Luas for Cork: get the crayons out!

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

How wide is the old railway/new greenway?

AFAIK, it was built as single track, mostly in a limestone cutting.

The greenway could be maintained if it was single track, but you would need to widen the cutting to maintain it with double track. Its been a greenway for at least 25 years.

Former Blackrock station here: http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=sngf65g8ym65&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=27178203&where1=blackrock%20cork&encType=1 just might have been double track.

Typewriter

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

How wide is the old railway/new greenway?

Around Blackrock the line was first built as Irish broad gauge (5 foot 3 inches) double track but was later converted to narrow gauge (3 foot) double track (the only ever double track narrow gauge railway).



Some more pics here... http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3884925

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork,_Blackrock_and_Passage_Railway

Treora

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

Corks too small for a light railway. Both in terms of population and the size of the streets. Parking levys + ParkNRide ftw.....

Are you kidding. Google Linz, an amazing trammed city with a bus and tram exclusive corridor going down main street. It would gain respect and enable it to increase its population density.

namloc1980

green_jesus wrote: »

:eek:

I don't think so.

The old line is now a very popular well established greenway. Maybe Luas could divert into Blackrock station from the unused land on the Maria then straight out again heading up behind Aldi and towards Mahon Point. This might only be tolerated if provisions were made to keep a pedestrian right of way.

I thought about this and obviously it's not ideal. However there is approx 6km of walkway in this area (Marina to Rochestown and then around the Mahon Penninsula back to Blackrock). Using c. 2km of that as a vital public transport corridor is acceptable IMO and most of the walkway (c.4km) will remain intact. The reason to use the old line is to avoid disruption to existing roads in this area.

namloc1980

JupiterKid wrote: »

I think Cork is really the only other city in Ireland that could sustain a LUAS type light rail system. The best line IMO would be one that runs from west to east, serving the CIT, the County Hall, UCC, the City Centre, the new Docklands area (with a link to Kent Station
) and Mahon Point/Douglas.
Critical to its success would be the degree with which it interfaced with existing public transport - such as bus and rail - services. I think only 1 line with a possible spur would realistically be viable for city as small as Cork.

A link to Kent is vital. As a first step a pedestrian access onto Horgan's Quay is a must. This shouldn't be too difficult (of course we're still waiting for the station to be turned around facing onto the Quay) and would significantly cut down on walking times to the city centre / bus station.

bk

Lads, lets be realistic here, with Bus Eireann planning to cut bus services and reduce them to just 7pm, we can't even operate a very basic bus service, never mind the expense of a Luas.

For just a fraction of the cost to build a Luas, we could run a decent bus service in Cork. We really need to focus on fixing th Cork Bus Service before even thinking about a Luas.

First thing that needs to be done is get rid of BE and replace it with a dedicated Cork Bus Company (like DB), partly owned by Cork City and County councils.

Increase the number of buses, increase frequencies, new routes, bus lanes, etc. We need a service more like DB which is vastly superior to Cork Bus (Corkonian living in Dublin).

Typewriter

Interesting article here.

€ 573 Million Innovative "Tram-Train" Rail System Proposed for Cork

Tuesday September 16, 2008 15:03 by Brian Guckian.

Scheme Requires Cancellation of Proposed Northern Ring Road.

CORK City and County Councils could show genuine support for European Mobility Week and for Sustainable Transport policies in general by cancelling their unsustainable proposed Northern Ring Road scheme and spending the funds on an innovative € 573 million city- and county-wide rail system using continental European "tram-train" technology instead, a national sustainable transport researcher and campaigner, Brian Guckian, has said.

"Tram-train" technology, originally pioneered in Germany, uses rail vehicles similar to conventional trams, but which can run on the existing rail network as well as on-street. Mr. Guckian said that Cork lent itself very well to this technology as it had good penetration of conventional rail, and was also suitable for on-street light rail.

The technology combines both tram and conventional rail systems so that in future, it was possible that services could run through from Midleton, Cobh and Blarney into the city centre and on to destinations that were rail-served in the past, such as Ballincollig, Passage, Carrigaline and Bandon. The format was popular in Germany and France and was about to be trialled in the UK.

Mr. Guckian said he had carried out outline work on a wide-ranging proposal that would see 95 km of re-built railway and 29 km of adapted existing railway providing a comprehensive, genuine and sustainable tram-train network for Cork city and county. Based on cutting-edge European transport technology, it powerfully challenged the failed US-style highway-building policies of the Councils which dated from the 1960s and which were now greatly out-moded at a time of increasing fuel prices and climate change.

