Over Harsh on Leinster

Tim Robbins

Anyone else think the media are being over harsh on Leinster?

If we were told at the beginning of the season we'd have 15 points after four games, we'd probably have taken that. If were told we'd have more points than the other provences at this stage, we'd have taken that too.

We were missing, Cullen, Van Der Linde, D'Arcy, Horgan. Contemponi and BOD were obviously not fully fit. Dito Isa. If Sexton slotted a few more kicks we would have won the game. We could have won, if Holwell was picked but Sexton got was given his chance which is god for his development.

And afterall, no team rarely wins all six pool matches.

Serenity Now!

Oh they've been banging on about them with the arrogance of a supporter who thinks their team should never lose. Leinster have 3 wins out of 4 with 3 bonus points and lead the table with two games to play. Had they strolled the group the pundits would be saying they've no chance in the playoff stages as they haven't been tested yet etc...etc

I've never taken a pundit seriously anyway. They're basically forum posters who get paid to blurt whatever springs to mind and earns them profile.

ch2008

Completely agree.if they play badly fair enough,but it goes over the top with articles like neil francis yesterday in the tribund. At the last leinster v Munster game i had to endure the guy beside me shouting ''why don't you go get the dort'' and ''where's your cappuccino now?''. Now i don't care if your a lady boy or a cabbage sandwich muncher,a d4 head or a stab-city head,i'm just there to watch the rugby.articles like this are just bringing more bs into the game.francis should know better

Timothy Bryce

I think a lot of the writers are justified in what they're printing. On paper Leinster could beat absolutely anyone - and with the players that were brought in, you'd expect them to be able grind out victories when they're not playing well.

Yes, players are missing with injury etc, but Leinster have quality individuals to take their place, unlike many other H-Cup teams. They make horrific decisions at crucial times (eg. against Castres BOD kicking that penalty with arguably the best left peg in Europe less than 10 feet away).

By making the big name signings they've brought pressure on themselves to compete at a higher level which the big players seem to have issue when it comes to stepping up.

toomevara

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I've never taken a pundit seriously anyway. They're basically forum posters who get paid to blurt whatever springs to mind and earns them profile.

Ah, nirvana!

ch2008

Thats fair criticism. It's reasoned and backed up with fact. Its just a lot of articles aren't.when Munster beat leinster there was three pages in the times.when leinster beat Munster there was half a page.there are more Munster fans in the country so they'll sell more papers with articles praising Munster and leinster articles entitled ''leinster ladyboys''. People will pick up what they want to read,not the truth.
The two lowest circulation days in the last ten years for the sun in england were both days when england were knocked out of major tournaments.people will read what they want to read and the papers write to meet that expectation

old boy

a lot of the problem i think is that some players are over hyped, supporters believeing blindly that because these guys are so good all leinster have to do is to turn up, players have to gel, also they have to stand up and be counted, a team game has no room for prima donnas, what is required is guys who back each other up, fight for each other, and espically no verbals to team mates, if a player cannot encourage they should say nothing, a long time ago when i started out coaching, i said to another coach that i had a couple for good players, i was told that in their own patch they may be good, 10 miles down the road they may be reasonably good, but when they reach the next city it is then that i would find out what i have.

gcgirl

15 points after 4 games 1 match loss so far is not bad it was good to see cian healy get a game! The media should lay off leinster in stead of always being a monkey on their back !

toomevara

gcgirl wrote: »

15 points after 4 games 1 match loss so far is not bad it was good to see cian healy get a game! The media should lay off leinster in stead of always being a monkey on their back !

Think there's an element of truth in that gc, but you have to say (as long as we're using back-related metaphors) that Leinster don't half contribute in giving the media a rod for aforementioned body part!

It isn't, as I've said before, the fact of the loss, it's the manner of it. Now any team can suffer a loss of form, and I'm sure Leinster will bang their heads together and come back ( I for one look forward to eating me hat), but I reckon the stuff I've read this weekend was pretty much on the money, one or two pieces of silly hyperbole, from the usual suspects, aside...

zenmonk

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone else think the media are being over harsh on Leinster?

