Is the dole too generous?

Daithinski

hobochris wrote: »

The dole should be at a level where people on it can just about live. If they want more money then they should get a job.

Two things,

1. The dole is at that level. The rent allowance does not cover the full rent amount. 50 - 100 per week has to be paid out of the dole money of 200.

That leaves 100-150 for everything else. Including all food, household bills, Heating, electric, phone. Which are expensive.

But maybe all unemployed people should eat nothing but potatoes bought in bulk and drink tap water, and sit huddled in a duvet as they sit in the dark?

2. If you want more money - in this economy - you will not get this by "getting a job". Unless you live with your parents paying for the cost of living in Ireland is a bit tricky on 8.65 per hour.

I can only assume you live your parents and have no idea of the cost of living in the real world.

thebman

on point 1 the dole is too generous.

The rent allowance isn't generous enough is basically what your getting at.

Rent Allowance should be based on average regional rent rather than a flat rate that isn't enough. So if your rent is low, you don't get a lot of extra cash each month to spend.

Realistically the dole is too high and rent allowance is too low. Your should get enough rent allowance to cover your rent and then reduce the dole by 50 euro or so per person at least (you could base this on circumstances such as family kids, two parents out of work etc.. so people that need more can get more).

thesimpsonsfan

Volthar wrote: »

In some countries you have to apply for jobs and go for job interviews several times a week then show a proof (like signed schedule) before you can collect your dole. Often there are couple of interviews a day so job seeking turns into real job SW office will also search for a job for you and you can not refuse to go for job interviews they schedule for you. They will also ask recruiters for some feedback about your interviews (just to make sure that you are really trying to get a job). If you fail to attend particular number of interviews or they can prove that you are doing your best to not get a job you will loose your dole. The only problem with this system is HUGE bureaucracy and as result it causes increased expenses and possibility of corruption. My second thought is that maybe FAS and SW can join their forces and introduce similar system.

I dont want a job

workaccount

Some sense in this thread and some nonsense.

If I was on the dole I'd be able to run my car, pay my rent and save around 200 euro a month! That's with 70 euro for food every week (more than enough for most normal people) and NTL and ESB split between 4 people.

The people who are in trouble have the credit card bills, the car loans and the mortgages - living above your means.

workaccount

Daithinski wrote: »

Two things,

1. The dole is at that level. The rent allowance does not cover the full rent amount. 50 - 100 per week has to be paid out of the dole money of 200.

That leaves 100-150 for everything else. Including all food, household bills, Heating, electric, phone. Which are expensive.

But maybe all unemployed people should eat nothing but potatoes bought in bulk and drink tap water, and sit huddled in a duvet as they sit in the dark?

2. If you want more money - in this economy - you will not get this by "getting a job". Unless you live with your parents paying for the cost of living in Ireland is a bit tricky on 8.65 per hour.

I can only assume you live your parents and have no idea of the cost of living in the real world.

Firstly I live in the real world.

1) Plenty of money to live from - you certainly don't need to eat nothing but potatoes and tap water. Try budgeting and looking at your costs. If you have a decent car and car loan then sell it - why should the tax payer have to pay for that?

2) If you want more money get a right job - if you need to study and get certification then do it - don't be complaining that you can only get 8.65 as a maximum wage doing anything in Ireland. You get paid 8.65 because your not worth much more.

puntosporting

workaccount wrote: »

Some sense in this thread and some nonsense.

If I was on the dole I'd be able to run my car, pay my rent and save around 200 euro a month! That's with 70 euro for food every week (more than enough for most normal people) and NTL and ESB split between 4 people.

The people who are in trouble have the credit card bills, the car loans and the mortgages - living above your means.

So im working in full time employment for 11 years since i left school after doing my leaving cert!
Im gonna be made redundant this summer,not my faullt im a Dell employee!
Im have an average mortgage to pay about 700 month!
Should i not have gone out and bought a house while in secure employment even do i have two small children and want to support my family in the right way? Was i living above my means?
So by trying to grow a family your living ABOVE YOUR MEANS?

workaccount

puntosporting wrote: »

So im working in full time employment for 11 years since i left school after doing my leaving cert!
Im gonna be made redundant this summer,not my faullt im a Dell employee!
Im have an average mortgage to pay about 700 month!
Should i not have gone out and bought a house while in secure employment even do i have two small children and want to support my family in the right way? Was i living above my means?
So by trying to grow a family your living ABOVE YOUR MEANS?