The proposal would also serve Cork Airport and the main industrial centres, and featured a city centre loop that would take in the main retail and leisure areas and the university. The network could also be engineered to carry freight, for which there currently was an enormous potential market as road freight became increasingly costly.

At an overall estimated cost of € 573 million, Mr. Guckian pointed out that in comparison, the proposed Northern Ring Road - which was contrary to EU policies on sustainable transport - had been estimated to cost € 500 million. He said it was time for the Councils to show courage, to "kick the roads habit" and fully embrace sustainable transport policies that included not just comprehensive rail development, but also road conversions to facilitate the development of key cycle- and pedestrian-only "Greenways" through the city. "It's time to live in the 21st century and to leave the 1960s behind", he said.

The tram-train rail system proposal could be implemented jointly by Cork City and County Councils, the Railway Procurement Agency and Iarnrod Eireann and would feature full public participation as mandated by best practice in community planning and by EU legislation.

Mr. Guckian concluded that at present Cork was a heavily roads-biased city, notwithstanding the re-opening of the short rail line to Midleton, and, like other cities, would need massive cultural and political change if it was to achieve national targets on emissions cuts and genuine reductions in car use and oil dependency.

ENDS

Contact: Brian Guckian 087 9140105 railprojects@eircom.net

markpb

bk wrote: »

First thing that needs to be done is get rid of BE and replace it with a dedicated Cork Bus Company (like DB), partly owned by Cork City and County councils.

Hopefully if ye do get a new bus company, it will be _nothing like_ DB :-)

bk

markpb wrote: »

Hopefully if ye do get a new bus company, it will be _nothing like_ DB :-)

Believe it or not, DB is vastly superior to the bus service in Cork and would be a vast improvement!!

I say that as a Corkonian living in Dublin.

dowlingm

The only way a Brian Guckian article would be interesting is if it involved him getting savaged by a flock of maurauding rabbits (what is the collective term for bunnies anyway?)

mickey rourke

namloc1980 wrote: »

Bored so I decided to get the crayons out. Here's my idea for a tram line in Cork:



Going from Left to right (west to east)



Start at CIT and come in along the Model Farm Road. It would be possible to extend the line to Ballincollig from here in future. Turn down the Wilton Road at Dennehy's Cross. A spur line could be built here to serve CUH and Bishopstown. A stop at Victoria Cross and onto the Western Road with a stop at the Mardyke. Onto a stop at the gates of UCC. Continue in the Western Road and onto Washington Street.



Stop at the Courthouse. Down Washington Street and swing onto the Grand Parade with a stop there. Down the South Mall and over the City Hall Bridge with a stop there - 2 minute walk from the Bus Station. Down the quay to Albert Quay.



Down Centre Park Rad with a stop at Docklands to cater for the 'future' Docklands development. Further stops at Centre Park Road and Páirc Uí Chaoimh. The line would then use the old Blackrock Railway line with stops at Blackrock Village, the new Eden development, the CSO and terminate at Mahon Point.

The line covers many high people traffic places such as: CIT, Model Farm Road IDA estate, Victoria Cross, UCC, City Centre, South Mall, Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Mahon Point. The line would be approx 11.5km in total.

It could link to a future second line from Blackpool to Douglas via the city centre.

Anyway just put it together for fun because there's no political will to sort out Cork's shambolic public transport system at the moment.

I like your plans, but i would have 2 lines it would be more efficent

dagetz

Cork is not too small for trams. Commute times into cork city are drastically more then they should be and this is due to the lack of public transport. This is what needs to happen.

1) The cork bus system needs to become a subsidery like in Dublin with Dublin Bus. They need to make their own profits and thus need to be profitable. The fares in Cork are way higher then they should be and therefore people avoid using the bus.

2) With regards to a water based transport system. While this is a very interesting purposal for cork moving a boat through water costs a huge amount of fuel. To move 5, 10 or even assuming that a bus would be full 50 people it is way more inefficient then a bus. Where it gets interesting is when you are moving hundreds of people using dual displacement hulls. Then it is fast and quite efficient (like in the bay area in San Fransisco) this system will work VERY well for cork in the future when it is larger as most of the city hubs are on the lee but we do not have the population base for it currently

3) With regards to the luas. Reintroducing a tram in cork city will be difficult. I do not think it is right or in the best intrest of the people to destroy whats left of corks original old railway lines. This is a very unique and beautifull aspect of cork and is used by corkonians far and wide. I myself use it quite often. A lot of the streets in cork are quite small but a one way system would work quite well on the majority of them. I would suggest running a tram down one of the lanes and setting up a one way circuit. I know this could be achieved quite readily on roads like college road where the western road is just below it so a circuit around UCC could be formed. The main hubs that need to be connected are, Ringaskiddy & Carraigaline, Cobh, Mahon, Blackpool

