Munster v Ulster at Thomond Park, predictions anyone?

thehighground

Stev_o wrote: »

Why? This only hurting Irish rugby in the long term, guys like ROG, BOD and Dempsey are preventing better younger players from being selected. Humphs is 26. Will we wait another year to see how ROG gets on? Or how about 2? Hell how about we just play him against Fiji next year in the AI and leave it at that.

There is a denial idea in the Irish setup, the team is past its best, those house hold names arent providing what they used to anymore. Its time to say right lads there's guys who arent just being selected by their name and are in better form then you.

Do we want another incident of Paddy Wallace at 10??? No thanks

If Humphs is such a great player, how come he couldn't get in front of Andy Goode for gawd sake in Leicester, or that he was actually 2nd choice to Niall O'Connor in Ulster up to recently? As Toomevara said, one swallow doesn't make a summer (bearing in mind that Ian's last visit to Thomond with Leicester 2 years ago, he also won man of the match and he is 26 now!). What happened last week in Ravenhill when Ulster lost to (a poorly playing) Leinster.

Having said that, I hope he is just a late developer and he can continue on this upward trend because we need him - but I just would not be disposing of ROG just yet and I hope that Humphs (or Keatley) starts getting at least 20/25 minutes at the next 6Ns (particularly if Ireland are winning - I don't think it would do them any good to bring them into a very tight game, because if we lost it could destroy their confidence).

As for BOD - he is missing through injury often enough for younger players to put up their hand - up to now, no one has. Younger players (the ABs had a right go at Luke's channel) are going to be targetted and they need a few wise old heads around to look out for them. Look at what happened to Tommy Bowe - it took him nearly 3 years to get his confidence back from Paris.

In the last year we have had quite a selection of very young players already establishing themselves on the international team - to name names - Kearney, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Earls, Ferris (that 1/3 of a changeover in the last year)! They have all deserved their caps - I don't agree with giving out caps just because they are young. They need to earn their cap, otherwise they will also fail at International level.

jam_on_toast

toomevara wrote: »

He has thus far struggled to find any form this season, and is failing to nail down a regular Ulster start.

ROG is coming back on form. One of the few Munster marquee names to stand up and take responsibility of late. Pity about the hamstring but, Humphreys ,while promising, is no more than an understudy at best at the moment.

That is ridiculous. How is he failing to nail down a regular spot???

Struggling for form is crazy too.
You clearly haven't been watching them play.

thehighground

Stev_o wrote: »

Ref to Wallace was that under EOS he only got what 8 caps and 2 starts during the RWC year and when push came to shove in the RWC when ROG went AWOL and Wallace wasnt used.

Paddy wasn't getting a game at 10 in Ulster, who preferred an aging Humphs Senior. And you think it would have been a good idea for EOS to play Paddy ahead of even a misfiring ROG?

Brewster

thehighground wrote: »

If Humphs is such a great player, how come he couldn't get in front of Andy Goode for gawd sake in Leicester, or that he was actually 2nd choice to Niall O'Connor in Ulster up to recently? As Toomevara said, one swallow doesn't make a summer (bearing in mind that Ian's last visit to Thomond with Leicester 2 years ago, he also won man of the match and he is 26 now!). What happened last week in Ravenhill when Ulster lost to (a poorly playing) Leinster.

Having said that, I hope he is just a late developer and he can continue on this upward trend because we need him - but I just would not be disposing of ROG just yet and I hope that Humphs (or Keatley) starts getting at least 20/25 minutes at the next 6Ns (particularly if Ireland are winning - I don't think it would do them any good to bring them into a very tight game, because if we lost it could destroy their confidence).

As for BOD - he is missing through injury often enough for younger players to put up their hand - up to now, no one has. Younger players (the ABs had a right go at Luke's channel) are going to be targetted and they need a few wise old heads around to look out for them. Look at what happened to Tommy Bowe - it took him nearly 3 years to get his confidence back from Paris.

In the last year we have had quite a selection of very young players already establishing themselves on the international team - to name names - Kearney, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Earls, Ferris (that 1/3 of a changeover in the last year)! They have all deserved their caps - I don't agree with giving out caps just because they are young. They need to earn their cap, otherwise they will also fail at International level.