You should be getting child allowance aswell and the father of your kids should be paying money.

You should have insurance for the mortgage.

You should have thought "well what happens if I lose my job before buying a house and having kids?" and have a fund to last you a long while - perhaps a year on minimal expenses plus the dole.

Break it down
Clothes
Food
School books
Bus fares
If it adds up to 500 euro a month then you need a rainy day fund of 6k to last one year - security and peace of mind for that year and as a bonus you will have 100 euro extra a week from the dole. In that year you can look for work or perhaps train for a new type of job. This recession is going to blow over.


I'm sorry for your situation but you shouldn't expect the dole (my tax money) to pay for your house. The reality is that the goverment is going to come looking for more money off me when I think they could get alot of it from the dole fund.

Macha

puntosporting wrote: »

Im have an average mortgage to pay about 700 month!
Should i not have gone out and bought a house while in secure employment even do i have two small children and want to support my family in the right way? Was i living above my means?

Nobody put a gun to your head and made you buy a house. I don't own a house because I believed that I couldn't afford one.

Why should tax money now go to bail you out? You're not going to be on the streets, you're going to be renting.

puntosporting

taconnol wrote: »

Nobody put a gun to your head and made you buy a house. I don't own a house because I believed that I couldn't afford one.

Why should tax money now go to bail you out? You're not going to be on the streets, you're going to be renting.

Im the father in this situation!
And the tax money you speak off is money which i have been contributing into since the day i left school,Tax money which i paid into!
Ill be claiming back my stamps which im entitled too!
Ill be looking for work but the way things are at the moment its not too bright!
So now we are saying that no one should buy a house ever,after all no job is 100% safe these days?
And yes i have a contingency you seem to pressume a lot !

K-9

puntosporting wrote: »

Im have an average mortgage to pay about 700 month!

In fairness, that isn't an extravagant mortgage.

Macha

puntosporting wrote: »

Im the father in this situation!

So?

puntosporting wrote: »

And the tax money you speak off is money which i have been contributing into since the day i left school,Tax money which i paid into!
Ill be claiming back my stamps which im entitled too!

That's fine - if it covers your mortgage. If it doesn't, tough.

puntosporting wrote: »

Ill be looking for work but the way things are at the moment its not too bright!

I hear you.

puntosporting wrote: »

So now we are saying that no one should buy a house ever,after all no job is 100% safe these days?

I'm saying that taking out a mortgage, or any big loan, is a risk. It's the risk that you took, that you would have a regular income to cover the payments for the next 30 or whatever years. The risk didn't pay off, unfortunately, but I don't think people with mortgages should get moratoriums or any bail outs. As I said earlier, if things don't work out, you won't be living on the streets, you'l be renting (shock horror..)

puntosporting wrote: »

And yes i have a contingency you seem to pressume a lot !

I don't recall saying you didn't have a contingency..But if you do, well done for thinking ahead: you're in the minority.

workaccount

puntosporting wrote: »

Im the father in this situation!
And the tax money you speak off is money which i have been contributing into since the day i left school,Tax money which i paid into!
Ill be claiming back my stamps which im entitled too!
Ill be looking for work but the way things are at the moment its not too bright!
So now we are saying that no one should buy a house ever,after all no job is 100% safe these days?
And yes i have a contingency you seem to pressume a lot !

I really don't think it's right that the dole should fund your house when you have the option of insurance! You are basically using the dole as insurance which is not what it should be for.

Daroxtar

I really think that there is a little bit of confusion here. The dole, as given to wasters and parasites who never contributed tax or prsi because they never worked is far too much. about 204 euros too much to be honest. However , stamps or benefit or whatever its called nowadays is not near enough. IMHO, after 17 years of work, anyone who has lost their job as i have should be supported by the system that they paid 1/4 of their wages into and anyone who says otherwise is a worthless sanctimonious piece of sht who deserves to lose their own job and die a miserable death in a ditch. but thats just my opinion. i offer my sincere apologies if this offends some of the afforementioned condescending prcks who seek to belittle or take away from the people who broke their bolox building up the economy and building a life for themselves and their families only to have it taken away by gimps in suits who fkd the country while lining their own pockets.

