Over Harsh on Leinster

Tim Robbins

louthandproud wrote: »

The praise I have read in the media for Munsters win was based on the fact that they didn't panic, stuck to their guns and pulled it off, victory from the jaws of defeat and all that, not the other way around which is what Leinster are being criticised for.

Yes but big deal. Munster play a good territory game, have a pack that know each other inside out (and god knows how many internatial caps between them) and a world class kicker. So big deal, they beat a 14 man French team at home, that they were hot favourites to beat before the game.

Why do people / media have to go on and on and on and on and on and on about it?

Leinster, who I certainly felt only had about a 65% chance of winning (otherwise I would have put money on it) that game before the game, didn't. They lost it by a score.

Suppose CA didn't geta player sent off. Beat Munster coz their pack didn't tire out. And Castres had a player sent off which meant Leinster came home against them.

What then?

What we are talking about is thin lines between success and failure. Some of it is luck, some of it just because you are better.

But to the media, it's all chalk and cheese - cr*p.

I remember Castres beat Munster in a pool game a few years back. Different reaction from the media then.

Amz

CJhaughey wrote: »

Leinster would do well to take a leaf from the Munster book and use criticism as a motivational tool, instead of complaining about it.

Er, I don't believe any of the people posting to complain about, what they feel to be overly harsh reporting, actually play for Leinster, so to say that is a bit much.

Stev_o

There's big pressure of Leinster's shoulders this year even more then last. They were a mile ahead of any other team in the Magners League bar none and lets not talk crap about teams not caring because they still went about putting a huge distance between themselves and second. They hammered Castre's at home playing miserably, a few people said they needed to get their act together before going away as they ll have the kitchen sink thrown at them. They obviously didnt and we got a very stagnant performance against a Castre side more up for it in terms of most of the aspects of the game.

The squad Leinster have this year is extremely impressive on paper there's names on the sheet which are world class players or very impressive club players but then on the pitch its all bit meh cant tell the difference. As i said alot is expected of them maybe too much but generally most people complain about the same old things match in match out, players clearly unfit,players being played out of position and the game plan being so so so very wrong.

Look Leinster are a class act as iv said they have the players but alot of people including myself think the management setup is wrong and there lies the fundamental problem

SpAcEd OuT

I think there is this sort of working class hero, righteous Munster image that the press loves to churn out whilst some (like Francis the other day) seem to paint Leinster as snobby, primadonnas however it really has nothing to do with the actual rugby and both images are undeserved by both provinces but especially Leinsters whose image seems to be one wholly negative.I do believe there is a sort of Munster painted as the good guys whilst Leinster the baddies in the media but I can't really put my finger on one particular article which is an example as its all very subtle.

Go to Munsterfans.com and look at posts regarding Leinster and then go to Leinsterfans.com and look at posts regarding Munster. On Leinsterfans posts regarding Munster are generally respectful whilst on Munsterfans posts regarding Leinster generally go on about how Leinster are ladyboys, O'Driscolls fakes injury for camera time, the players are only there for the money and don't care etc. and these feelings are brought about by the media whether they know it or not.

corny

The outcome of Munster and Leinster games over the weekend fit perfectly into the established stereotype. Munster, showing great character to eek out their victory and Leinster just pipped at the last. The media reaction to either is always over the top. I'd read nothing into the criticism.

louthandproud

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Y
Why do people / media have to go on and on and on and on and on and on about it?

No one more so than yourself it seems.


As I said it isn't a case of praising Muster for beating 14 men but rather praise for sticking to their guns, holding shape etc. Well deserved praise I might add.

I agree with a previous poster, Leinster should use the criticism not moan about it. I wish Leinster could deal with their problems(or not) here and else where without continuously moaning about what Munster can or can't do etc. etc. etc.

Truly tiresome, Lenister need to stand up and be counted as Leinster. Not as Munsters local rivals.

