Supplying own parts for service

T-Maxx

What is the general opinion as to whom should supply the parts when you take your car in for a service? I'm asking since I'm trying to save a bit of down time on the car, ie if I supply all the parts myself I reckon I can have it back in 1 day instead of 2. (A day for them to take the old parts off and order new ones, and another day to receive and install it.)

From a money point of view, I'll have to pay 21.5% VAT on the parts, whereas the indy wouldn't. Is there a substantial (if any) mark-up charged on parts? Would they feel offended if I propose this or would it actually save them the hassle?

L1011

The mark up depends entirely on the garage - I know from having (somewhat dodgy) access to my manufacturers parts system that the markup my dealer charges is negligable and often gets discounted entirely if you're a good customer - but their labour charges are higher than an indy by some level!

gofaster_s13

As I've said before on this forum, would you bring your own steak to a restaurant and ask them to cook it ?? any decent garage should refuse to use customer supplied parts in case of liability problems due to part failure.

Voodoomelon

Indeed, only get your own parts if you're going to install them yourself, otherwise i'd leave it to them. At least you can blame them entirely if something goes wrong.

gofaster_s13

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

As I've said before on this forum, would you bring your own steak to a restaurant and ask them to cook it ?? any decent garage should refuse to use customer supplied parts in case of liability problems due to part failure.

I would disagree with that . For instance if I want to use a specific oil in my car that the garage wont have or be arsed getting I will bring it along.

What usually happens with my mechanic is that he tells me if there are any parts he will need specific to my car(oil, brake pads etc) and I get them. I buy the parts in his name so I pay the reduced VAT. Then drop in the car and parts and he does the work. This is the way he likes to do thigs himself as it saves him time ordering parts etc and this is how he would work with most of his customers I would imagine and he runs a good garage and does very good work.

Darragh29

T-Maxx wrote: »

What is the general opinion as to whom should supply the parts when you take your car in for a service? I'm asking since I'm trying to save a bit of down time on the car, ie if I supply all the parts myself I reckon I can have it back in 1 day instead of 2. (A day for them to take the old parts off and order new ones, and another day to receive and install it.)

From a money point of view, I'll have to pay 21.5% VAT on the parts, whereas the indy wouldn't. Is there a substantial (if any) mark-up charged on parts? Would they feel offended if I propose this or would it actually save them the hassle?

My own previous position on this as an indy would be that there is no way I would ever allow a customer supply parts, for the following reasons:

(1) It confuses the issue if there is a problem subsequent to the parts being fitted.

(2) It gives them a message that I'm not a professional operator.

(3) It can often result in the wrong parts being bought and messy delays then getting the correct parts.

(4) It interferes with the profit that I need to make on the transaction in order to keep my business viable and pay my overheads at the end of the month.

Having said that, some indy operators are completely fine with it, some even encourage it, but when I had folks coming up to me with a Quinton Hazel bag full of E Bay parts (usually taxi drivers), I'd send them to a guy down the road...

mickdw

I like to have direct receipts for service items when using indy garage for servicing. That way I can get an idny stamp in the service book and staple in the receipts for all the gear that was used/fitted in the service. That is as good if not better than just a main dealer stamp imo. An indy stamp without date matched receipts is not wortth the ink its printed with. So for that reason, I would take along my own stuff to the garage. Of course I can also be sure of the type of oil im getting then.

T-Maxx

Just to be clear about the parts - I'm talking genuine OEM parts, not dodgy eBay items FWIW.

Darragh29

mickdw wrote: »

I like to have direct receipts for service items when using indy garage for servicing. That way I can get an idny stamp in the service book and staple in the receipts for all the gear that was used/fitted in the service. That is as good if not better than just a main dealer stamp imo. An indy stamp without date matched receipts is not wortth the ink its printed with. So for that reason, I would take along my own stuff to the garage.

Don't agree at all. The indy garage you are paying for a service, is usually, ro should be buying OEM quality parts and lubricant in bulk from GM (General Motors).

The main dealer is buying the same parts in a different box and is also buying GM lubricant in bulk. Nissan, Ford, Opel, Fiat, etc, etc, etc, don't manufacture air filters, spark plugs, oil filters, or any service components.

There is a lot of ignorance out there about this and a lot of loose talk about "spurious parts" and the like, you go into any busy motor factor in Dublin and stand at the counter for ten minutes and you'll hear main dealers ringing in orders for service kits, so you'd have to ask what that is about in the context of the argument being made by the poster above.

Tipsy Mac

Why not just service it yourself?

Gary ITR

Darragh29 wrote: »

My own previous position on this as an indy would be that there is no way I would ever allow a customer supply parts, for the following reasons:

(1) It confuses the issue if there is a problem subsequent to the parts being fitted.

(2) It gives them a message that I'm not a professional operator.

(3) It can often result in the wrong parts being bought and messy delays then getting the correct parts.

(4) It interferes with the profit that I need to make on the transaction in order to keep my business viable and pay my overheads at the end of the month.

Having said that, some indy operators are completely fine with it, some even encourage it, but when I had folks coming up to me with a Quinton Hazel bag full of E Bay parts (usually taxi drivers), I'd send them to a guy down the road...

What if I arrived on your doorstep with say Bilstein Coliovers that I wanted to get fitted?
There seems to be a big enough market out there for this kind of work.
I'm just curious now.

I wouldn't go turning up at a garage with oil/airfilters, as one of the others said it'd be like bringing a steak to a restaurant to be cooked

mickdw

Darragh29 wrote: »

Don't agree at all. The indy garage you are paying for a service, is usually, ro should be buying OEM quality parts and lubricant in bulk from GM (General Motors).

