Junior Diplomat/Third Secretary

The_Conductor

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

They should administer the test in a room in the RDS. It isn't fair that some people had friends around them at the time. Personally I would find this a disadvantage. Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Repeating the exams for those who cut the mark and immediately disqualifying anyone whose results are more than a certain percent below the original scores- will be a good check for those who cheat. There is no point in cheating- if you're not up to doing the exams- you're certainly not up to doing the job.

5p9arw38djv2b4

Montjuic wrote: »

It is also quite unfair that they give you less than a weeks notice to inform you that you have passed to the next round and that you have to get yourself to Dublin. If you have to take time off work at such notice it is pretty hard. In my case it is made harder since I live abroad.

Me too, if I get through I will have to think hard about the cost of a last minute flight if there is only a weeks notice. If you knew there was inky a few hundred at the next round it might be worth it but if it is like the exams last time a croke park it wouldn't be.

5p9arw38djv2b4

ezra_pound wrote: »

There are currently 1700 applicants for this competition. There are a similar number of applicants for ao at the moment. It is expected that before Xmas there will be an eo competition. This will have many times more applicants - prob over 10k if not close to 15k. How many people do you think work in pas?

There are also strict requirements of recruiting going back to the free state which would make your suggestions funeasible. These requirements have given us a transparent and incorruptible cs.

Where are the rumours that there will be EO competition soon? Are they reliable (if rumours are ever reliable!) ... And how is this on the back of the recruitment moratorium? Been abroad for several years so not really clear on what is likely to happen any more - had been writing off civil service jobs in Ireland despite that being what I do now as I assumed I would never see any more recruitment in my lifetime!

ezra_pound

LadyLabyrinth wrote: »

Where are the rumours that there will be EO competition soon? Are they reliable (if rumours are ever reliable!) ... And how is this on the back of the recruitment moratorium? Been abroad for several years so not really clear on what is likely to happen any more - had been writing off civil service jobs in Ireland despite that being what I do now as I assumed I would never see any more recruitment in my lifetime!

It's no secret that there is an upcoming eo competition.

The Irish times July article which mentioned the 40 junior dip positions also announced 100 eo positions the current ao competitions and heo ap and po open positions for 2014.

Being a civil servant there are rumours that applications for eo will be this year if not this month.


EDIT :
If you Google the pseu review Sept Oct 2013 (pdf download) it refers to the possibility of a Nov date.

5p9arw38djv2b4

ezra_pound wrote: »

It's no secret that there is an upcoming eo competition.

The Irish times July article which mentioned the 40 junior dip positions also announced 100 eo positions the current ao competitions and heo ap and po open positions for 2014.

Being a civil servant there are rumours that applications for eo will be this year if not this month.


EDIT :
If you Google the pseu review Sept Oct 2013 (pdf download) it refers to the possibility of a Nov date.

Oh awesome! Thank you ... One more question if that's ok - do they not have to give sitting civil servants the option to move up grades before they do recruitment? I thought that with the freeze existing staff had to stay on same grade - does that mean people being recruited in would be going above those waiting several years for the chance to move up?

cee_jay

LadyLabyrinth wrote: »

Oh awesome! Thank you ... One more question if that's ok - do they not have to give sitting civil servants the option to move up grades before they do recruitment? I thought that with the freeze existing staff had to stay on same grade - does that mean people being recruited in would be going above those waiting several years for the chance to move up?

There are some confined and some open competitions. Some confined competitions can be confined to the department, but may also be interdepartmental.
http://hr.per.gov.ie/promotion-in-the-civil-service/

ezra_pound

LadyLabyrinth wrote: »

Oh awesome! Thank you ... One more question if that's ok - do they not have to give sitting civil servants the option to move up grades before they do recruitment? I thought that with the freeze existing staff had to stay on same grade - does that mean people being recruited in would be going above those waiting several years for the chance to move up?

Well... you're looking at it too simply.

Basically there are three ways of promotion:

1 open competition - what you will be going for openly competing with general public including serving civil servants

2 internal promotion - dept/agency runs internal promotion competition mainly by interview but may also include other element

3 inter departmental - all serving eligible civil servants can apply


****

There has been a slow trickle of eo promotions- mainly internal in the likes of revenue and social welfare.

Most other depts. Have had 0 or near to 0 such promotions.

Traditionally vacancies at eo level are filled something like 50:25:25 open:inter:internal.

The unions are currently trying to press for a similar ratio to be utilized.

BUT

Presumably the vacancies are going to be in depts which have been making some internal promotions eg social welfare.

So the allocation for internal positions will be already partially used up. Of course if a post is to be filled elsewhere this will not be the case.