Next thing I'll be hearing here is that the Irish media are biased towards Limerick, the irony is pretty thick really.

premierstone

Stev_o wrote: »

Look Leinster are a class act as iv said they have the players but alot of people including myself think the management setup is wrong and there lies the fundamental problem

I really dont want to start any petty sh*te that goes on too much here as is and am just given this as an opinion from a non- leinster supporter* do you not think the old trick of blaming the management set up has been done too many times before?

Also an interesting side note - the two candidates for the captaincy of Ireland have now both let their teams down imo by playing when clearly not fit - O'Connell limping around croker and BOD was no where near fit enough to start on Friday night

* Just to clarify I love to see Leinster doing well what I meant was they are not my first team.

Stev_o

premierstone wrote: »

I really dont want to start any petty sh*te that goes on too much here as is and am just given this as an opinion from a non- leinster supporter* do you not think the old trick of blaming the management set up has been done too many times before?

Also an interesting side note - the two candidates for the captaincy of Ireland have now both let their teams down imo by playing when clearly not fit - O'Connell limping around croker and BOD was no where near fit enough to start on Friday night

* Just to clarify I love to see Leinster doing well what I meant was they are not my first team.

Not really Leinster have had Cheika for what 3 years now? Or something along those lines and all they have to show for it is a one title. I mean they were at their peak at 06 and then it all went wrong and they got no returns for the best rugby they'v ever played.

Sure its the same argument we all went on and on and on about with Eddie, had so many talented players, had great oportunities but at the end of the reigns all he had to show was a few Triple Crowns which people saw as worthless come the second time around. The same applies to Leinster

louthandproud

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

I think there is this sort of working class hero, righteous Munster image that the press loves to churn out whilst some (like Francis the other day) seem to paint Leinster as snobby, primadonnas however it really has nothing to do with the actual rugby and both images are undeserved by both provinces but especially Leinsters whose image seems to be one wholly negative.I do believe there is a sort of Munster painted as the good guys whilst Leinster the baddies in the media but I can't really put my finger on one particular article which is an example as its all very subtle.

Go to Munsterfans.com and look at posts regarding Leinster and then go to Leinsterfans.com and look at posts regarding Munster. On Leinsterfans posts regarding Munster are generally respectful whilst on Munsterfans posts regarding Leinster generally go on about how Leinster are ladyboys, O'Driscolls fakes injury for camera time, the players are only there for the money and don't care etc. and these feelings are brought about by the media whether they know it or not.

If it's to be a who loves who the most competition, then Leinster must be the winners based on this comment.

There certainly is a view that in Dublin rugby is somewhat elitist and isn't in Limerick. I agree with this in that it is about 75% the case in reality. Dublin is also the Capital and like Capitals in all our neighboring countries is subject to a bit of provincial bitterness, not just a rugby thing.

Get over it! Move on. Bragging rights are with Munster right now, it probably won't always be like that.

Chucky the tree

Here's a couple of posts from the match thread, all Leinster fans as far as I know.

Going Forward wrote: »

So IMO

1) Sean O'Brien was very unlucky not to get that spot. While Elsom and Heaslip were great in the loose, our ability to protect ball and turn it over was SEVERELY lacking.

2)At times Whitaker was faster than he had been in previous matches, an yet at other periods he was slow as hell. He's still our best scrummie so hey, whatcha gonna do about it.

3)What was the story with Van Der Linde? Sorely missed.

4)Having two players who were suffering from injuries until last week backfired. Contepomi was good in the loose but suffered majorly as a ten.

Finally, that was, unless leinster can get a bonus point away to a still misfiring wasps, the biggest throw away of a home quarter final i've ever seen.

RuggieBear wrote: »

samestory as the whole season tbh....flashes of brilliance but contunualy ****ing it up with a terrible knock on or some other silly mistake. Can't remeber how many poinbts we missed from kicks...double digits anyway. Not going to win anything with out a decent kicker.

i thought the ref was bad too tbh but then i haven't seen a replay and everyone on here thinks he favoured Leinster Seemed to me that leinster were justly penalised for offences but castre got away with the same infringements. Ithought the final penalty of the game summed it up tbh

[Jackass] wrote: »

Leinster are out of the heineken cup now.