Ian Humphreys always had talent. No question about it. However, Matt Williams has brought the best out of Ian. He has given him the platform to perform to his best. His best is certainly good enough for Ireland. As I posted on other thread, he must improve his place kicking.

Brewster

thehighground wrote: »

Paddy wasn't getting a game at 10 in Ulster, who preferred an aging Humphs Senior. And you think it would have been a good idea for EOS to play Paddy ahead of even a misfiring ROG?

Paddy Wallace, of the last 18 months, is one of the most under rated players in Irish rugby. The guy is a class act and must start at no 12. He has it at. He is a far more rounded player than Luke Fitz. And Im a Leinster fan.....

thehighground

Brewster wrote: »

Ian Humphreys always had talent. No question about it. However, Matt Williams has brought the best out of Ian. He has given him the platform to perform to his best. His best is certainly good enough for Ireland. As I posted on other thread, he must improve his place kicking.

His older brother also had a lot of talent, but he lacked consistency and the killer instinct/arrogance (too much of a gentleman maybe?) needed to be a really top class OH (IMO of course!).

Is Ian a confidence player? How is he behind a pack that his not dominant (I know I know, most OHs are not good behind a beaten pack, but does he lose confidence) and go to pieces (missing kicks etc)?

thehighground

Brewster wrote: »

Paddy Wallace, of the last 18 months, is one of the most under rated players in Irish rugby. The guy is a class act and must start at no 12. He has it at. He is a far more rounded player than Luke Fitz. And Im a Leinster fan.....

I don't disagree with you on that. I'd have Paddy ahead of Luke at 12. I think Paddy has missed out badly because he has had to do the back-up at 10 at an international level.

d-gal

Overall the last two weekends have been great for Irish rugby, both 'minnow' provinces connacht and ulster have shown great potential and have shown up many big names of the other provinces. On form players (connacht) like muldoon, keatley, cronin, murphy should get in the training squad for the 6N. Then from Ulster the likes of humphs, pollock, court, cave, should get some experience.
There is too many players living on their name this year like horan, buckley, DOC, heaslip, fitzgerald, o'driscoll. All need to be brought back down to reality and be shown that they can be dropped and need to start hitting form again. A lot are all too used to having no competition.
The quicker the IRFU realise that their is 4 provinces in the country the better.

anonymous_joe

Stev_o wrote: »

Ref to Wallace was that under EOS he only got what 8 caps and 2 starts during the RWC year and when push came to shove in the RWC when ROG went AWOL and Wallace wasnt used.

Ah yeah, I know.

Nukem

RuggieBear wrote: »

no need for that. pretty poor form to wish injury on anyone.

At Ruggie and Serinity
I was being highly sarcastic, would never wish an injury on anyone. Voice of experience, as I am 8 weeks out of playing with a broken ankle:mad:

ROG is a massive loss but this may be good for Ireland that we will now be forced expose a flaw in our team selection well before the world cup. Rua is going to be a massive loss against Sale.

Hopefully this is the kick in the ass they needed

sm.org wrote: »

I'm willing to put 100 euro's in a paypal holding account that Munster still have a better season then any of the other Irish provinces. If you're up for it?

Looking at how the rest of the provinces at the moment and seeing Munster are playing bad and still way ahead, It would be a stupid bet on my part. Munster with their backs to the walls is a very dangerous opponent (as history has proven). No DICE!!!!

Goose81

anonymous_joe wrote: »

He also had a habit of fookin up.

I feel sorry for lads like Hurley. They're not really good enough for the pro game, and unlike football, there's no way to stay a pro and drop down a level.

In fairness, I wouldn't call this performance a blip per se, rather I'd say Munster didn't expect Ulster to really turn up, but they've been improving steadily under Matt Williams, and this was one of their best performances in years.

I think a lot of Munster fans should realise that man for man, this current Ulster team is not much weaker than theirs. Same could be said about Leinster. Those three provinces are all quite strong, and Connact are looking better than they have done in years. However, in general, Irish rugby seems to have struggled to adapt to the new rules.

