mouth is and quit your job. you seem to have all the answers so it should be no problem for you. aftere all, if you can survive so well and even save, then the only thing keepin you working is pure filthy greed, possibly the worst of all human traits and the reason the worlds economies are collapsing.
why not pm me your bosses details and let me have a chat with him about taking your job? after all you dont need it. i'll go and hold my breath while i wait for details.

workaccount

Daroxtar wrote: »

i see you took your figures down... why was that now? were you afraid they wouldnt stand up to further scrutiny? i'm glad i had them saved.
you keep on about insurance. well you cant get a mortgage without insurance so IMO the basis of your point is incredibly uninformed . also, as was mentioned above, they wont pay out unless you die or become permanantly incapacitated.
i never said the dole should pay my mortgage. i said it was not enough to provide any standard of life if you have a mortgage to pay.
you also seem to imply that i dont deserve to have kids because i lost my job. thats along the lines of some of the social policies i heard coming from the rheinland circa 1939.
anyway, why dont you put your money where your mouth is and quit your job. you seem to have all the answers so it should be no problem for you. aftere all, if you can survive so well and even save, then the only thing keepin you working is pure filthy greed, possibly the worst of all human traits and the reason the worlds economies are collapsing.
why not pm me your bosses details and let me have a chat with him about taking your job? after all you dont need it. i'll go and hold my breath while i wait for details.

I took it down because I wanted to say something else. It was hardly a massive deal that I was out by 80 or so euro and I said I could cut down my expenses more.


I'm not a zealot either and have said previously that everyones situation is different. You pay to the social fund anyway so you deserve it (I hadn't realised that was what prsi is for so it was a big turning point for me) - some people don't and they don't deserve it. You probably need more money than I do. Some people are living beyond their means and some are not. As someone else has pointed out I suppose it's not an across board cut that's required.

puntosporting

Well my argument is the dole is not to much for me!
I dont expect it to pay my mortgage but i would argue the point that whats available for me personnaly is not too much simple as that!

Daroxtar

i think that what nearly everyone here would agree on is that while the state should not cover people who make no contribution the state should also make sure that people who have given huge amounts in taxes through income tax, prsi and stamp duty do not lose their homes if they are out of work.

spank_inferno

In so far as I know the "income protect" insurance product doesnt cover redundancy, rather just serious injury or illness.

If it did cover redundancy I'd imagine the premium would be pretty high!

Daroxtar

Daroxtar wrote: »

i think that what nearly everyone here would agree on is that while the state should not cover people who make no contribution the state should also make sure that people who have given huge amounts in taxes through income tax, prsi and stamp duty do not lose their homes if they are out of work.

This would honestly be the best route. If only we had a politician with balls enough to say it.

If someone has proven themselves to be hard working, and to want to work, I would have no problem with them getting 300-350 a week(on a sliding scale depending on length of unemployment) just as long as people who have proven themselves to be exactly the opposite end up reduced to 75-100 a week. - also on a sliding scale, the bottom of which would be food stamps.

Daroxtar

exactly. it could be set at say, 25% of the length of your contribution. not a big ask as most people who were genuine would be trying to find work elsewhere quickly anyway.

puntosporting

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

This would honestly be the best route. If only we had a politician with balls enough to say it.

If someone has proven themselves to be hard working, and to want to work, I would have no problem with them getting 300-350 a week(on a sliding scale depending on length of unemployment) just as long as people who have proven themselves to be exactly the opposite end up reduced to 75-100 a week. - also on a sliding scale, the bottom of which would be food stamps.

That system would be Fairer!
Aslong as someone is activley seeking to be reemployed than they should at least be on 200 euro a week!
I personnaly dont plan being out of work for any length of time and would rather not have o claim any social welfare payments but when the time comes if jobs are not their ill have no choice!

Daithinski

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

If someone has proven themselves to be hard working, and to want to work, I would have no problem with them getting 300-350 a week(on a sliding scale depending on length of unemployment) just as long as people who have proven themselves to be exactly the opposite end up reduced to 75-100 a week. - also on a sliding scale, the bottom of which would be food stamps.

How in the name of all that is holy do you prove to a social welfare official that you are hard working? Considering you will only be speaking to them if you don't have a job??

That plan is a load of unworkable nonsense.

Naz_st

Jaysus I haven't posted on here in ages, but stumbled across this thread having just read the thread about ex IFSRA boss Neary getting a 630k golden handshake despite being as useful as a one legged man at an arse kicking competition.

It's strange going from reading about someone who gets 630k (and then 140k per year pension) to discussing inflated dole payments - just goes to show that this government can f**k up equally at both ends of the scale...