Even a losing bonus in wasps and a 5 point v Edinburgh may not be enough, which we wont even get, but if we do get it we wont beat the 1st / 2nd seed in the quarters away.

Another gutless, heartless, pussy, no aggression performance with no leadership, no one stepping up that has summed up Leinster rugby for the last 10 years.

Absolute disgrace and I think unless we turn this around and get a semi / final / win in the HEC this year Cheika should go, the team has not progressed and terrible selections have taken place over the last couple of years, gutless calls from the coach and poor game plans. We will go out this year by the way because we didn't get the bonus at home v Castres. Yet being conservative at home and taking 3 points when 9 points up against a team who hasn't set foot in our half was still the right call if you ask the coach who hasn't made a leader out of one player to know otherwise.

Absolutely disgracful result against a poort team and heads should roll. Sick to death of this and we need a coach who will b0llock the fu*k out of this team and get them playing.

Also having no kicker has cost us again. For the one millionth time.

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

god that would rival Munster's game against Montauban absolutely dreadful.

Turn over after turn over isn't that what Jennings is supposed to be in there to prevent?

Gaffney needs to be talked to his idea of a flat blackline is delusional.

Chucky the tree

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yes but big deal. Munster play a good territory game, have a pack that know each other inside out (and god knows how many internatial caps between them) and a world class kicker. So big deal, they beat a 14 man French team at home, that they were hot favourites to beat before the game.

Why do people / media have to go on and on and on and on and on and on about it?

Leinster, who I certainly felt only had about a 65% chance of winning (otherwise I would have put money on it) that game before the game, didn't. They lost it by a score.

What we are talking about is thin lines between success and failure. Some of it is luck, some of it just because you are better.

Hot favouirtes? In who's eyes? 14 men or not, Munster looked dead and buried at the end of that match, but they managed pull the win out, that's what was so impressive. Leinster should of cruised to victory against Castes, but they didnt. Are you telling me that was a good Leinster performance on friday?


The problem with the thin line of success and failure when it comes to the HEC Munster have always crossed that line, while Leinster have always fell just short of it. Even as a reletively neutral Munster fan it's frustrating too see, If I was a Leinster fan I'd be doing my nut.

Crash

CJhaughey wrote: »

Leinster would do well to take a leaf from the Munster book and use criticism as a motivational tool, instead of complaining about it.

Pff, if you mean the teams, then I think thats a pretty unfair statement to make.

If you mean the posters on here, then I think you should have a read of the NUMEROUS threads and posts where someone criticises Leinster, and gets told they're just munster bandwagoners, or someone criticises Munster, and gets told they have blue eyed glasses on.

There are a dwindling number of people on this forum each year who can actually take criticism of their team at all, and either accept it or debate it like adults.

SpAcEd OuT

louthandproud wrote: »

There certainly is a view that in Dublin rugby is somewhat elitist and isn't in Limerick. I agree with this in that it is about 75% the case in reality. Dublin is also the Capital and like Capitals in all our neighboring countries is subject to a bit of provincial bitterness, not just a rugby thing.

Well if we are to talk about Munster rugby then Cork is just as elitist as Dublin and in Limerick it is still the case that the top rugby schools are private. Outside of Dublin however, just like outside of Cork, it is not elitist.
So I never understood where this idea of Leinster rugby being elitist when compared to Munster rugby came from oh and I don't mind at all to be honest I am just pointing out that yes there is bias towards Munster in the sense I have mentioned in my previous post.

Chucky the tree

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Well if we are to talk about Munster rugby then Cork is just as elitist as Dublin and in Limerick it is still the case that the top rugby schools are private. Outside of Dublin however, just like outside of Cork, it is not elitist.
So I never understood where this idea of Leinster rugby being elitist when compared to Munster rugby came from oh and I don't mind at all to be honest I am just pointing out that yes there is bias towards Munster in the sense I have mentioned in my previous post.