The main dealer is buying the same parts in a different box and is also buying GM lubricant in bulk. Nissan, Ford, Opel, Fiat, etc, etc, etc, don't manufacture air filters, spark plugs, oil filters, or any service components.

There is a lot of ignorance out there about this and a lot of loose talk about "spurious parts" and the like, you go into any busy motor factor in Dublin and stand at the counter for ten minutes and you'll hear main dealers ringing in orders for service kits, so you'd have to ask what that is about in the context of the argument being made by the poster above.

You are gone off on a tangent from the actual point of my post. I never usually buy main dealer service items. The point of my post was that if I have a receipt to show that I actually went and bought the stuff for the service and then have a garage stamp for having service work carried out, any future buyer can be pretty damn sure that the service was actually carried fully and with suitable service parts. Compare this to a receipt from an indy garage which at best will give limited detail as to materials used and I know which service record would be more impressive.

Volvoboy

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Why not just service it yourself?

+1

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055422868&highlight=SERVICE

Darragh29

mickdw wrote: »

You are gone off on a tangent from the actual point of my post. I never usually buy main dealer service items. The point of my post was that if I have a receipt to show that I actually went and bought the stuff for the service and then have a garage stamp for having service work carried out, any future buyer can be pretty damn sure that the service was actually carried fully and with suitable service parts. Compare this to a receipt from an indy garage which at best will give limited detail as to materials used and I know which service record would be more impressive.

Most people assume that when a book is stamped saying that parts have been replaced, that the parts have actually been replaced. If you are dealing with a cynic who is always looking for a conspiracy theory, then no amount of stamps or paperwork will convince them otherwise. If you don't trust the person working on your car, then don't get your car serviced there, service it yourself, simple.

Whatever about the 4 reasons I set out above for not allowing customers supply their own parts, if I had someone wanting to supply their own parts because they didn't trust me to do the work that I was charging for, that would be the last time I'd be doing anything for them. If I do a service, I give an invoice which is far more detailed and comprehensive than any main dealer invoice, so this notion that only a main dealer can stamp is service book is just a non runner.

mickdw

Darragh29 wrote: »

Most people assume that when a book is stamped saying that parts have been replaced, that the parts have actually been replaced. If you are dealing with a cynic who is always looking for a conspiracy theory, then no amount of stamps or paperwork will convince them otherwise. If you don't trust the person working on your car, then don't get your car serviced there, service it yourself, simple.

Whatever about the 4 reasons I set out above for not allowing customers supply their own parts, if I had someone wanting to supply their own parts because they didn't trust me to do the work that I was charging for, that would be the last time I'd be doing anything for them. If I do a service, I give an invoice which is far more detailed and comprehensive than any main dealer invoice, so this notion that only a main dealer can stamp is service book is just a non runner.

Are you purposely giving stupid replies? This is two posts in a row where you have created an agrument for yourself. Where did I mention that Main dealer is the way to go re servicing? I would be firmly in the do it myself camp or indy.
Also your argument re trusting your mechanic is nonsense. My argument here is that when I come to sell a car, the buyer can see that the stuff was bought. They would have no reason to trust my mechanic and would be foolish to do so. In fact I could go now and get a full set of stamps from one local garage. Now everyone locally knows they wouldnt mean alot but a buyer from other side of the country wouldnt. hence my argument.
So for the last time, Im not saying to buy the stuff at a main dealer and im not saying that dealer servicing is the way to go.
Its obvious you dont fancy the idea of people taking the stuff to you to do the work and thats fair enough but that doesnt allow you to start coming back with false statements.
BTW, how is business? With your strange inability to pick up what im saying in this thread, I wouldnt leaving my car at you to do an oil change as I would probably find you swapped the engine out by mistake.

Terrontress

Duplica

Terrontress

Darragh29 wrote: »

(4) It interferes with the profit that I need to make on the transaction in order to keep my business viable and pay my overheads at the end of the month.

I would think that this is what some people would have an issue with. You are adding a margin to the parts to make a profit. The customer can get the parts for less than you are charging but doesn't have the expertise to fit them.

If this is the case and a detailed invoice is given, breaking down labour separately to parts, why should a customer not provide their own parts?

If a part is defective and fails, I presume a mechanic won't take the cost on the chin but seek redress from the manufacturer. Why can the customer not do this? It might make it easier for the mechanic as they won't have to chase it up.

I suppose the upshot eventually would be higher labour charges.

I have sourced glass from a scrap yard in the past and had it fitted when the prices being quoted for replacing it made me wince. The fitter was glad of the work and I was glad to save a few quid.

Mr.Diagnostic

Terrontress wrote: »

The customer can get the parts for less than you are charging but doesn't have the expertise to fit them.

That is very unlikely to be true. Most customers will be unlikely to know the cheapest source of quality parts. They will also pay a higher vat rate this way.
Aside from this, a garage is in business to make money. If the garage has a policy of only fitting parts they supply then that is up to them.

K-Jet

K-Jet wrote: »

What if I arrived on your doorstep with say Bilstein Coliovers that I wanted to get fitted?
There seems to be a big enough market out there for this kind of work.
I'm just curious now.

+1

K-Jet wrote: »

I wouldn't go turning up at a garage with oil/airfilters, as one of the others said it'd be like bringing a steak to a restaurant to be cooked

I know my local garage wouldnt have any 0w 30 Castrol in stock so I wouldnt even wait to be told to get it.

Whats your opinion darragh29 on garages that ask the customer to get parts. In general my local garage would have the parts in stock but things like fully synthetic oil, brake pads for some cars, wheel bearing, clutches etc would not be. So why not ask the customer who may be in town beside a motorfactors or dealer to get the parts rather than waste time ordering them. I have had no problem buying parts at the trade price when I mention my mechanics name.