In saying that, certain players like Cave, Humph 2 (this time it's personal) and the much-maligned Paddy Wallace are looking absolutely superb. I'm really hoping to see Wallace starting in the 12 jersey come the 6 Nations. Cave on the bench or in the squad would not disappoint me either. Hell, I think the almighty Bod could do with a real rival for his starting spot. It's very early to start demanding these lads get places in the team, but it's rapidly approaching a stage where the Leinster and predominantly Munster strangehold on the national team is broken. IT seems to me that if you have players of equal skill, those playing for Munster/Leinster get called up ahead of anyone playing for Connact/Ulster/abroad.

Perhaps a 6 Nations back line of:

9. Reddan
10. O'Gara
11. Johne Murphy
12. Wallace
13. O'Driscoll
14. D'arcy/Horgan/Geordan Murphy
15. Kearney

with guys like Fitzgerald, Cave and Humphreys on the bench would inject some new spark into our back play.

I like the back line but I dont see how you can have johne murphy on the wing over fitzgerald,who hasnt performed at centre but is a better wing than murphy.I do agree murphy deserves a bench spot though.

I would also start Earls on the other wing,he has more talent than others and has done enough.I would go for

9. Reddan
10. O'Gara
11. Fitzgerald
12. Wallace
13. O'Driscoll
14. Earls
15. Kearney

BangBeater wrote: »

Munster played poor. Really poor. In fact, awful.



That's that the review of the game.



No need to mention Ulster playing well, cause, well they didn't really!

Enjoying your grapes?

Stop talking ****e.
Ulster were immence,Munster were muck but thats not why Ulster won,they were sublime.

damnyanks

Ulster ripped Munster apart. They did it from the start! When Munster destoryed other teams it wasnt because the other teams were performing poorly - it was because Munster were far superior.

It makes competition for a load of positions for Ireland now. Thats the best thing that comes from it. ROG and BOD need a wake up. Stringer and Dempsey both upped there game over the last few years when they were replaced.

Aidric

It's great that the performance and competitive levels of the Irish provinces is coming closer to par at the moment, this can only be good for the international set-up. That said Ulster fans need to calm down a little and take this performance on its merits. They played an understrength and under performing Munster. Munster lost the influence of Tipoki and to a greater extent O Gara early in the game.
One excellent performance from Ulster doesn't entitle Ulster supporters to be calling for automatic caps. They will have cause to do this when they produce the excellence of consistency that Munster have over the last number of years.
As for Munster going forward this is a great wake up call in advance of the Sale game. The loss of Tipoki for four weeks is a big blow though.

barnesd

Aidric wrote: »

It's great that the performance and competitive levels of the Irish provinces is coming closer to par at the moment, this can only be good for the international set-up. That said Ulster fans need to calm down a little and take this performance on its merits. They played an understrength and under performing Munster. Munster lost the influence of Tipoki and to a greater extent O Gara early in the game.
One excellent performance from Ulster doesn't entitle Ulster supporters to be calling for automatic caps. They will have cause to do this when they produce the excellence of consistency that Munster have over the last number of years.
As for Munster going forward this is a great wake up call in advance of the Sale game. The loss of Tipoki for four weeks is a big blow though.

So if (for example) DOC starts playing awful stuff and Caldwell is playing well, DOC should still get picked because Caldwell wasn't playing well last year or the year before? The 6N side should be picked on form, if Ulster players have been going well for 2 months before the tournament they should be in there. If Fitz is worth a game in the centre Cave definitely is, there can't be any argument over Ferris anymore, and Best should retain his place. Wallace has been around the squad for years too and has been playing well. A number of them have put their hands up for selection.

Goose81

The only ulster players that should start are ferris,best,wallace and maybe humphreys for the easier games.

Talk of anyone else is stupid.

Darren Cave has shown he can play centre but I would still rate earls and fitz as a far higher talents and would much prefer to see Earls in there if fitz is to be moved to the wing.Also Bod is playing alot better this year and will not and should not be dropped.

I wouldnt even warrant Cave a bench spot tbh,he isnt versatile at all like the other two and unlike earls he is playing his position of choice regularily and unlike fitz he is allowed to play rugby,gaffney is trying his best to make sure fitz doesnt nail that 13 or 12 spot.

maddness

As a neutral watching last night I thought it was a really great game. Munster were very poor but then again ulster played great positive rugby and were not afraid to have a go at it and did'nt resort to kick after kick.
Munster are not playing well this season ( away win at sale excepted) and O'Gara needs to be droped by Kidney. Humps would be a much better bet now. I agree with the other posters about Ireland needing a few fresh faces and Wallace and Cave have been playing very well all season ( as long as its not Trimble).
No harm seeing the Munster fans being given a dose of reality either

toomevara

jam_on_toast wrote: »

You clearly haven't been watching them play.