There is already a light rail system running to cobh, this should be made electric and although it would require changing to a different rail I think it would make most sense to keep the trains the same and make it a tram, there is a light rail system to midleton and they are working on extending it to youghal, again I think when they were rebuilding it I think they should have made the rail a Luas width but that can be changed at a later date. Patrick street and grand parade (with the new structuring) are ideal for trams to move through at slow pace unimpeeded by traffic. I think in many ways cork might be easier to "luas-ise" then dublin

corktina

i beg to differ, moving a boat though water is very cost effficent, the problem is it is also very slow.

dagetz

corktina wrote: »

i beg to differ, moving a boat though water is very cost effficent, the problem is it is also very slow.

Obviously you have never had to foot the cost for the tiny engines that power a rib or other such boats which are considerbly lighter then cars. Theres is much more drag on the vessel then a car because you are trying to push it through a liquid rather then a gas. As far as speed goes the double hulled passenger ferries that ferry people across san fran harbour clock up about 30 knots which is quite fast but i dont think you could reach that speed in cork harbour due to the fact that the channel is too narrow in many places.

JHMEG

Last time I was in Cork city I was impressed by the road network. Is there a need for any rail?

dagetz

JHMEG wrote: »

Last time I was in Cork city I was impressed by the road network. Is there a need for any rail?

Quite necessary...commute times are way above what they should be for a city/town of this size and our public transport currently is slow inefficient and expensive. As far as im concerned you public transport can not work on the same pathways/roads as the standard traffic or it will never be faster so people will never use it

Typewriter

dagetz wrote: »

Cork is not too small for trams. Commute times into cork city are drastically more then they should be and this is due to the lack of public transport. This is what needs to happen.

1) The cork bus system needs to become a subsidery like in Dublin with Dublin Bus. They need to make their own profits and thus need to be profitable. The fares in Cork are way higher then they should be and therefore people avoid using the bus.

2) With regards to a water based transport system. While this is a very interesting purposal for cork moving a boat through water costs a huge amount of fuel. To move 5, 10 or even assuming that a bus would be full 50 people it is way more inefficient then a bus. Where it gets interesting is when you are moving hundreds of people using dual displacement hulls. Then it is fast and quite efficient (like in the bay area in San Fransisco) this system will work VERY well for cork in the future when it is larger as most of the city hubs are on the lee but we do not have the population base for it currently

3) With regards to the luas. Reintroducing a tram in cork city will be difficult. I do not think it is right or in the best intrest of the people to destroy whats left of corks original old railway lines. This is a very unique and beautifull aspect of cork and is used by corkonians far and wide. I myself use it quite often. A lot of the streets in cork are quite small but a one way system would work quite well on the majority of them. I would suggest running a tram down one of the lanes and setting up a one way circuit. I know this could be achieved quite readily on roads like college road where the western road is just below it so a circuit around UCC could be formed. The main hubs that need to be connected are, Ringaskiddy & Carraigaline, Cobh, Mahon, Blackpool

There is already a light rail system running to cobh, this should be made electric and although it would require changing to a different rail I think it would make most sense to keep the trains the same and make it a tram, there is a light rail system to midleton and they are working on extending it to youghal, again I think when they were rebuilding it I think they should have made the rail a Luas width but that can be changed at a later date. Patrick street and grand parade (with the new structuring) are ideal for trams to move through at slow pace unimpeeded by traffic. I think in many ways cork might be easier to "luas-ise" then dublin

You are VERY misinformed.

dagetz

green_jesus wrote: »

You are VERY misinformed.

Care to enlighten me?
If you are talking about the light rail system running to cobh i am looking at it out my window currently, They just introduced one to midleton which i know uses the same track because they run on the same rail nearly half the way and if you are talking about things being different widths, that was the whole reason the the dart, luas and normal trains can not use eachothers rails in dublin.

If you are so confident that I am misinformed please enlighten us all on this thread how that is the case exactly

markpb

dagetz wrote: »

If you are talking about the light rail system running to cobh i am looking at it out my window currently

He is talking about different gauges - the two new lines there are heavy rail lines with Irish broad gauge, the same gauge used by Dart, Suburban and InterCity rail stock. The Luas is the only operating light-rail, standard gauge line in the country (that I know of, anyway) and can't inter-operate with the others lines in Dublin or the lines in Cork.

And yet, it doesn't matter. I don't know what the obsession with gauge is on this forum. Passengers don't care. They care about a regular, reliable and reasonably quick way of getting around a city. The width between the wheels doesn't matter a damn. It happens that Luas has a better reputation than Dart but that doesn't mean we should rip up all the heavy rail lines and replace them, the gauge has (almost) no impact on passenger satisfaction.