Daroxtar

workaccount wrote: »

Some sense in this thread and some nonsense.

If I was on the dole I'd be able to run my car, pay my rent and save around 200 euro a month! That's with 70 euro for food every week (more than enough for most normal people) and NTL and ESB split between 4 people.

The people who are in trouble have the credit card bills, the car loans and the mortgages - living above your means.

you would in your hole save 200 a month, unless you're still sucking tit. esb split 4ways- mammy, daddy sibling and you. some nonesense here alright from people who havent a clue

PixelTrawler

gingermut wrote: »

if the government slashed the dole money... those sponging foreigners would not have a reason to stay in Ireland any longer and the government will start to save money..... you see those fat lazy English (oh, not forgetting the Polish, Latvians, Mexicans, Jamaicans, Nigerians, Romanians, Asians) people here living the good life at the expense of the Irish tax payer... either cut there dole or deport them for being a strain on the system!!

Thats pretty shocking... how about all the people from Ireland who worked abroad for years and are doing so again...

Should they be shipped back to Ireland?

And don't forget if someone from abroad worked here and is now on the dole - they paid their PRSI, they have benefits they worked for

But this is just a troll isn't? You couldnt honestly believe that?

workaccount

Daroxtar wrote: »

you would in your hole save 200 a month, unless you're still sucking tit. esb split 4ways- mammy, daddy sibling and you. some nonesense here alright from people who havent a clue

Lets have a civil conversation please. Don't make me have to report your post.


There's some good ideas on this thread. Those that have never worked should get less etc. etc. but no matter how much tax you have paid through your life you should not expect the dole to pay for your car or house.
It's a difficult one. Some people need more money than others if child benefit doesn't cover the basics - I don't know much about child benefit. I think it's important for the country to have young people coming into the economy - things will improve.

It's also important for people to have a fund to cover themselves - alot of the people complaining about the dole not being too high will no doubt have a small rainy day fund or none at all while also having taken on the responsibility of buying houses and bringing kids into the world. As I said it's in the governments interest here to help with the kids but I have little sympathy if you didn't plan for a scenario like this.

Daroxtar

Solyad wrote: »

Thats pretty shocking... how about all the people from Ireland who worked abroad for years and are doing so again...

Should they be shipped back to Ireland?

And don't forget if someone from abroad worked here and is now on the dole - they paid their PRSI, they have benefits they worked for

But this is just a troll isn't? You couldnt honestly believe that?

it could be a troll but a lot of people do believe that. i dont, but many do. i think anyone regardless of where they come from who contributed should be looked after and those who did not should not. but there is a serious resentment out there. this country has always been incredibly racist as in the past anyone who came here was an invader. now that we're up the creek the foreign workers are an easy target to vent spleen at. dont fool yourself into thinking that angry young men are politically correct.

Havermeyer

To the OP. The dole is not too generous. Think of all the people who actually need every penny they get who are struggling to put dinner on athe table at the moment.

Sure, there are people who take advantage. But I think the people who genuinely need it should not suffer because of a few wasters. No matter how much people were getting on the dole, some people would be screwing the system.

Scofflaw

Keep it calm, people, and keep it polite. Otherwise there will be an enforced calm.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Daroxtar

workaccount wrote: »

Lets have a civil conversation please. Don't make me have to report your post.


Rent 295.
Car fuel - 20
Car insurance - 58
Food - 260
Car tax - 27
ESB - 15

Total 675.

A saving of 125 then when I do the figures up properly. That's 60 euro a week on decent food. I could save more money here and still be well fed.

How else could I reduce costs? Rent a smaller place, spend less on food, get a smaller engined car.