Terrontress

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

That is very unlikely to be true. Most customers will be unlikely to know the cheapest source of quality parts. They will also pay a higher vat rate this way.
Aside from this, a garage is in business to make money. If the garage has a policy of only fitting parts they supply then that is up to them.

Most customers may not but some do. Assuming that they can get them at the same price as the mechanic can, is it so unfair for the customer to expect to pay that price?

Darragh29

Terrontress wrote: »

I would think that this is what some people would have an issue with. You are adding a margin to the parts to make a profit. The customer can get the parts for less than you are charging but doesn't have the expertise to fit them.

If this is the case and a detailed invoice is given, breaking down labour separately to parts, why should a customer not provide their own parts?

If a part is defective and fails, I presume a mechanic won't take the cost on the chin but seek redress from the manufacturer. Why can the customer not do this? It might make it easier for the mechanic as they won't have to chase it up.

I suppose the upshot eventually would be higher labour charges.

I have sourced glass from a scrap yard in the past and had it fitted when the prices being quoted for replacing it made me wince. The fitter was glad of the work and I was glad to save a few quid.

There isn't a business in the world that doesn't buy something for one price, put a margin on it and sell it for a higher price, this is what businesses do. Do you take issue when you go into Supervalu and they charge you 1.65 for 2 litres of milk but are only paying 85 cent for the same product from their supplier??? It p*sses me off no end when people complain about garages making a profit on parts. Every business makes a profit on what they sell, this is what allows them to pay their overheads at the end of the month. Also, the customer cannot get the same quality part for less than I can supply it for, this is incorrect, because as a trade buyer spending a five digit figure a month on parts, I get a discount. The retailer spending 50 Euro a month, doesn't get a discount.

By all means buy your own parts, and fit them yourself.

Darragh29

mickdw wrote: »

Are you purposely giving stupid replies? This is two posts in a row where you have created an agrument for yourself. Where did I mention that Main dealer is the way to go re servicing? I would be firmly in the do it myself camp or indy.
Also your argument re trusting your mechanic is nonsense. My argument here is that when I come to sell a car, the buyer can see that the stuff was bought. They would have no reason to trust my mechanic and would be foolish to do so. In fact I could go now and get a full set of stamps from one local garage. Now everyone locally knows they wouldnt mean alot but a buyer from other side of the country wouldnt. hence my argument.
So for the last time, Im not saying to buy the stuff at a main dealer and im not saying that dealer servicing is the way to go.
Its obvious you dont fancy the idea of people taking the stuff to you to do the work and thats fair enough but that doesnt allow you to start coming back with false statements.
BTW, how is business? With your strange inability to pick up what im saying in this thread, I wouldnt leaving my car at you to do an oil change as I would probably find you swapped the engine out by mistake.

Let's see if we can simplify this any further for you as you are obviously struggling with the very fundamentals here....

I'll start with this... When I stamp a service book for a customer, this means I have serviced the car in line with the service recommendations and maintenance schedule issued by the vehicle manufacturer. That stamp means that I have removed whatever parts the manufacturer says should be removed as part of a scheduled vehicle service, and I replace those parts with new parts of a specific quality, as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. It also says that I have carried out the necessary checks and inspections as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.

Now, whether an indy garage stamps the service book, or an authorised dealer stamps the service book, this is what the stamp signifies. That the vehicle has been serviced, maintained and inspected in a manner that is consistent with the recommendations issued by the manufacturer of that vehicle.

You will of course find people who will refuse to accept that even though the book has been stamped and an invoice has been issued, that the vehicle has actually been serviced as per the manufacturers recommendations, or indeed has been serviced at all. If you are dealing with a cowboy operation, whether it be an authorised dealer cowboy operation or an independent cowboy operation, these concerns might be justified.

But if you are dealing with someone that you trust (and why on earth would you be dealing with them if you didn't trust them), these concerns are entirely unjustified.

You clearly do not trust whoever is working on your car to deal with you truthfully and honestly. That's your business, but don't think that professional operators contributing to threads here on a daily basis, will let you come along and make out that hard working honest people operating in the industry cannot be trusted to simply do work that they have charged for, and let you spead completely unfounded paranoia and cynicism here, and not call you on it.

For completeness, you wouldn't ever be a customer of mine, because I wouldn't take your business on the basis of you buying your own parts and you'll find that this is how most professional operators run their business.

Fishtits

OK. Lets have a rational look at this issue...

1) Correct parts,

any mechanic will tell you that there are a multitude of different possibilities for the routine service parts fitted to any particular make/model/year etc. its a nightmare in that sometimes you won't know exactly which filter/brake pad etc you need, often the exact part can only be identified by having the old one in your hand.

2) Warranty,

If you supply parts that fail, you will pay twice to have the replacement fitted. Your supplier will replace the faulty part under warranty but will not cover the additional cost of a second installment by your mechanic. If your mechanic sourced the parts, they will cover the entire cost of warranty replacement ie parts & labour.

3) VAT,

If you buy your own parts you pay 21.5% VAT. If your mechanic buys the parts you pay 13.5% VAT. Given that in my experience most mechanics make between 10 usually & max 20% on the parts element of a bill your saving is minimal.

4) OEM spec parts,

Vehicle manufacturers do not make oil filters, brake pads etc. they buy them from companies that specialise in these technologies. These manufacturers also sell to the aftermarket. There are also manufacturers (not just the Chinese...) who poorly copy these parts that sell to the aftermarket. The chances are that your mechanic will know that a Mann filter sold by X Motor Factor is in fact a genuine "German Marque" filter etc. You do not have this knowledge.

5) Talk to your mech,

Ask in advance whether it suits that you get the parts, some mechanics like you to do this, and may guide you as to where to get them. Its not a black & white issue.