Realise alot of this is subjective opinion but I've watched every televised Ulster Magners/HC game this season thus far. At the start of the season Humphries struggled to make the 10 berth his own, and often gets the shepherds crook! Apart from last night I've seen nothing that marks him out as Ireland's first choice international 10 and there's no way he's in the same league as ROG. Understudy possibly...

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

Realise alot of this is subjective opinion but I've watched every televised Ulster Magners/HC game this season thus far. At the start of the season Humphries struggled to make the 10 berth his own, and often gets the shepherds crook! Apart from last night I've seen nothing that marks him out as Ireland's first choice international 10 and there's no way he's in the same league as ROG. Understudy possibly...

He only moved to Ulster over the summer and O'Connor was already playing 10 before he arrived. I dont know many coaches that will straight away drop a player who is playing in a very important player for a person who has only just arrived.

thehighground

Stev_o wrote: »

He only moved to Ulster over the summer and O'Connor was already playing 10 before he arrived. I dont know many coaches that will straight away drop a player who is playing in a very important player for a person who has only just arrived.

How come he couldn't get in front of Andy Goode in Leicester? He had a very good game in Thomond Park 2 years ago and still lost his place to Goode. I think we'd want our starting OH for Ireland to be at least able to displace Andy Goode.

Is he inconsistent?

Edit: as well as that, I think I read somewhere he was not offered a new contract at Leicester!

Goose81

thehighground wrote: »

How come he couldn't get in front of Andy Goode in Leicester? He had a very good game in Thomond Park 2 years ago and still lost his place to Goode. I think we'd want our starting OH for Ireland to be at least able to displace Andy Goode.

Is he inconsistent?

eh,Goode was quality for Leicester the last few years,thats why.

He is still I think the highest points scorer ever in the prem (sorry 2nd)and Brive are paying him some ridiculous amount of Money,so he cant be doing that bad.

thehighground

Goose81 wrote: »

eh,Goode was quality for Leicester the last few years,thats why.

He is still I think the highest points scorer ever in the prem and Brive are paying him some ridiculous amount of Money,so he cant be doing that bad.

Most people though he was a very limited player though (in the same mould as ROG ). And I think the reason he left Leicester was because he got in a huff about Hernandez being brought in and of course the cash. Good on him!

Goose81

thehighground wrote: »

Most people though he was a very limited player though (in the same mould as ROG ). And I think the reason he left Leicester was because he got in a huff about Hernandez being brought in and of course the cash. Good on him!

He was the same as Rog in that his performances for his club team werent carried on to the international stage.Luckily for England they had replacements.Ireland didnt.Although we are still very lucky to have had him all these years.

I still think O'Gara has a huge amount to give in an Ireland shirt but i think humph should be blooded this year along with Keatley getting a small amount of gametime and let rog get gametime aswell against the big teams.It can be done smarty and leaves us without this stupid position we have found ourselves in regards the 10 position for the last few years.

For example say humph starts against Italy,why not give keatley 10 minutes at the end if we are winning,the experience will build him for the future and we could end up with a trio of 10's come wc time.

Stev_o

thehighground wrote: »

How come he couldn't get in front of Andy Goode in Leicester? He had a very good game in Thomond Park 2 years ago and still lost his place to Goode. I think we'd want our starting OH for Ireland to be at least able to displace Andy Goode.

Is he inconsistent?

Edit: as well as that, I think I read somewhere he was not offered a new contract at Leicester!

Fans had huge faith in him in fact many would like him to go back to Leicester. Leffredo didnt like him and sure we all know what happened to him. The fact that Pat Howard trusted him in securing Leicester HC qualification is a testament how good they thought he was.

Andy Goode is also top points scorer of the Top14 this season and has been GP';s top points scorer for a long time

thehighground

Goose81 wrote: »

He was the same as Rog in that his performances for his club team werent carried on to the international stage.Luckily for England they had replacements.Ireland didnt.Although we are still very lucky to have had him all these years.