Stark

bk wrote: »

Believe it or not, DB is vastly superior to the bus service in Cork and would be a vast improvement!!

I say that as a Corkonian living in Dublin.

+1

dagetz

markpb wrote: »

He is talking about different gauges - the two new lines there are heavy rail lines, they're compatible with the Dart, with Suburban sock (which they are) and with InterCity rail stock. The Luas is the only light rail line in the country (that I know of, anyway) and can't inter-operate with the others lines in Dublin or the lines in Cork.

And yet, it doesn't matter. I don't know what the obsession with gauge is on this forum. Passengers don't care. They care about a regular, reliable and reasonably quick way of getting around a city. It happens that Luas (not light rail) has a better reputation in Dublin but that doesn't mean we should rip up all the heavy rail lines and replace them - there would be no improvement at all.

Ok I am 99% sure that the dart is a different gauge then the heavy rail, I agree I may have gotten my terminology messed up there, the cobh and midleton rail is the same rail as the intercity I agree but the dart is not heavy rail I am almost definite. The luas is a smaller rail in order for it to fit within car lanes and of course it would make sense to have all the sub-urban trains on the same gauge. That would mean that you can have a uniform system, meaning for example you could catch a train/tram from cobh and it would drop you in patrick street or UCC or CIT, the places people want to go rather then having to get off at the train station and transfer to a bus, that will end up much more inefficient and much more costly. A uniform system is the way to go

markpb

I know the Dart and the rest of the Irish rail stock are the same gauge because they operate on the same lines.

The only advantage to using the same gauge on all lines in a city (or country) is for ease of maintenance. You only need one depot and one set of maintenance tools. As long as you have integrated ticketing and inter-change stations, passengers won't care. Even if all the stock uses the same gauge, the lines aren't going to run from your home to your workplace, you'll probably have to change somewhere. If the width between the wheels happens to change at the same time, you won't notice or care.

The reason Luas is more popular than Dart is because it operates at a higher frequency, it operates later at night, it's more easily accessible than Dart and the staff aren't sullen and useless but not because it's light rail. The reason the Dart is technically superior to the Luas is that it can run longer trains and each train can can carry more people. You pick the right tool for the right situation, not because you have an aversion to Irish broad gauge.

Edit: If you're reason for choosing light-rail is because it can more easily penetrate the city centre than heavy-rail, that's a valid point. However, I could point you at the Los Angeles Blue Line - a heavy-rail line which runs on-street with no segregation and no level crossings. It carries 80,000 people a day which makes it very successful for Los Angeles. Unfortunately it kills several people a year.

Typewriter

dagetz wrote: »

Ok I am 99% sure that the dart is a different gauge then the heavy rail, - but the dart is not heavy rail I am almost definite.

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/C/Connolly/slides/Connolly_Station%20trains%20%2819%29.html

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/C/Connolly/slides/May%20trains%20Connolly%20%284%29.html

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Railcars%20&%20DARTs/8200%20Class/slides/8203%20at%20Killester.html

dagetz

markpb wrote: »

I know the Dart and the rest of the Irish rail stock are the same gauge because they operate on the same lines.

The only advantage to using the same gauge on all lines in a city (or country) is for ease of maintenance. You only need one depot and one set of maintenance tools. As long as you have integrated ticketing and inter-change stations, passengers won't care. Even if all the stock uses the same gauge, the lines aren't going to run from your home to your workplace, you'll probably have to change somewhere. If the width between the wheels happens to change at the same time, you won't notice or care.

The reason Luas is more popular than Dart is because it operates at a higher interval, it operates later at night, it's more easily accessible than Dart but not because it's light rail. The reason the Dart is technically superior to the Luas is that it can run longer trains and can carry more people. You pick the right tool for the right situation, not because you have an aversion to Irish broad gauge.

Edit: Ok i admit I was wrong about the dart. Sorry

But really guy? the reason the luas is sucessfull is because it goes to the right places. Suburb to city center not because of its frequency. If the demand was not there it would have a shorter frequency. The demand is there because it goes to all the places you want to go...heuston, henry street etc. where is the train station in cork...up so hill away from everything. It would of course be possible to continue that line down the road and hook it into the top of patrick street. The roads there are quite wide and can easily accomodate this. I know for a fact I would not use this service if I have to change from a train to a bus. The zonal system in dublin is perfect. They need that here with a luas..not buses..buses are slow and cumbersome

JHMEG

dagetz wrote: »

Ok I am 99% sure that the dart is a different gauge then the heavy rail,

Aside from the Luas there is no light rail in Ireland. Only heavy rail.

dagetz wrote: »

The luas is a smaller rail in order for it to fit within car lanes

The Luas is a smaller gauge, called standard gauge. The Luas is standard because standard is cheaper.

dagetz wrote: »

A uniform system is the way to go

It would be, but like having two official languages, it's a remnant of the Empire.

dagetz

JHMEG wrote: »

Aside from the Luas there is no light rail in Ireland. Only heavy rail.