Cheers,

I noticed that you failed to answer my question darragh29. interestingly I just arrived home for the weekend a few hours ago to find a suspension mounting sitting on the kitchen table that my sister bought for her car on request from our local garage and it was bought at a trade price.

Ok the way I see it is: If you go to a main dealer you go with what they supply as they will most likely have the correct parts in stock. An indy mechanics job is to work on your car not to supply the parts so if a customer wants to supply the parts the garage should fit them end of!!

Edit: I should mention as another poster said I am not talking about ebay parts.

Darragh29

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

I would disagree with that . For instance if I want to use a specific oil in my car that the garage wont have or be arsed getting I will bring it along.

What usually happens with my mechanic is that he tells me if there are any parts he will need specific to my car(oil, brake pads etc) and I get them. I buy the parts in his name so I pay the reduced VAT. Then drop in the car and parts and he does the work. This is the way he likes to do thigs himself as it saves him time ordering parts etc and this is how he would work with most of his customers I would imagine and he runs a good garage and does very good work.

More urban myths... You don't get a lower VAT rate on parts and neither does your mechanic. You're completely mixing up what is actually happening here. You're mechanic will pay VAT at the 21.5% rate and so will you if you are buying parts. Your mechanic can claim that VAT back on the parts invoice because he has a VAT number. You do not see any benefit in this transaction because you do not have a VAT number. Also, your mechanic charges VAT out at 13.5% which more or less makes the transaction VAT neutral to him. He claims back the VAT he or you paid for the parts if they are bought in his name, and he charges VAT on his invoice at 13.5% to you.

You don't get any VAT discount, you don't get charged any less VAT for parts, you pay the same VAT regardless of what was this transaction is handled.

Darragh29

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

Whats your opinion darragh29 on garages that ask the customer to get parts.

Have already made this clear in posts earlier in this thead.

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

In general my local garage would have the parts in stock but things like fully synthetic oil, brake pads for some cars, wheel bearing, clutches etc would not be. So why not ask the customer who may be in town beside a motorfactors or dealer to get the parts rather than waste time ordering them. I have had no problem buying parts at the trade price when I mention my mechanics name.

I've already answered all these points in an earlier post. The fact is that EVERY business operation, and indy garages are no different, need to make a certain amount of profit in order to sustain their business.

Based on the industrially accepted operating costs of Irish indy garages, the person running the business needs to be consistently making between 55% and 60% gross profit on all transactions, in order to stay on top of overheads and to be able to open the door the following month.

If an indy garage operator is going down the road of letting customers get their own parts for cost, he/she is undermining the future existance of their business operation, because that necessary profit margin above is not being maintained. It would be like going into a bar with a can of Heineken and throwing the barman a Euro to open the bottle and pour it into a pint glass for you.

The barman wouldn't be in business long if he ran his business like this, so he doesn't let people bring in cans of Heineken into his pub, he buys a pint of Heineken for around 90 Cent and charges you around 4.80 Euro for it, and he can continue in business doing this. The day he allows you come in with a can of Heineken and give him a Euro for opening it and serving it to you, is the day his business is fu*ked.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people try this with garages (only indy garages mind you), and do not try it in relation to any other product or service that they buy.

People wonder why there is a lack of professionalism, technical training & modern diagnostic technology in the indy garage end of the industry and at the same time want to be able to come into these outlets with a Quinton Hazel bag full of parts and expect the outlet to take a hit on the margin to accommodate them.

Darragh29

Darragh29 wrote: »

More urban myths... You don't get a lower VAT rate on parts and neither does your mechanic. You're completely mixing up what is actually happening here. You're mechanic will pay VAT at the 21.5% rate and so will you if you are buying parts. Your mechanic can claim that VAT back on the parts invoice because he has a VAT number. You do not see any benefit in this transaction because you do not have a VAT number. Also, your mechanic charges VAT out at 13.5% which more or less makes the transaction VAT neutral to him. He claims back the VAT he or you paid for the parts if they are bought in his name, and he charges VAT on his invoice at 13.5% to you.

You don't get any VAT discount, you don't get charged any less VAT for parts, you pay the same VAT regardless of what was this transaction is handled.

I didnt mean less vat(I may have said this by mistake) I mean trade price, Just to prove this to my self when I was buying a clutch for my sisters car in a main dealer in Galway I went in and got a price for a clutch which I argued down a bit more and was told I this was the lowest possible price. I then said I was buying the part for X to fit for me. He went in the back and came out with another 50ish euro discount!

Daithi McGee

T-Maxx wrote: »

What is the general opinion as to whom should supply the parts when you take your car in for a service? I'm asking since I'm trying to save a bit of down time on the car, ie if I supply all the parts myself I reckon I can have it back in 1 day instead of 2. (A day for them to take the old parts off and order new ones, and another day to receive and install it.)

From a money point of view, I'll have to pay 21.5% VAT on the parts, whereas the indy wouldn't. Is there a substantial (if any) mark-up charged on parts? Would they feel offended if I propose this or would it actually save them the hassle?

It is common enough in culchie land with indy garages but you would have to ask/check it out first, not just turn up with a box of parts and expect to get the work done. That is mainly for service stuff though. Set of pads and the like. I have known one or two to get engines from traynors in Armagh and get them fitted to though.

Reference the reduced VAT rate the rest being mentioned. You can't buy parts at a reduced VAT rate anywhere. The lower vat rate is when the labour is two thirds of the bill. Well that is what is used to be based on, or something like that.

It was something the EU was looking into expanding to more labour intensive industries awhile back too.

JamesM

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

I didnt mean less vat(I may have said this by mistake) I mean trade price, Just to prove this to my self when I was buying a clutch for my sisters car in a main dealer in Galway I went in and got a price for a clutch which I argued down a bit more and was told I this was the lowest possible price. I then said I was buying the part for X to fit for me. He went in the back and came out with another 50ish euro discount!