I still think O'Gara has a huge amount to give in an Ireland shirt but i think humph should be blooded this year along with Keatley getting a small amount of gametime and let rog get gametime aswell against the big teams.It can be done smarty and leaves us without this stupid position we have found ourselves in regards the 10 position for the last few years.

For example say humph starts against Italy,why not give keatley 10 minutes at the end if we are winning,the experience will build him for the future and we could end up with a trio of 10's come wc time.

I completely disagree with you pointing the finger for the woes of the Irish team on ROG. ROG has been the OH with the most successful ireland team we've had in the last 20 years, including a couple of Triple Crowns which are not rated anymore and defeating SH opposition here. Two years ago he was the top Try Scorer & points scorer in the 6Ns.

I really do think younger blood has to be developed, but you are not going to to them or their team mates any good by expecting Keatley/Humphreys to be able to make the jump up just like that to international level. Ease them in - we need ROG for another 2 years at least. A good tour during the summer would help them enormously away from fan's expectations would help them enormously.

thehighground

Stev_o wrote: »

Fans had huge faith in him in fact many would like him to go back to Leicester. Leffredo didnt like him and sure we all know what happened to him. The fact that Pat Howard trusted him in securing Leicester HC qualification is a testament how good they thought he was.

Andy Goode is also top points scorer of the Top14 this season and has been GP';s top points scorer for a long time

I just checked - Goode was back for the next HC game and Humphreys was on the bench and that was with Pat Howard. Since he did so well in Thomond, was meant to be rated by Howard, how come he did not get to hold onto the No 10 shirt for Leicester?

I heard a comment the other day which I thought was rather good - players who are not getting their game are usually brilliant - no one notices their mistakes! (Unlike Marcus Horan who has NOT played in Munster's last two losses, scored 2 vital trys in the HCup for Munster and some people think he should be dropped )

ROG, by the way is the Heineken Cup top points scorer and certainly the all-time Irish top points scorer (and at least 5/6 in the world of all time top points scorers!).

Goose81

thehighground wrote: »

I completely disagree with you pointing the finger for the woes of the Irish team on ROG. ROG has been the OH with the most successful ireland team we've had in the last 20 years, including a couple of Triple Crowns which are not rated anymore and defeating SH opposition here. Two years ago he was the top Try Scorer & points scorer in the 6Ns.

I really do think younger blood has to be developed, but you are not going to to them or their team mates any good by expecting Keatley/Humphreys to be able to make the jump up just like that to international level. Ease them in - we need ROG for another 2 years at least. A good tour during the summer would help them enormously away from fan's expectations would help them enormously.

Im not pointing the finger at rog,as I said "we were lucky to have him" but im saying that rog like goode is much better for club and england had other options.

Look at steven jones,unbelievable for wales and **** for his club,it happens sometimes.I agree we would have won alot less probably nothing without rog but I believe that in certain situations had we the option of a more direct running 10 then we would have benefited from them playing.

Rog will go down as a great of Irish rugby and rightfully so,but he is alot older than Bod and Poc etc and I firmly believe he wont be around for the next wc,so we need to start developing.

anonymous_joe

Goose81 wrote: »

I like the back line but I dont see how you can have johne murphy on the wing over fitzgerald,who hasnt performed at centre but is a better wing than murphy.I do agree murphy deserves a bench spot though.

I would also start Earls on the other wing,he has more talent than others and has done enough.I would go for

9. Reddan
10. O'Gara
11. Fitzgerald
12. Wallace
13. O'Driscoll
14. Earls
15. Kearney

Well I think Murphy's been one of the best players at Leicester in recent years, and has come nowhere near the Irish 22 let alone 15, which is tragic. So spite's one reason I mention him. :pac:

In fact though, the main reason is that he's doing really well. Scores lots of tries, was player of the year at Leicester last year, etc. The guys doing great on the wing. I like Fitzgerald as a player a lot, but I think he's a full back/winger not a centre. I think he's been misused this season, and his form has dropped off from the beginning of the season. I think Murphy's done more to deserve a place.