I'm not giving figures on what the dole should be. All I'm saying is that it should not cover expenses like houses and cars. There personal choices - we all have to eat and have shelter - this is what the dole should provide.

civility so.
first point, you boasted of being able to save 200 a month, yet now its dropped to 125 when you had to actually calculate it. i guarantee it would change again if you had to live it.
However, using your figures to apply to me,33years old, let go at christmas. Married with child on the way in 5 weeks.
1/2 of mortgage, not rent, bought 4 years ago while employed -600
petrol- 80 getting to the dole office and shops, no public transport within 10 miles and even then its too late in the morning and to early in the evening to be of use.
insurance -55
tax-27
1/2 of esb-30
food-260
total-1052.
4 weeks dole-816.
total shortfall - 236
not to mention phone bills and extra petrol expenses accrued searching for jobs

so, do you suggest i should put the house on the market which doesnt exist and move closer to the city and i doing so pay the estate agent to market it while at the same time paying rent on a cheaper flat?
that should coincide nicely with the baby arriving and the following conservative expenses
nappies- 50- unless i wrap the child in a towel
baby food- 50- breast feeding would save, but its not always possible. and i have hairy nipples
baby clothes -10- they do actually grow a bit over the first 18 years or so

WAIT, ITS ALL BECOMING CLEAR--you have inspired me, i'll ditch the missus and abandon my child. let them have the house, i'll shack up in the salvation army hostel. by only paying 100 a week maintenance for junior and eating spam and straw i'll save a fortune.
end of civilities- report all you like.

Daroxtar

Firstly, RE: Workaccount - you can apply for rent allowance so you can stop including that in your list.

Daroxtar wrote: »

However, using your figures to apply to me,33years old, let go at christmas. Married with child on the way in 5 weeks.
1/2 of mortgage, not rent, bought 4 years ago while employed -600
petrol- 80 getting to the dole office and shops, no public transport within 10 miles and even then its too late in the morning and to early in the evening to be of use.
insurance -55
tax-27
1/2 of esb-30
food-260
total-1052.
4 weeks dole-816.
total shortfall - 236
not to mention phone bills and extra petrol expenses accrued searching for jobs

Why should the dole pay for your mortgage?
Some people with big mortgages they cannot afford are going to have to bite the bullet in the next few years - which I personally think is ****ty - and sell their houses for what they can get and pay off a smaller sum to the bank while applying for some sort of council accommodation or a much cheaper place. ****ty I know but people are responsible for their own actions.

So there you go, almost 400 quid extra left over.

You'd even be able to afford a nice holiday every year!

Scofflaw

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Why should the dole pay for your mortgage?

Well, why not? Stamp duty on that mortgage helped fill the tax coffers that pay for the dole.

cordially,
Scofflaw

tallaghtoutlaws

I seriously can't believe this argument. Eh people the recession is affecting alot of people and losing your job and then trying to afford the standard lifestyle you once had:

bills dont go away when you lose a job
if you have kids they dont magically disappear when you lose your job
simple neccessities like food still have to be bought when you lose your job
if you have a phone it still needs to be paid for especially when you have to job hunt all over again or for the first time in many years.

Look simple fact I could go on but hell no the dole isnt too much. Its soo easy for folk to come on here and say it is. I bet OP you live with your parents have a job or you are student and the recession truly hasnt affected you. Are we not entitled to help by the same state we fund when we work by paying tax?

Our of my circle of friends my 10 close friends say 60% of us are now on the dole and never expected to be there and honestly all of us agree and are thankful for the 200 as it just about covers the simple things.

amacachi

As a single lad living with his parents who is on the dole, I'm the first to admit that what I'm getting is stupidly high.

The single person rate should be a lot lower, but the increase per dependant should be higher. A family with two parents and 3 kids barely gets twice what I do, how is that fair? It's a total nonsense.

Macha

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, why not? Stamp duty on that mortgage helped fill the tax coffers that pay for the dole.

cordially,
Scofflaw

People should get a certain amount of money from the dole and if that covers their mortgage then great. If it doesn't, then they can't afford the property and they should be renting. Of course, other measures like mandatory mediation should be the first step. Basically, everyone was perfectly happy to live by the markets when times were good. Why should the taxpayer come in and pay the mortages of individuals now that the markets have gone belly-up? At what stage do people take personal responsibility for their decisions?

I could equally argue that people got tax relief on their mortgage payments and that's a lot of money that didn't go into the tax coffers.

workaccount

Daroxtar wrote: »

civility so.
first point, you boasted of being able to save 200 a month, yet now its dropped to 125 when you had to actually calculate it. i guarantee it would change again if you had to live it.

It wouldn't change - this is the way I live now and have done for a long time now. If I keep these areas tight it increases my disposable income to do the things I like and invest my money.