You said: " I buy the parts in his name so I pay the reduced VAT."

Darragh29

Darragh29 wrote: »

If an indy garage operator is going down the road of letting customers get their own parts for cost, he/she is undermining the future existance of their business operation, because that necessary profit margin above is not being maintained. It would be like going into a bar with a can of Heineken and throwing the barman a Euro to open the bottle and pour it into a pint glass for you.

Well the garage I am talking has been operating for years like this and are doing very well they are actually more busy than ever in the last while and as I said before it is the garage that is asking the customers to get the parts not us walking up with parts from ebay and asking for them to be fitted.

I would like to ask a question of you again that was asked earlier: If a person came to you and asked you to fit a specific part be it a boost controller or upgraded brakes etc which you obviously wouldnt have in stock, would you turn away the business?

Darragh29

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

I didnt mean less vat(I may have said this by mistake) I mean trade price, Just to prove this to my self when I was buying a clutch for my sisters car in a main dealer in Galway I went in and got a price for a clutch which I argued down a bit more and was told I this was the lowest possible price. I then said I was buying the part for X to fit for me. He went in the back and came out with another 50ish euro discount!

That's my point. Your mechanic is 50 Euro down on that transaction. I'm not in a position to speak as to how your mechanic runs his business but if he is losing 50 Euro on every customer, he is exposing his business to serious difficulties. If he is running a business from the side of his house and is not carrying normal business overheads, then he might be able to afford to do this and more power to him, but businesses that have 2-3K rent a month to pay and local council rates, trade insurance, etc, cannot afford to operate like this and it is very unfair to expect any business to compromise it's operations so that you can have something done on the cheap.

Would you go into your local and throw the barman a quid to serve you a can of Heineken that you bought yourself for 1.99 Euro in the local Eurospar???

Darragh29

Darragh29 wrote: »

That's my point. Your mechanic is 50 Euro down on that transaction. I'm not in a position to speak as to how your mechanic runs his business but if he is losing 50 Euro on every customer, he is exposing his business to serious difficulties. If he is running a business from the side of his house and is not carrying normal business overheads, then he might be able to afford to do this and more power to him, but businesses that have 2-3K rent a month to pay and local council rates, trade insurance, etc, cannot afford to operate like this and it is very unfair to expect any business to compromise it's operations so that you can have something done on the cheap.

Would you go into your local and throw the barman a quid to serve you a can of Heineken that you bought yourself for 1.99 Euro in the local Eurospar???

I can see where your comming from, my local garage is in a small town and I would imagine the overheads are not bad(only 2 people work in the garage) but still what I am wondering is if the profit difference is as big as you say why do some garage ask their customers to buy parts rather than make some quick profit?

Actually in fairness thinking about this I couldnt say for sure that this is the way he works for all customers as my family would be good customers for years but the impression I get is that this is the way the garage operates.

Darragh29

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

I can see where your comming from, my local garage is in a small town and I would imagine the overheads are not bad(only 2 people work in the garage) but still what I am wondering is if the profit difference is as big as you say why do some garage ask their customers to buy parts rather than make some quick profit?

I can't imagine why someone would operate their business like this but each to their own. It's not a question of making a "quick" profit. It is profit that is necessary to pay operating costs.

Terrontress

Darragh29 wrote: »

Would you go into your local and throw the barman a quid to serve you a can of Heineken that you bought yourself for 1.99 Euro in the local Eurospar???

Are you familiar with the concept of corkage? It's widespread in the hospitality. Not using Heineken but the same concept.

I just don't see why, if separate line item detail is provided for each element of the service that a customer cannot choose elements he wishes to avail of, legal obligations notwithstanding.

Mr.Diagnostic

Fishtits wrote: »

OK. Lets have a rational look at this issue...

1) Correct parts,

any mechanic will tell you that there are a multitude of different possibilities for the routine service parts fitted to any particular make/model/year etc. its a nightmare in that sometimes you won't know exactly which filter/brake pad etc you need, often the exact part can only be identified by having the old one in your hand.

2) Warranty,

If you supply parts that fail, you will pay twice to have the replacement fitted. Your supplier will replace the faulty part under warranty but will not cover the additional cost of a second installment by your mechanic. If your mechanic sourced the parts, they will cover the entire cost of warranty replacement ie parts & labour.

3) VAT,

If you buy your own parts you pay 21.5% VAT. If your mechanic buys the parts you pay 13.5% VAT. Given that in my experience most mechanics make between 10 usually & max 20% on the parts element of a bill your saving is minimal.

4) OEM spec parts,

Vehicle manufacturers do not make oil filters, brake pads etc. they buy them from companies that specialise in these technologies. These manufacturers also sell to the aftermarket. There are also manufacturers (not just the Chinese...) who poorly copy these parts that sell to the aftermarket. The chances are that your mechanic will know that a Mann filter sold by X Motor Factor is in fact a genuine "German Marque" filter etc. You do not have this knowledge.

5) Talk to your mech,

Ask in advance whether it suits that you get the parts, some mechanics like you to do this, and may guide you as to where to get them. Its not a black & white issue.

Cheers,

Excellent points.

Terrontress wrote: »

Are you familiar with the concept of corkage?

That kinda defeats the customers aim of saving money by supplying their own parts.

Terrontress wrote: »

I just don't see why, if separate line item detail is provided for each element of the service that a customer cannot choose elements he wishes to avail of, legal obligations notwithstanding.

That’s very simple. The proprietor makes that decision in the same way as some restaurants allow a corkage service and some don’t.

Terrontress

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

Excellent points.





That kinda defeats the customers aim of saving money by supplying their own parts.