If we were told at the beginning of the season we'd have 15 points after four games, we'd probably have taken that. If were told we'd have more points than the other provences at this stage, we'd have taken that too.

We were missing, Cullen, Van Der Linde, D'Arcy, Horgan. Contemponi and BOD were obviously not fully fit. Dito Isa. If Sexton slotted a few more kicks we would have won the game. We could have won, if Holwell was picked but Sexton got was given his chance which is god for his development.

And afterall, no team rarely wins all six pool matches.

More points than the other provinces?
Don't make me laugh. Look at the groups. Clermont and Sale in Munster's Stade and Quins and Scarlets in Ulsters!
Leinster have Wasps - that's it Wasps.
Leinster have by far the easiest draw of all the Irish teams.
Would anyone put money on Leinster getting out of the groups that the other Irish teams find themselves in?

Pshan

Have you read the thread on the Catres/Leinster match on this forum? There's a lot of supporters laying into the team and management, hardly fair to single out the media as being over harsh on Leinster. One even suggests that it's, all over for them now. I still think Leinster will make the QF but they haven't done their chances of a home QF any good and if it's not at Munster's expense then I hope they go further.

BTW - their performances this year in the H/Cup haven't been great even in walloping Wasps, as someone mentioned elsewhere, they're the best ****e team of the four in the group and that about sums them up for this year.

anonymous_joe

It's an interesting point...

Allow the bias and blind hope of a fan here.

Last season, we won the Magner's League, and beat Munster quite handily in the process. The HC was a huge disappointment, but all the signs were there that Leinster were coming together.

So the rumours are (last season) that Rocky Elsom and CJ van der Linde are going to Leinster. Given our loss of Gleeson and lack of world class players in teh front row for any Irish team, those two signings looked magnificent. Injuries aside, a Leinster team full strength could be...

15. Kearney (or Dempsey)
14. Horgan (or Kearney - form dependant)
13. BOD
12. Gordon D'arcy
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Contepomi
9. Whitaker

8. Heaslip
7. Jennings
6. Rocky Elsom
5. Mal
4. Leo Cullen
3. CJ
2. Jackman
1. Stan Wright

Now look at that team - every single back's an international. And some good players on the bench too. Most of the pack is of international standard. Jennings at Leicester was almighty, with him and Elsom in the backrow, as well as the massive talent of Heaslip, it looks on paper to be the best backrow in Europe. The front five is as strong a Leinster one as there's been in years. As for that backline, come on, there's no-one who could touch it other than maybe Toulouse.

That team has not actually ever lined up for Leinster. Injuries have been a problem - Leo Cullen's a massive loss for one thing - and so has a huge lack of form. Van der Linde's been mediocre. The pack has at times looked a bit weak. Whitaker's been slow at moving the ball out, out-half's been a problem all season...

That Leinster team on form has as much chance to win the HC as anyone. In terms of talent, only teams near them would be Munster, Ospreys and Toulouse. Stade Leicester and all the old guard would always be capable of doing some damage, but as is the way of the HC, get out of the group stage and you leave a lot of quality teams behind.

If Leinster hadn't won a title last season and then signed two of the best players in teh Southern Hemisphere, fans expectation levels would not have been so high. Games like the Wasps match further served too increase expectations.

d-gal

Maybe it's because leinster have been known as bottlers in the HC. Play great rugby, have great hope and then lose a match they should win eg Castres.
Leinster will only get respect when they win the HC, simple as.
Sure the media will be harsh on them but the media are expecting a munster, a team that doesn't bottle it in the HC and if they lose they put in a great performance full of pride eg Biarritz.
Hey at least ye get publicity, poor ulster and connacht are left on the shelves!

old boy

every back is an international, granted, but of what quatity,

anonymous_joe

d-gal wrote: »

Maybe it's because leinster have been known as bottlers in the HC. Play great rugby, have great hope and then lose a match they should win eg Castres.
Leinster will only get respect when they win the HC, simple as.
Sure the media will be harsh on them but the media are expecting a munster, a team that doesn't bottle it in the HC and if they lose they put in a great performance full of pride eg Biarritz.
Hey at least ye get publicity, poor ulster and connacht are left on the shelves!