The top rugby schools arent private in Limerick. Muncins isnt private which is probaly the best, or best known. Castletroy won the double last year and they arent private.

stan smith

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone else think the media are being over harsh on Leinster?

If we were told at the beginning of the season we'd have 15 points after four games, we'd probably have taken that. If were told we'd have more points than the other provences at this stage, we'd have taken that too.

We were missing, Cullen, Van Der Linde, D'Arcy, Horgan. Contemponi and BOD were obviously not fully fit. Dito Isa. If Sexton slotted a few more kicks we would have won the game. We could have won, if Holwell was picked but Sexton got was given his chance which is god for his development

And afterall, no team rarely wins all six pool matches.

anybody read the tribune last sunday on the leinster match.neil francis really went all out on leinster.twas some good journalism.

louthandproud

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Well if we are to talk about Munster rugby then Cork is just as elitist as Dublin and in Limerick it is still the case that the top rugby schools are private. Outside of Dublin however, just like outside of Cork, it is not elitist.
So I never understood where this idea of Leinster rugby being elitist when compared to Munster rugby came from oh and I don't mind at all to be honest I am just pointing out that yes there is bias towards Munster in the sense I have mentioned in my previous post.

Limerick and Dublin are the home base for the respective teams, and the place they are most associated with.

BTW the top rugby schools in Limerick are not private. I went to one of them.

But since you bring it up, schools rugby in Leinster and the hype(sh1te)that goes with it is one of the reasons why rugby is viewed by many as elitist in Leinster. I would hazard a guess that there are more people with that view in Leinster than outside it.

Anyway it's off topic.

Personally I think Leinster deserve their critics at the moment (whatever about Munster, who or how did Munster get brought into this debate anyway), Leinster undoubtedly even under strength have huge individual talent that isn't being summed up to make a great team like it should be.

louthandproud

Going Forward wrote: »

Pff, if you mean the teams, then I think thats a pretty unfair statement to make.

Why do you think that? As I said above the team isn't performing to the sum of its parts, I think they need to hear that, it's not nice to hear but true. It can't do them any harm, they definitely look like they need something to get them firing. Many teams have in the past used negative media commentary to motivate themselves, why would it be unfair for Leinster to do so?

Crash

Because he stated that they were complaining about it. Which they're not. Nor have they ever. And so how the hell does said poster have a CLUE what Leinster use to motivate themselves?

crisco10

louthandproud wrote: »

Personally I think Leinster deserve their critics at the moment (whatever about Munster, who or how did Munster get brought into this debate anyway), Leinster undoubtedly even under strength have huge individual talent that isn't being summed up to make a great team like it should be.

QFT. Espeically the highlighted bit.

I think Leinster do deserve a certain amount of criticism, they have not learnt from the mistakes of the past and seem to repeat things over and over. For instance, Castres at home this season was very simliar to Edinburgh at home last season in the HC. A lack of cut throatness to get the BP required...

louthandproud

Going Forward wrote: »

Because he stated that they were complaining about it. Which they're not. Nor have they ever. And so how the hell does said poster have a CLUE what Leinster use to motivate themselves?

Okay point taken, but I think the gist of the post is that the team should use it and not complain about it, which I would agree with, if the poster means that they are complaining about it I'd say that was untrue.

I guess none mere rugby fans of us know what motivates them or what they complain about or not but anything that can help to motivate Leinster right now I would imagine is to be welcomed.

Amazotheamazing

If the players are good enough then they are under-achieving, and they deserve criticism.

or

The players are good enough, but the coaches can't get the best from them, Leinster coaches deserve criticism.

or

The players are over-rated and not up to it. The press deserves criticism for building them up.

Whatever way you want to look at it, the HEC is in it's 14th year, and Leinster have only briefly looked capable of winning it. Does that failure merit criticism?

anonymous_joe

TarfHead wrote: »

Do good teams get beaten up by teams they're 'still better than' ?

All the time. It happens in every sport. Leagues would be very dull otherwise.

The Leinster back line may have had better potential than their counterparts in Castres, but they didn't execute, so potential is academic.