That’s very simple. The proprietor makes that decision in the same way as some restaurants allow a corkage service and some don’t.

Well in my earlier post I said it would most likely result in a higher labour charge as the mechanic has to make money somewhere.

I just don't see it as being particularly sensible to pay a large mark up on a product, which is itemised on a bill your receive, when you know you can get it elsewhere cheaper.

What is in effect happening is that the mechanic is loading the price of the parts to subsidise the labour cost.

Darragh29

Terrontress wrote: »

Well in my earlier post I said it would most likely result in a higher labour charge as the mechanic has to make money somewhere.

I just don't see it as being particularly sensible to pay a large mark up on a product, which is itemised on a bill your receive, when you know you can get it elsewhere cheaper.

What is in effect happening is that the mechanic is loading the price of the parts to subsidise the labour cost.

It isn't really. There is a financial model for an independent garage operation and if you operate outside of it, you expose yourself to risk.

It isn't just about money, here's another reason why I had a zero tolerance policy with regard to customers supplying their own parts. It's because it sends out a message that you'll run with anything, like a kind of "whatever you're having yourself" message. It encourages an over familiarity with your customer that can ultimately lead to your customer thinking that you're a great lad who is happy to wait until the following week or month to get paid for a job. You could have a situation where this customer who you have been allowing supply their own parts, needs a new gearbox or engine and you will have to source this for them. You get the component, and the customer falsely thinks that you're their friend now and you'll have put anywhere up to 1,000 Euro or more into this transaction and often your customer will come to pick up the car thinking that they can "throw the money into you next week". I know people posting here will think that this is just absolute bullsh*t but if you work in the independent end of the trade, you'll be well able to identify with this and it is a major problem for independent garage outlets and it all starts off with the usual rules of business being set aside and the customer being allowed to dictate the terms of the transaction on their own terms and liberties end up being taken, such is human nature.

Darragh29

Terrontress wrote: »

Are you familiar with the concept of corkage? It's widespread in the hospitality. Not using Heineken but the same concept.

I just don't see why, if separate line item detail is provided for each element of the service that a customer cannot choose elements he wishes to avail of, legal obligations notwithstanding.

Yeah, corkage could make sense at a wedding where 30K upwards is being handed over. Even then, some wedding outlets could be charging you 200K for your wedding and will still not allow you corkage. You can't go into your local and demand or expect corkage.

I know the motor industry is getting bad press at the moment and the independent sector of the industry is often thought to be untrustworthy or unreliable or unequipped to resolve vehicle issues for customers, but there is another side of the argument here that independent garage operators can unfortunately relate to and the truth is that the customer is to blame for some of the problems by expecting garage operators to operate outside of a simple business model at cost to themselves.

metricspaces

Fishtits wrote: »

OK. Lets have a rational look at this issue...

1) Correct parts,

any mechanic will tell you that there are a multitude of different possibilities for the routine service parts fitted to any particular make/model/year etc. its a nightmare in that sometimes you won't know exactly which filter/brake pad etc you need, often the exact part can only be identified by having the old one in your hand.

2) Warranty,

If you supply parts that fail, you will pay twice to have the replacement fitted. Your supplier will replace the faulty part under warranty but will not cover the additional cost of a second installment by your mechanic. If your mechanic sourced the parts, they will cover the entire cost of warranty replacement ie parts & labour.

3) VAT,

If you buy your own parts you pay 21.5% VAT. If your mechanic buys the parts you pay 13.5% VAT. Given that in my experience most mechanics make between 10 usually & max 20% on the parts element of a bill your saving is minimal.

4) OEM spec parts,

Vehicle manufacturers do not make oil filters, brake pads etc. they buy them from companies that specialise in these technologies. These manufacturers also sell to the aftermarket. There are also manufacturers (not just the Chinese...) who poorly copy these parts that sell to the aftermarket. The chances are that your mechanic will know that a Mann filter sold by X Motor Factor is in fact a genuine "German Marque" filter etc. You do not have this knowledge.

5) Talk to your mech,

Ask in advance whether it suits that you get the parts, some mechanics like you to do this, and may guide you as to where to get them. Its not a black & white issue.

Cheers,

6) OEM Parts - Part II

I priced various parts from a main dealer in Ireland and a main dealer in the UK (all prices ex-vat). On average it was 60% more expensive to buy the parts in Ireland. For one particular part it was 100% dearer in Ireland.

There is simply no explaining that sort of mark up other than we are over charged in Ireland.

I can imagine this is one of the reasons why a customer would want to buy the parts themselves. There are three benefits here for the customer:

(a) they know that an OEM part has been used.
(b) they save money.
(c) they save time, in some circumstances on special order parts that a main dealer in Ireland wouldn't have, but one in the UK would have, it is quicker for it to be posted from the UK.

Terrontress

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah, corkage could make sense at a wedding where 30K upwards is being handed over. Even then, some wedding outlets could be charging you 200K for your wedding and will still not allow you corkage. You can't go into your local and demand or expect corkage.

I know the motor industry is getting bad press at the moment and the independent sector of the industry is often thought to be untrustworthy or unreliable or unequipped to resolve vehicle issues for customers, but there is another side of the argument here that independent garage operators can unfortunately relate to and the truth is that the customer is to blame for some of the problems by expecting garage operators to operate outside of a simple business model at cost to themselves.

I am not at all suggesting that you or that anyone are being underhand, you advertise / quote your prices and people don't have to take it if they don't want. I just don't understand why, when you provide an itemised invoice, a customer cannot substitute an item on that invoice if they can get it cheaper elsewhere. Well, I do understand it in that you are charging more for the part than you are paying for it. But I don't believe it to be fair to impose that on your customers.

You might as well stick €50 sundries onto each job you do. Say you are not doing the job without it.