I think Ulster are starting to show signs that they could prove a very good team in a year or two.

The media are pandering to a Munster team whose dedicated following is butressed by a large number of less involved fans who are new converts to supporting rugby. The press writes to those fans when they talk about passion.

On the pitch, neither team is more passionate than the other, they're all dedicated professionals after all.

anonymous_joe

old boy wrote: »

every back is an international, granted, but of what quatity,

D'arcy and O'Driscoll would be amongst the best centres professional rugby has seen. Kearney was hailed by the SH press this summer as a world class full back who'll go on to be one of the best in the world, Luke Fitzgerald's one of the most exciting backs we've produced in years and Shane Horgan's not as good as he was but he was a supremely athletic winger who tore through countless defences for Ireland and Leinster.

As for Contepomi, one of the best 10s or 12s Argentina have had, and Whitaker was kept out of the Aussie side by Gregan.

Rather good backs actually.

Tim Robbins

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

I think a lot of the writers are justified in what they're printing. On paper Leinster could beat absolutely anyone - and with the players that were brought in, you'd expect them to be able grind out victories when they're not playing well.

Where are you getting that from?
There's very few Leinster players who "on paper" would walk into team in the H Cup. Very few. There's always a bit of juggling to get a decent 15 out. A simple example is we have 3 decent full backs and play one on the wing and one at center.

By making the big name signings they've brought pressure on themselves to compete at a higher level which the big players seem to have issue when it comes to stepping up.

At least 15 teams in Europe have big money signings.

Tim Robbins

d-gal wrote: »

Maybe it's because leinster have been known as bottlers in the HC. Play great rugby, have great hope and then lose a match they should win eg Castres.

I disagree with that. You get beaten because they other team were usually better than you. "Bottling it" is usually just rhetoric.

anonymous_joe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I disagree with that. You get beaten because they other team were usually better than you. "Bottling it" is usually just rhetoric.

I wouldn't say Castres were better than Leinster at all. Just that they took their opportunities which were gifted to them by Leinster.

There is a lot of rhetoric involved in Irish rugby though...

Tim Robbins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

D'arcy and O'Driscoll would be amongst the best centres professional rugby has seen. Kearney was hailed by the SH press this summer as a world class full back who'll go on to be one of the best in the world, Luke Fitzgerald's one of the most exciting backs we've produced in years and Shane Horgan's not as good as he was but he was a supremely athletic winger who tore through countless defences for Ireland and Leinster.

As for Contepomi, one of the best 10s or 12s Argentina have had, and Whitaker was kept out of the Aussie side by Gregan.

Rather good backs actually.

W.R.T. the Castres game:
9. Whitaker is no-way near the scrum half Gregan was or he was. He takes several steps before passing.
10. Sexton - is a development player. We could have played Isa or Felipe if fit or Holwell if we didn't care about giving Sexton his chance.
11. Kearny - not a winger. Much better FB where you can run hard lines and approach tackles head on.
12. Fitz - Arguably not a center. A better winger or FB.
13. BOD - No way was he fit.
14. Keogh - A squad player.
15. Dempsey - Hardly world class. He only got so many caps for Ireland because we had no other full backs.

Basically, we had no right to expect to just beat Castres. Either did the media. But the media, blow them up and then hit them down.

Munster are heros for beating 14 men. It's not often you see 15 players loose to 14 men in Rugby and for the second time Munster this season got out at home to a French team.

Tim Robbins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I wouldn't say Castres were better than Leinster at all. Just that they took their opportunities which were gifted to them by Leinster.

There is a lot of rhetoric involved in Irish rugby though...

Indeed. You always have a chance if you have a good kicker, to slot home your penalities. That was the difference between the sides. Big deal. We gave an young Irish player a chance on a big stage.

I think there's just a huge amount of hype with all the provinces. I'd prefer them all to do worse if it meant Ireland and Irish Rugby did better.

In fact, there's hype all over Europe, we rely on huge number of imports from the SH to have decent teams.