The Luas is a smaller gauge, called standard gauge. The Luas is standard because standard is cheaper.


It would be, but like having two official languages, it's a remnant of the Empire.

Ok yeah standard might be cheaper but im pretty sure the heavy rail is too wide for car lanes, i remember it being dicussed on the news when they were putting it in.

Well thats why I am saying they should have cobh and midleton trains running on the luas lines and then all the intercity running on the heavy rail. I dont understand why when they were putting in the new midleton line that they didnt use standard gauge, especially if you said its cheaper, it doesnt need to be heavy its not carrying any cargo

markpb

dagetz wrote: »

the reason the luas is sucessfull is because it goes to the right places. Suburb to city center not because of its frequency. If the demand was not there it would have a shorter frequency.

Dart carries 80,000 people a day, Luas carries 90,000 so I wouldn't say one was vastly more successful than the other - Luas just has a better reputation. Dart is stymied by the fact that it shares track with Suburban and Intercity trains, by a Victorian-era signalling system, the lack of decent-sized P&R and the fact that it's run by Irish Rail.

For what it's worth, I agree that light rail would be more appropriate for new lines in Cork, purely because I don't believe Cork has the population density to pay for or support the capacity that a heavy rail line offers. However, I think you're making the mistake of thinking that a bad bus service makes all bus services bad. If the local authority don't provide bus priority, if the Gardai don't enforce parking regulations and if the bus company are poor, you'll end up with a slow and cumbersome bus system. If you have a well designed bus network, good priority and a customer-responsive bus operator, you can have a bus service that's as good as light rail but for a fraction of the cost.

dagetz wrote: »

Well thats why I am saying they should have cobh and midleton trains running on the luas lines and then all the intercity running on the heavy rail. I dont understand why when they were putting in the new midleton line that they didnt use standard gauge

They didn't "put it in", the line was already there and the stock already owned. Doing it with light rail would mean spending years digging up the (expensively installed) heavy rail and signalling and buying new stock. And after wasting all that money, you'd end up with a system that can't carry as many people.

dagetz

markpb wrote: »

Dart carries 80,000 people a day, Luas carries 90,000 so I wouldn't say one was more successful than the other. Dart is stymied by the fact that it shares track with Suburban and Intercity trains, by a Victorian-era signalling system, the lack of decent-sized P&R and the fact that it's run by Irish Rail.

For what it's worth, I agree that light rail would be more appropriate for Cork, purely because I don't believe Cork has the population density to pay for or support the capacity that a heavy rail line offers. However, I think you're making the mistake of thinking that a bad bus service makes all bus services bad. If the local authority don't provide bus priority, if the Gardai don't enforce parking regulations and if the bus company are poor, you'll end up with a slow and cumbersome bus system.

If you have a well designed bus network, good priority and a customer-responsive bus operator, you can have a bus service that's as good as light rail but for a fraction of the cost.

I agree totally with the bus system but they need to run in proper bus lanes to make it effective...I cant see them putting them but I can see them putting in luas line like in dublin where most of the line is exclusive to the luas and cars are banned from it. This means the luas is faster then the city traffic and at that point you get people thinking if I use public transport i will actually get where i want to go faster and that is the sign of a good public transport system

Also the bus service is SO expensive in Cork compared to dublin. They need to do exactly what they did with DB and make it its own company. I think this would drive down the prices a bit as they would need to make a profit in their own right. If they could do all these things I think buses are the way to go although i would also like to see them electrified like in europe where they have hybrid engines. When they are attached to the cables the diesel is turned off and only engaged when it enters an area where there are no electric lines over head

JHMEG

dagetz wrote: »

I dont understand why when they were putting in the new midleton line that they didnt use standard gauge, especially if you said its cheaper, it doesnt need to be heavy its not carrying any cargo

Same reason they're re-doing the Navan line in Irish gauge - because it connects to the existing Irish gauge network.

dagetz

JHMEG wrote: »

Same reason they're re-doing the Navan line in Irish gauge - because it connects to the existing Irish gauge network.

I guess I just think they should be treating midlleton and cobh as suburban not as intercity is all. I think they should be looking ahead and preparing for the future.