But that's not the point - people are complaining because they know of that potential.

Leinster lost a game they should won. Munster won a game they should have lost.

Munster earned their praise; Leinster earned their criticism.

Ignoring Munster, I've criticised Leinster too. I think the team is nowhere near achieving what it could and should do.

louthandproud wrote: »

Don't think anyone would argue with the quality of Leinster's players, on paper they should have maximum points given the poor standard of the rest of their group.

Although Neil Francis was probably a bit OTT in his criticism in the tribune yesterday and last week (don't know what the rest of the pundits have been saying) it seems to me his criticism is born out of frustration that the above set (weather all fit or not ) should be doing better given their on-paper pedigree. They do seem to have touch of Ireland'itus (whatever that is) right now. However if they can go and win at Wasp's they still have abig chance to redeem themselves.

And really I don't think harsh criticism can do too much harm at this point, perhaps if they read some of it they might wake up and smell the coffee and start playing for the team, same goes for Ireland. Jury is still out on Munster at the moment they seem to do just enough but still aren't playing anything close 80 minutes of their potential game, or even half of it, they will also need to be careful or their European title might be gone sooner than expected.

I think Ireland-itis has caught a hold on a few players alright. Even some non-Irish ones. :P

Currently, Leinster reminds me a bit of Arsenal. I know cross sport analogies are a bit weak, but the similarity is that there's loads of talent, but no killer instinct/will to win/passion/delete as applicable.

I think all 4 Irish provinces would benefit hugely from objective criticism. I've seen little of it in the media.

Traditionally, Connact get ignored, Ulster get little coverage, and then Munster get the most coverage (most successful, have most fans) which usually talks about passion etc, while Leinster get lots of coverage talking about not quite making it. I've never really seen any indepth examination of any of the provinces, talking about how and why they play the way they do.

In fact, the renaissance at Ulster that seems to be taking place I've seen nothing of, while Munster and Leinster get the same old clichés no matter what happens, and then Connacht are as usual being ignored. Seems all quite pointless.

Tim Robbins

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Hot favouirtes? In who's eyes? 14 men or not, Munster looked dead and buried at the end of that match, but they managed pull the win out, that's what was so impressive. Leinster should of cruised to victory against Castes, but they didnt. Are you telling me that was a good Leinster performance on friday?

It's easier to beat 14 men at home than 15 men away.
Usually.

The problem with the thin line of success and failure when it comes to the HEC Munster have always crossed that line, while Leinster have always fell just short of it. Even as a reletively neutral Munster fan it's frustrating too see, If I was a Leinster fan I'd be doing my nut.

Munster have been the better team most of the time. I don't have a problem with that. What annoys me far more is the way the media seem to lap it up for Munster, praise them for winning games that they should no way loose.
And for giving Leinster a very hard time, telling them their failures unless they win every match.

Tim Robbins

stan smith wrote: »

anybody read the tribune last sunday on the leinster match.neil francis really went all out on leinster.twas some good journalism.

That's a bit sad. Just if a hack goes all out on a team, it makes it good journalism?

Amazotheamazing

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's a bit sad. Just if a hack goes all out on a team, it makes it good journalism?

Well what do you want to hear?

That Healy isn't up to HEC rugby yet? That Toner and Mal are too lightweight, the Elsom is here for the paycheck, that Jennings is a shadow of his former self, that Heaslip has been in a slump since the summer, that Whitaker is a waste of a contract, that Sexton can't kick goals, that Contepomi can't control games, that Fitz isn't a 12, that BOD isn't fit, that Kearney isn't a winger?

What level of criticism is fair?

Tim Robbins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Whatever way you want to look at it, the HEC is in it's 14th year, and Leinster have only briefly looked capable of winning it. Does that failure merit criticism?

* The year they won the inaugural Celtic League, they were far better than Munster and lost to Leicester because they were plagued with injuries.
* Another year Williams took us to the semis and we would have won if Spooner was fully fit.
* The year we lost to Munster in Semi's was a great year. We played some outstanding Rugby and lost to arguably the best 10 man team ever to play club Rugby.
* The first year or second year of the Cup we made the semi's.