While the SH develop their players, we pay their professionals.

A wee bit of a joke me thinks.

anonymous_joe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

W.R.T. the Castres game:
9. Whitaker is no-one near the scrum half Gregan was or he was. He takes several steps before passing.
10. Sexton - is a development player. We could have played Isa or Felipe if fit or Holwell if we didn't care about giving Sexton his chance.
11. Kearny - not a winger. Much better FB where you can run hard lines and approach tackles head on.
12. Fitz - Arguably not a center. A better winger or FB.
13. BOD - No way was he fit.
14. Keogh - A squad player.
15. Dempsey - Hardly world class. He only got so many caps for Ireland because we had no other full backs.

Basically, we had no right to expect to just beat Castres. Either did the media. But the media, blow them up and then hit them down.

Munster are heros for beating 14 men. It's not often you see 15 players loose to 14 men in Rugby and for the second time Munster this season got out at home to a French team.

Regarding Leinster - that Leinster team is still better than Castres who are second from bottom in the Top 14.

And while I agree with most of what you say about hte backs there ( I don't think Dempsey's world class, I do think he's very good, he kept Geordan Murphy out of the team for donkey's years after all) that's still a better back line than Castres could muster.

Leinster could and should have thrashed them. No they're nowhere near full strength, but they've got a decent squad. Take Keogh, he did well enough at Quins, and he looks a decent winger with a nice turn of speed and good feet. No he's not going to make the Ireland team, but he's good enough to play a team like Castres.

As for the Munster game, they almost lost to that Clermont team which would have been a farce, but Niall Ronan's try at the end adds the gloss and makes the result appear a lot prettier than it was.

TarfHead

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Regarding Leinster - that Leinster team is still better than Castres who are second from bottom in the Top 14.

Do good teams get beaten up by teams they're 'still better than' ?

anonymous_joe wrote: »

And while I agree with most of what you say about hte backs there ( I don't think Dempsey's world class, I do think he's very good, he kept Geordan Murphy out of the team for donkey's years after all) that's still a better back line than Castres could muster.

The Leinster back line may have had better potential than their counterparts in Castres, but they didn't execute, so potential is academic.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Leinster could and should have thrashed them .. Munster .. almost lost to that Clermont team which would have been a farce

Leinster lost a game they should won. Munster won a game they should have lost.

Munster earned their praise; Leinster earned their criticism.

Erin Go Brath

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone else think the media are being over harsh on Leinster?

If we were told at the beginning of the season we'd have 15 points after four games, we'd probably have taken that. If were told we'd have more points than the other provences at this stage, we'd have taken that too.

We were missing, Cullen, Van Der Linde, D'Arcy, Horgan. Contemponi and BOD were obviously not fully fit. Dito Isa. If Sexton slotted a few more kicks we would have won the game. We could have won, if Holwell was picked but Sexton got was given his chance which is god for his development.

And afterall, no team rarely wins all six pool matches.

Fair points. I think people were just disappointed they couldn't put away a mediocre Castres team. Still 15 points with a big points difference and big try count is good going at this stage. Even if they fail to win the group, they're almost certain to get a qualifying spot. I still think Leinster have it in them to beat Wasps away. Wasps looked a poor side against Edinburgh and i believe Leinster won't be as careless and stupid next time out, and can beat this Wasps team, they certainly have it in them. A home QF is definitely on the cards if they can beat Wasps!

louthandproud

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's an interesting point...


Now look at that team - every single back's an international. And some good players on the bench too. Most of the pack is of international standard. Jennings at Leicester was almighty, with him and Elsom in the backrow, as well as the massive talent of Heaslip, it looks on paper to be the best backrow in Europe. The front five is as strong a Leinster one as there's been in years. As for that backline, come on, there's no-one who could touch it other than maybe Toulouse.

Don't think anyone would argue with the quality of Leinster's players, on paper they should have maximum points given the poor standard of the rest of their group.