Earls in my mind is an enigma. I watch all Leinster games, and maybe half the Munster games. The kids got a lot of talent, but so do plenty of other youngsters. In my mind, he's not quite ready for Heineken Cup rugby, let alone international. In saying that, I'd love to see him get some exposure to that level, but not too much. I don't want to see him turn into the next Matt Tait, a great player, who took a heavy confidence blow after being put against one of the world's best. Give the guy time to cement a place in the Munster first team, and gradually let him play international rugby. In other countries team building is done much better than here. We seem to have an attitude that you either go for the win and pick a rake of old experienced lads, or go completely the other way and only pick youth. Earls is going to be great, but he's not there yet.

thehighground

Goose81 wrote: »

Im not pointing the finger at rog,as I said "we were lucky to have him" but im saying that rog like goode is much better for club and england had other options.

Look at steven jones,unbelievable for wales and **** for his club,it happens sometimes.I agree we would have won alot less probably nothing without rog but I believe that in certain situations had we the option of a more direct running 10 then we would have benefited from them playing.

Rog will go down as a great of Irish rugby and rightfully so,but he is alot older than Bod and Poc etc and I firmly believe he wont be around for the next wc,so we need to start developing.

We did (in this same period) - Humphs senior. I don't think we won anything significant with Humphs starting OH during that period.

We need an OH who can actually manage a game. ROG has been lucky with injuries (not putting his body on the line like BOD does maybe helped on that score ), so it is feasible that he will make it to the next rugby world cup as a back-up. EOS had planned/hoped on Humphs senior for '07 who would have been 35 at the time. ROG will be 34.

I personally would prefer Ireland to win a Grand Slam anyway and get that monkey off our backs. We have no chance of winning a GS with a rookie international OHs. A delay of six months in their development towards the next world cup to a summer tour isn't going to make too much difference. And TBH, to drop players because they might not make the next world cup (because of their age) and who might have a chance of making the Lions tour this summer and they are actually playing better than the young player you want to give international caps to is just wrong.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Well I think Murphy's been one of the best players at Leicester in recent years, and has come nowhere near the Irish 22 let alone 15, which is tragic. So spite's one reason I mention him. :pac:

In fact though, the main reason is that he's doing really well. Scores lots of tries, was player of the year at Leicester last year, etc. The guys doing great on the wing. I like Fitzgerald as a player a lot, but I think he's a full back/winger not a centre. I think he's been misused this season, and his form has dropped off from the beginning of the season. I think Murphy's done more to deserve a place.

Earls in my mind is an enigma. I watch all Leinster games, and maybe half the Munster games. The kids got a lot of talent, but so do plenty of other youngsters. In my mind, he's not quite ready for Heineken Cup rugby, let alone international. In saying that, I'd love to see him get some exposure to that level, but not too much. I don't want to see him turn into the next Matt Tait, a great player, who took a heavy confidence blow after being put against one of the world's best. Give the guy time to cement a place in the Munster first team, and gradually let him play international rugby. In other countries team building is done much better than here. We seem to have an attitude that you either go for the win and pick a rake of old experienced lads, or go completely the other way and only pick youth. Earls is going to be great, but he's not there yet.

Earls played centre (with Mafi) in Munster's away win to Sale in the Heineken Cup recently. He was up against Luke McAlister, who I suppose could be counted as one of the world's greats. With Tipoki out for 4 weeks, I suspect he will be starting for Munster there in their next 2 HCup games.

RugbyFanatic

thehighground wrote: »

I personally would prefer Ireland to win a Grand Slam anyway and get that monkey off our backs. We have no chance of winning a GS with a rookie international OHs. A delay of six months in their development towards the next world cup to a summer tour isn't going to make too much difference. And TBH, to drop players because they might not make the next world cup (because of their age) and who might have a chance of making the Lions tour this summer and they are actually playing better than the young player you want to give international caps to is just wrong.

First of all we are not going to get a grand slam under O'Gara on current form anyway. Humphreys is playing better therefore we have more of a chance of winning a grandslam under him. Secondly to not drop a player because he could go on a Lions tour when he is playing poorly is ridiculous you play the best players avaliable to win the current objective or you experiment this isn't a charity.

Secondly to those including BOD alongside ROG,Dempsey,Stringer and DOC get a grip hes top try scorer in the Heineken Cup and is the most in form centre in Europe right now. Its funny how in Britain people are talking of him being a shoe in for Lions captaincy (See Sky Poll, Sky Pundits, English rugby pundits etc.) yet in Ireland people are saying he should be dropped, unbelievable.