I don't think the dole should ever be expected to "cover" costs when someone gets made redundent so that whole line of argument seems flawed. e.g. it costs me x for y every month, therefore I couldn't live off 204. But that's not the point; you shouldn't be able to cover your monthly outgoings with the dole - it should be a stop gap solution while a new job is found (granted that's easier said than done right now). On the other hand, anyone who has paid significantly into PRSI through years of employment should be able to get enough from the dole to tide them over until they find a new job (they've "paid for it" already after all) so I've no problem with them getting the current amount, or even more initially. So the only issue is that those people who have been on the dole for years and show no motivation to get off the dole. In that case they should be "incentivised" to get a job by reducing their monthly payment.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

This would honestly be the best route. If only we had a politician with balls enough to say it.

If someone has proven themselves to be hard working, and to want to work, I would have no problem with them getting 300-350 a week(on a sliding scale depending on length of unemployment) just as long as people who have proven themselves to be exactly the opposite end up reduced to 75-100 a week. - also on a sliding scale, the bottom of which would be food stamps.

So I pretty much agree with the proposed above.

Daithinski wrote: »

How in the name of all that is holy do you prove to a social welfare official that you are hard working? Considering you will only be speaking to them if you don't have a job??

That plan is a load of unworkable nonsense.

"Hard-working" could just be inferred by totalling up the previous 5 years PRSI contributions...

Paddy Samurai

I do'nt think its too generous,but i do think we need more controls and investigating officers.Also people on extended dole(say over 1 year) should have to take part in government programmes to improve their communities etc.like in germany(see link)http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/05/business/worldbusiness/05euro.html

nice_guy80

18 months is enough for anyone on the dole

after make them attend training courses or do community work for their dole money

Chauncey_freak

It was only after going on the dole that i realised that most/all of the money goes back into the economy - not only through the stuff you buy (supporting businesses) but tax.

More than a fifth of dole goes right back to Cowen through VAT - more if you buy cigs and alcohol.

Is this just sour grapes?

yoshytoshy

But the money a person on the dole gets ,means less money for pensions and investment in infrastructure.
Being on the dole has so many negative effects on other things ,it costs far more than the amount thats paid out.

Lobelia Overhill

FreedomJoe wrote: »

The dole isn't the problem.

The problem is the lack of services and care for people on the dole.

Someone can be on the dole in this country and not actually see a government official in relation to finding work!

The only thing required is for them to sign on once a month, and at Christmas time once over 2 months!

We need to introduce a system for all people on the dole and not just new applicants where you are required to sign on every two weeks in a office where you meet with an official who asks you what you have been doing for work, what other jobs are available and what training they can offer.

If you fail to meet the requirements then you lose the dole.

That's the way the dole was when I was signing on in the 90s. I had to sign on every Thursday morning and be actively seeking a job in order to qualify.

Tomatohead

The dole is so generous in Ireland that people can be better off financially not taking a paid job, as they would lose their many other 'entitlements'.

Providing they have no serious mental or physical disabilities, what about working for their weekly pay ? Community work, or something that instils a work ethic.

I realise there are people who can barely look after themselves and for whom finding employment would be very difficult, but there is also a lot of work - shy leeches who are draining the system.

The welfare trap is not healthy for the individuals or for society as a whole. The dole is no good for the soul.

Rant over.

meditraitor

Tomatohead wrote: »

The welfare trap is not healthy for the individuals or for society as a whole. The dole is no good for the soul.

Rant over.

And cutting welfare to british levels will improve the health of the individuals and society as a whole?

Even improve the soul?

Crazy Horse 6

Tomatohead wrote: »

The dole is so generous in Ireland that people can be better off financially not taking a paid job, as they would lose their many other 'entitlements'.

Providing they have no serious mental or physical disabilities, what about working for their weekly pay ? Community work, or something that instils a work ethic.

I realise there are people who can barely look after themselves and for whom finding employment would be very difficult, but there is also a lot of work - shy leeches who are draining the system.

The welfare trap is not healthy for the individuals or for society as a whole. The dole is no good for the soul.

Rant over.

I agree let's cut the dole to the same levels as the UK, but first lets put all the same services in place for those people so they can get by.

RandolphEsq

It's not the dole that is the problem, but the benefits and allowances that people get. The dole itself is at an adequate level but the benefits need to be severely cut back. To attend a FÁS course and be in receipt of dole, one is entitled to travel expenses (regardless of whether it costs to travel or not), heavily subsidised food there, a financial benefit for attending the course (should be mandatory anyway if you are able-bodied), which adds up to quite a lot (can't think of other benefits off the top of my head for attending one of these courses). The speed of teaching is painfully slow and relaxed. I won't even touch single mothers and what they receive in benefits. It is too easy to receive benefits and people are treated like children the way the State seems to provide for them.

Tomatohead

I didn't say anything about reducing the dole to UK rates, but what Randolph said:

It is too easy to receive benefits and people are treated like children the way the State seems to provide for them.

Now that you mention it, yes it would be hugely character building, and good for the soul, if one finds out that one's payment is stopped / going to be stopped, that would force the individual to take any kind of work available and thus contribute to society.

I would like to see less of a nanny state and more tough decision- making.