Darragh29

Terrontress wrote: »

I am not at all suggesting that you or that anyone are being underhand, you advertise / quote your prices and people don't have to take it if they don't want. I just don't understand why, when you provide an itemised invoice, a customer cannot substitute an item on that invoice if they can get it cheaper elsewhere. Well, I do understand it in that you are charging more for the part than you are paying for it. But I don't believe it to be fair to impose that on your customers.

You might as well stick €50 sundries onto each job you do. Say you are not doing the job without it.

No but here is what usually happens with a customer who wants to supply their own parts, they get you to commit to a price on the basis of the garage sourcing the parts first, then they try to get the price down by suggesting that they get the parts themselves!

Here's how it happens...!

Customer: Can you give me a price to replace a clutch???

Owner: I'll do up a price and call you back in ten minutes (say for example the retail cost of parts to you is 192.56 Euro and 4 hours labour @ 50 Euro/Hr, costing 200 Euro. If I get 25% discount on the above parts, I make 48.14 Euro profit on the parts).

Owner: Now, I can do that transaction for you at 392.56 Euro excluding VAT @ 13.5% (or VAT @ 13.5% being 52.99 Euro, the VAT inclusive price is 445.55 Euro). The price is broken down into 4 hours labour @ 50 Euro an hour and the parts are costing you 192.56 Euro.

Customer: Great, how about if I supply the parts and you just charge me the labour for fitting them???

Now what is important to note here is that I've given this customer my labour rate of 50 Euro an hour, and it simply isn't open to me now to adjust my labour rate upwards to 65 Euro an hour and spread the 48.14 Euro I'm losing in profit (by allowing the customer to supply parts), across the 4 hours labour I was originally going to charge my customer!!!

You can't run a business like this, you wouldn't have any credibility and it would not be fair on the customer.

mickdw

Darragh29 wrote: »

Let's see if we can simplify this any further for you as you are obviously struggling with the very fundamentals here....

I'll start with this... When I stamp a service book for a customer, this means I have serviced the car in line with the service recommendations and maintenance schedule issued by the vehicle manufacturer. That stamp means that I have removed whatever parts the manufacturer says should be removed as part of a scheduled vehicle service, and I replace those parts with new parts of a specific quality, as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. It also says that I have carried out the necessary checks and inspections as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.

Now, whether an indy garage stamps the service book, or an authorised dealer stamps the service book, this is what the stamp signifies. That the vehicle has been serviced, maintained and inspected in a manner that is consistent with the recommendations issued by the manufacturer of that vehicle.

You will of course find people who will refuse to accept that even though the book has been stamped and an invoice has been issued, that the vehicle has actually been serviced as per the manufacturers recommendations, or indeed has been serviced at all. If you are dealing with a cowboy operation, whether it be an authorised dealer cowboy operation or an independent cowboy operation, these concerns might be justified.

But if you are dealing with someone that you trust (and why on earth would you be dealing with them if you didn't trust them), these concerns are entirely unjustified.

You clearly do not trust whoever is working on your car to deal with you truthfully and honestly. That's your business, but don't think that professional operators contributing to threads here on a daily basis, will let you come along and make out that hard working honest people operating in the industry cannot be trusted to simply do work that they have charged for, and let you spead completely unfounded paranoia and cynicism here, and not call you on it.

For completeness, you wouldn't ever be a customer of mine, because I wouldn't take your business on the basis of you buying your own parts and you'll find that this is how most professional operators run their business.

Ok, example to explain my original point:

1/ I travel to other side of country to buy a car. I find the book full of unknown indy stamps and indy invoices and invoice from factors for relevant parts. This would be excellent in my opinion.
2/ I find the book full of indy stamps and an invoices from indy stating things like oil & filter changed.

Even if garage says castrol slx used, there is a possibility that a dodgy garage could be using cheaper oil and charging for the expensive stuff and as Im possibly buying this car on the other side of the country, I dont know the reputation of the garage. Now if a factors receipt states slx purchased, well thats a certainty as there is no reason to misrepresent the product purchased.
Now, you appear to be doing everything by the book and I cannot argue with that but again, you seem to dwell on the fact that I should trust the garage doing the work. This is completely off the point as explained above as my argument was in relation to future buyers viewing the car who have never heard of MY TRUSTED GARAGE and having a cast iron service history. And if you are going to say, that there are no garages who would charge for castrol slx and use the stuff they have in stock, well you are very innocent indeed.

Do you accept my point?

Am I right in thinking you failed in your indy garage enterprise? Perhaps its not me who is struggling with the very fundamentals here!

I still maintain that an indy mechanics job is to work on a car and parts should not come into it. My question has still not been answered would any of you guys here saying you only fit the parts that you supply fit specialist performance parts that you couldnt possibly have in stock and could take weeks to order had the customer not already bought them and asked you to fit them?

maidhc

This is a weird thread.

Anytime I get work done to my car I just bring it to a mechanic that I trust. I'm not going to question his judgment as to what parts he fits any more than I am his skill in fitting them.

He sends a bill that, all things considered, I view to be fair.


(As regards a specialist part I don't think my mechanic would have any problem with fitting it, but I would see why he would have an objection to doing it for a random punter... a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and all that)

Darragh29

mickdw wrote: »

Ok, example to explain my original point:

1/ I travel to other side of country to buy a car. I find the book full of unknown indy stamps and indy invoices and invoice from factors for relevant parts. This would be excellent in my opinion.
2/ I find the book full of indy stamps and an invoices from indy stating things like oil & filter changed.