Daroxtar wrote: »

so, do you suggest i should put the house on the market which doesnt exist and move closer to the city and i doing so pay the estate agent to market it while at the same time paying rent on a cheaper flat?

You might have to do that now but it could have been avoided if you had insurance. The dole shouldn't be your insurance.

Daroxtar wrote: »

WAIT, ITS ALL BECOMING CLEAR--you have inspired me, i'll ditch the missus and abandon my child. let them have the house, i'll shack up in the salvation army hostel. by only paying 100 a week maintenance for junior and eating spam and straw i'll save a fortune.
end of civilities- report all you like.

No you should be able to afford to live decent, be able to get around and keep yourself and your family fed - whatever all your costs are minus the mortgage payment and minus some of the costs for the child. Again having a child is another personal decision involving risk which shouldn't be completed footed by the government

Scofflaw

taconnol wrote: »

People should get a certain amount of money from the dole and if that covers their mortgage then great. If it doesn't, then they can't afford the property and they should be renting. Of course, other measures like mandatory mediation should be the first step. Basically, everyone was perfectly happy to live by the markets when times were good. Why should the taxpayer come in and pay the mortages of individuals now that the markets have gone belly-up?

There isn't some kind of line that divides taxpayers from people on the dole. Right up to the point they lost their jobs, those people were also taxpayers - why should they not be entitled to decent coverage out of the tax they paid?

taconnol wrote: »

At what stage do people take personal responsibility for their decisions?

Personal responsibility for what, exactly? For losing their jobs?

taconnol wrote: »

I could equally argue that people got tax relief on their mortgage payments and that's a lot of money that didn't go into the tax coffers.

And one could equally well argue that if the rates had been higher they'd have paid more tax. The point is the same - the dole is partly paid for by the taxes of those who are now receiving the dole. There is no dividing line - no 'them' and 'us'. Anyone who believes that those of us still in employment (or self-employment) are in some way better or more responsible than those who have lost their jobs is mistaking luck for judgement.

What it does sound like is that the dole is badly proportioned - too much for single people, too little for those with families.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Macha

Scofflaw wrote: »

There isn't some kind of line that divides taxpayers from people on the dole. Right up to the point they lost their jobs, those people were also taxpayers - why should they not be entitled to decent coverage out of the tax they paid?

I'm not arguing against decent coverage from the dole-I'm actually on the dole myself. I'm arguing against people claiming that the dole should cover their mortgages.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Personal responsibility for what, exactly? For losing their jobs?

For taking out a loan that they now cannot pay. If they cannot afford their mortage, they should be renting.

Scofflaw wrote: »

And one could equally well argue that if the rates had been higher they'd have paid more tax. The point is the same - the dole is partly paid for by the taxes of those who are now receiving the dole. There is no dividing line - no 'them' and 'us'. Anyone who believes that those of us still in employment (or self-employment) are in some way better or more responsible than those who have lost their jobs is mistaking luck for judgement.

What it does sound like is that the dole is badly proportioned - too much for single people, too little for those with families.

I agree with all this.

thebman

One thing that should really happen is rent allowance adjustment. You should get rent allowance to cover your rent and not a couple of hundred euro and pay the rest from your dole.

The Dole could then be reduced for a lot of people especially those not living in Dublin where rents are higher.

Esentially single people, living in Dublin's high rent is benefiting people elsewhere who have much lower rents but are also on the dole.

That would be the easiest, quickest and fairest way to reduce the dole. As rents are also coming down, if your rent is above the average for an area then you shouldn't get all of it in rent supplement, you should have to move to cheaper accomodation.

boogyboogy

Well I am sick of people saying 'the dole isn't enough if you have to pay a mortgage'-If you don't have a JOB what in the name of god gives you any expectation you should own your own house???I am currently employed yes but I can tell you one thing beggers can't be choosers and if you want money for free then be happy with what you get. If you do want more and feel you need to own your house then go and work in supermacs, I am sure if Irish people got off their high horses then they would be able to find jobs. Personally I would clean gutters to put food on the table for my family if it came to it and who knows maybe it will but if it does I won't be putting any demands on our country to pay my way or the government to magically privide a job for me in this GLOBAL economic crisis.