Only one team out of 24 can win it. Yes Munster are better, have been better and they deserve kudos for that. But the Leinster bashing, of what are an Irish team, producing great Irish Rugby players is out of line.

Who cares if most of them went to private schools. There's tonnes of great Rugby clubs around the province and if anyone wants to play the sport there's club within reach. No-one's going to turn you away because you don't wear boat shoes. Any time someone comes into the Rugby forum here looking for a club, look at all the the positive help the get. No-one says no private school, no game.

So let's just stop the moaning and try to look at some positives.

Tim Robbins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Well what do you want to hear?

That Healy isn't up to HEC rugby yet? That Toner and Mal are too lightweight, the Elsom is here for the paycheck, that Jennings is a shadow of his former self, that Heaslip has been in a slump since the summer, that Whitaker is a waste of a contract, that Sexton can't kick goals, that Contepomi can't control games, that Fitz isn't a 12, that BOD isn't fit, that Kearney isn't a winger?

What level of criticism is fair?

Objective journalism usually balances positives with negatives. When you hear only negatives, it's just a rant.

There's always a positive in every story and there's always a negative in every story.

If I read something that is just all negative or all positive, I get very suspicious.
W.r.t. to Leinster bashing, I just don't think it's fair. Some of tripe completely ignores obvious positives. It's unfair to people involved with Leinster Rugby whether they be player, fan, coach etc.

anonymous_joe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Objective journalism usually balances positives with negatives. When you hear only negatives, it's just a rant.

There's always a positive in every story and there's always a negative in every story.

If I read something that is just all negative or all positive, I get very suspicious.
W.r.t. to Leinster bashing, I just don't think it's fair. Some of tripe completely ignores obvious positives. It's unfair to people involved with Leinster Rugby whether they be player, fan, coach etc.

A lot of people have bought into Munster because of the success. Every journalist knows that. Added to that, there's a lot of people who'll happily stick the boot into Leinster because they're still perceived as the elitist D4 types. Mocking them's popular sadly.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

That Healy isn't up to HEC rugby yet? That Toner and Mal are too lightweight, the Elsom is here for the paycheck, that Jennings is a shadow of his former self, that Heaslip has been in a slump since the summer, that Whitaker is a waste of a contract, that Sexton can't kick goals, that Contepomi can't control games, that Fitz isn't a 12, that BOD isn't fit, that Kearney isn't a winger?

I don't agree with the Toner thing, but that aside that's a reasonably accurate assessment, which is depressing.

I think people need to ignore the criticism of Leinster and praise of Munster thing - it's always going to happen. Had Leinster been in the same position as Munster I imagine the general gist of articles would be that they nearly ****ed up as opposed to grinding out a win when they should have lost (and quite frankly, I can't imagine many Munster fans were happy with game).
Whatever is said about the Leinster game, and however close they were to winning it, none of that hides the fact that the performances have been poor almost all year. Leinster were not good against Castres at home, regardless of the scoreline. They'll get out of the group, but if they don't improve its all academic as they aren't going to go very far.

thehighground

I read Franno's piece in the Tribune and thought he was just over the top. I also heard Trevor Brennan who was at the match on Sports Call and he was defending Leinster with fairly constructive criticism.

Not all press is negative (from Irish Times Friday 12 Dec).

Leinster are the real deal so get on at 6 to 1
There was serious moaning after Leinster's win last week, but there was still plenty to cheer, writes Liam Toland

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2008/1212/1228864714969.html

In my opinion, it looks like no one is capable of coaching Leinster - too many coaches have failed at this stage. The Leinster players, if they are as good as they think they are, need to start looking at themselves at this stage.

Cheika (along with Gaffney) have done their best and failed (even with getting out of their group). I think a Jake White (rather than a Matt Williams) type coach who would take no nonsense and inspire confidence might be the answer at this stage.