Even if garage says castrol slx used, there is a possibility that a dodgy garage could be using cheaper oil and charging for the expensive stuff and as Im possibly buying this car on the other side of the country, I dont know the reputation of the garage. Now if a factors receipt states slx purchased, well thats a certainty as there is no reason to misrepresent the product purchased.
Now, you appear to be doing everything by the book and I cannot argue with that but again, you seem to dwell on the fact that I should trust the garage doing the work. This is completely off the point as explained above as my argument was in relation to future buyers viewing the car who have never heard of MY TRUSTED GARAGE and having a cast iron service history. And if you are going to say, that there are no garages who would charge for castrol slx and use the stuff they have in stock, well you are very innocent indeed.

Do you accept my point?

Am I right in thinking you failed in your indy garage enterprise? Perhaps its not me who is struggling with the very fundamentals here!

No matter what way I try to look at your argument, and in fairness to me, I am genuinely trying to see the point you are making, it simply doesn't stand up. No matter what outlet you use, authorised or independent, there is no certainty of the type you are seeking.

You could bring your car to an independent garage for a service, (you obviously couldn't do this with an authorised outlet as they would throw you out of the building!), and hand in your service components and your container of Castrol SLX lubricant, and the mechanic can throw that in the back of his car for his next nixer and fill your car up with OEM GM specification lubricant, and throw an empty container of Castrol SLX back at you to "prove" that the mechanic used your oil!

You're going to probably come back and tell me that you will stand over the mechanic and supervise the whole operation to make sure that your parts and your Castrol SLX are being used, and I'll come back and say would you stop wasting everyone's fu*king time including your own and just service the car yourself if this is how inherently cynical you are of people who work in aftersales.

I ran a highly successful independent garage and I decided to get out of the business because I found myself dealing with too many time wasting idiots who think they know everything and think that when you are actually trying to provide an excellent standard of service to them, that you are actually robbing them. What actually made me decide to get out of the business in the end was dealing with people like yourself who cannot be convinced that you are acting in their best interests at all times, no matter what you do for them.

I had enough of trying to convince people that if I was doing a clutch for them and discovered through my own dilligence that they needed a CV boot or a ball joint replaced, that it wasn't actually me trying to "rob" or "con" them, that this was just me doing my job. The biggest headache any independent garage owner has is the know-it-all customer who has it in his head that you are out to "get" or "do" him, but in all reality hasn't a fu*king clue what he is talking about, his head is just full of crap that he has heard down in the pub on the high stool.

maidhc

Darragh29 wrote: »

I had enough of trying to convince people that if I was doing a clutch for them and discovered through my own dilligence that they needed a CV boot or a ball joint replaced, that it wasn't actually me trying to "rob" or "con" them, that this was just me doing my job. The biggest headache any independent garage owner has is the know-it-all customer who has it in his head that you are out to "get" or "do" him, but in all reality hasn't a fu*king clue what he is talking about, his head is just full of crap that he has heard down in the pub on the high stool.

I am in a completely different profession, but I know exactly how you feel.

maidhc

maidhc wrote: »

This is a weird thread.

Anytime I get work done to my car I just bring it to a mechanic that I trust. I'm not going to question his judgment as to what parts he fits any more than I am his skill in fitting them.

He sends a bill that, all things considered, I view to be fair.


(As regards a specialist part I don't think my mechanic would have any problem with fitting it, but I would see why he would have an objection to doing it for a random punter... a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and all that)

I have complete trust in my local mechanic but the point I am making is: for instance I brought my sisters car in a few months ago and he checked it out and said it needed a clutch. He told me to buy the clutch in the main dealer and mention his name so as to get the trade price. This has been the case any time he has not had the parts in stock, brake pads for my car, wheel baring for dads car etc etc and his labour is so so much less than would be charged by a dealer yet he runs a very successful business and always has at least twice as much work on as the garage can handle.

On the topic of specialist parts, if I want to fit far better brakes to my car and I cannot do it myself and if all indy mechanics refuse to fit parts they havnt supplied at an unfair mark up, how do I get the brakes fitted?

Darragh29

maidhc wrote: »

I am in a completely different profession, but I know exactly how you feel.

So am I now thank Christ and I'll never put myself in a position where I am dealing with the public again. I still work for myself but am making more money now for around 2% of the hassle and crap that comes with car servicing and maintenance. I know several folks in aftersales in both authorised dealerships in aftersales and I know several folks running independent garages and the one thing we all can agree on is that it is an absolutely thankless job.

Darragh29

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

I have complete trust in my local mechanic but the point I am making is: for instance I brought my sisters car in a few months ago and he checked it out and said it needed a clutch. He told me to buy the clutch in the main dealer and mention his name so as to get the trade price. This has been the case any time he has not had the parts in stock, brake pads for my car, wheel baring for dads car etc etc and his labour is so so much less than would be charged by a dealer yet he runs a very successful business and always has at least twice as much work on as the garage can handle.

On the topic of specialist parts, if I want to fit far better brakes to my car and I cannot do it myself and if all indy mechanics refuse to fit parts they havnt supplied at an unfair mark up, how do I get the brakes fitted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coE9n2XkpMU

Also, many independent garages will not get into working on modified cars or this sort of stuff because again it is difficult to stand over the work that you do, especially when it comes to clutches, brakes, etc. These cars are usually driven in a manner that will shorten the life time of clutches, tyres, brakes, etc.

Darragh29

Darragh29 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coE9n2XkpMU

I never said I wouldnt fit brakes myself but most people would know nothing about what to do and would not have the tools. Some garages have done very well for themselves specialising in work on modified cars so its hardly a risky undertaking.

Darragh29

Whitney Tangy Crab wrote: »

I never said I wouldnt fit brakes myself but most people would know nothing about what to do and would not have the tools. Some garages have done very well for themselves specialising in work on modified cars so its hardly a risky undertaking.

I'm not being smart here, it's a simple task and you'd have it done in 40 minutes to an hour.