Although Neil Francis was probably a bit OTT in his criticism in the tribune yesterday and last week (don't know what the rest of the pundits have been saying) it seems to me his criticism is born out of frustration that the above set (weather all fit or not ) should be doing better given their on-paper pedigree. They do seem to have touch of Ireland'itus (whatever that is) right now. However if they can go and win at Wasp's they still have abig chance to redeem themselves.

And really I don't think harsh criticism can do too much harm at this point, perhaps if they read some of it they might wake up and smell the coffee and start playing for the team, same goes for Ireland. Jury is still out on Munster at the moment they seem to do just enough but still aren't playing anything close 80 minutes of their potential game, or even half of it, they will also need to be careful or their European title might be gone sooner than expected.

sslazio11

louthandproud wrote: »

Jury is still out on Munster at the moment they seem to do just enough but still aren't playing anything close 80 minutes of their potential game, or even half of it, they will also need to be careful or their European title might be gone sooner than expected.

I agree with you that Munster are scraping by at the moment, but isn't that what happened last season? They did just enough to get through the group stage, and then peaked for the knock-out stages. I'm not saying that it'll happen exactly like that this season, but I'd have more faith in them than Leinster to up their game when it really matters.

That said, if Leinster can beat Wasps and get themselves a home QF, followed by a home SF, they could easily find themselves in the final.

remus808

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Munster are heros for beating 14 men. It's not often you see 15 players loose to 14 men in Rugby and for the second time Munster this season got out at home to a French team.

Exactly. Media coverage is extremely annoying... FFS Munster were obliterated up front at home for 40 minutes+ by 7 forwards.

louthandproud

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Munster are heros for beating 14 men. It's not often you see 15 players loose to 14 men in Rugby and for the second time Munster this season got out at home to a French team.

I don't think anyone in the media is making heroes out of Munster for simply beating a 14 man team, that just wouldn't make sense.

The praise I have read in the media for Munsters win was based on the fact that they didn't panic, stuck to their guns and pulled it off, victory from the jaws of defeat and all that, not the other way around which is what Leinster are being criticised for.

Munsters overall performance was not good save a few brief spells in the first half, I think that is well recognised in the media reports I have been reading, and amongst Munster supporters I have been talking to.

And myself!

Chucky the tree

ch2008 wrote: »

Thats fair criticism. It's reasoned and backed up with fact. Its just a lot of articles aren't.when Munster beat leinster there was three pages in the times.when leinster beat Munster there was half a page.there are more Munster fans in the country so they'll sell more papers with articles praising Munster and leinster articles entitled ''leinster ladyboys''. People will pick up what they want to read,not the truth.
The two lowest circulation days in the last ten years for the sun in england were both days when england were knocked out of major tournaments.people will read what they want to read and the papers write to meet that expectation

Sorry, when did Leinster beat Munster in the HEC? Also, I'd there's alot more copies of the times sold in Leinster/Dublin then in Munster. Unless your claiming it's only Munster fans in Leinster who buy it...

karmabass wrote: »

Exactly. Media coverage is extremely annoying... FFS Munster were obliterated up front at home for 40 minutes+ by 7 forwards.

Munster won, Leinster didnt, and throw away a golden oppurtunity to secure a home QF, and at the very least gurantee qualification.

For all the Leinster fans who are here complaining, were you all pleased with the performance on Friday?

murphym7

zenmonk wrote: »

More points than the other provinces?
Don't make me laugh. Look at the groups. Clermont and Sale in Munster's Stade and Quins and Scarlets in Ulsters!
Leinster have Wasps - that's it Wasps.
Leinster have by far the easiest draw of all the Irish teams.
Would anyone put money on Leinster getting out of the groups that the other Irish teams find themselves in?

Here here. Munster won and Leinster lost. Leinster got a bit of a slapping in the papers, big deal. It happens. Munster gets slapped in the press too some times.

I don;t believe for a second that the papers are biased towards Munster and picking on Leinster. Its a bit of a conspiracy theory.

All Leinster need to do is just go out and play well again, they will do well in HC this year and the best of luck to them. Just roll with the punches and stop sulking when the press give you a bit of a slapping.

CJhaughey

Leinster would do well to take a leaf from the Munster book and use criticism as a motivational tool, instead of complaining about it.