My hunch is that perhaps the eo vacancies in 2014 will in practice be filled something like 60:30:10. Of course this is based on many assumptions and hypothetical situations as well as union negotiations etc.

It is reasonable enough though to assume that most appointments will be in depts which have already been making some internal promotions at eo level and therefore the main spread will be between open comp. And interdepartmental.

5p9arw38djv2b4

You are all hugely helpful! Can I ask one more?! Average time served before promotion in grades? Obviously the old system has gone but is there still a time to serve? I'm currently equivalent of HEO but given that I expect so few vacancies to come up back in Ireland I would go back in at EO if I (was lucky enough and) got something and thought there would be promotion prospects in the 3-5 yer time frame

cee_jay

For confined competitions, it's usually 2 years in your current grade before you are eligible to apply. You can apply for open competitions at any stage.

ezra_pound

LadyLabyrinth wrote: »

You are all hugely helpful! Can I ask one more?! Average time served before promotion in grades? Obviously the old system has gone but is there still a time to serve? I'm currently equivalent of HEO but given that I expect so few vacancies to come up back in Ireland I would go back in at EO if I (was lucky enough and) got something and thought there would be promotion prospects in the 3-5 yer time frame

As discussed earlier in this thread, two years in grade before internal or interdepartmental eligibility. Promotion prospects next 5 years nothing to get too excitedabout. If you take an eo job don't expect to get promoted too soon.

ezra_pound

LadyLabyrinth wrote: »

You are all hugely helpful! Can I ask one more?! Average time served before promotion in grades? Obviously the old system has gone but is there still a time to serve? I'm currently equivalent of HEO but given that I expect so few vacancies to come up back in Ireland I would go back in at EO if I (was lucky enough and) got something and thought there would be promotion prospects in the 3-5 yer time frame

Average time is meaningless.


What average to use? Celtic tiger period? Since then? 80s?

5p9arw38djv2b4

ezra_pound wrote: »

Average time is meaningless.


What average to use? Celtic tiger period? Since then? 80s?

I meant as in is their a new norm now - like the 2 years before you can apply for internals that someone has stated. I last worked in Irish civil service back in 2006 so it was quite different I expect! Thanks for all the help.

ccee

TheCruiser wrote: »

Another way of culling would be to only accept people with a Master's degree. You could argue that privileges those who have the financial means to continue into further education but on the other hand, masters are so widespread now that I don't think it would exclude too many and it would give prominence to those with an interest in relevant subjects.

I would also dispute the "raw intelligence" thing. Abstract reasoning tests aren't magical indicators of intelligence. Candidates' performance improves with practice, with learning several key principles and basically diligent preparation. You can argue this both ways though - perhaps those who practice more, have better attention to detail and prepare well deserve to progress. Perhaps it is diligent preparation that DFA are seeking out and rewarding here, rather than some arbitrary measure of aptitude.

As someone who has a Masters in IR and a language & already works in the Diplomatic Corps of a Government I can say that education is not a huge part of the job. Granted people have to be smart and have a bit of cop on but for the most part, just because you sat through college for five plus years does not give you common sense. In my current job, they hire people based on the individual, not on academics which I believe is right. You could be the smartest person in the world and still have no people skills which I believe are essential for being a Diplomat. I'm sure there are individuals out there who have no degrees, diplomas etc.. who would make fantastic diplomats. I think it unfair to say cull everyone below a Masters. Academics are not everything.....

ezra_pound

TheCruiser wrote: »

Another way of culling would be to only accept people with a Master's degree. You could argue that privileges those who have the financial means to continue into further education but on the other hand, masters are so widespread now that I don't think it would exclude too many and it would give prominence to those with an interest in relevant subjects.

I would also dispute the "raw intelligence" thing. Abstract reasoning tests aren't magical indicators of intelligence. Candidates' performance improves with practice, with learning several key principles and basically diligent preparation. You can argue this both ways though - perhaps those who practice more, have better attention to detail and prepare well deserve to progress. Perhaps it is diligent preparation that DFA are seeking out and rewarding here, rather than some arbitrary measure of aptitude.

it is in the interest of dfa to get the best candidates for the job. Why would they make an unnecessary requirement which would reduce the pool from which they are hiring? I have a masters degree so your suggestion would suit me but not the employer.

ezra_pound

LadyLabyrinth wrote: »

I meant as in is their a new norm now - like the 2 years before you can apply for internals that someone has stated. I last worked in Irish civil service back in 2006 so it was quite different I expect! Thanks for all the help.

Basically the change is that back then there seemed to be constantly some form of promotion going on. Also people were always changing office dept. Etc.Now there is really next to nothing so these competitions are massive opportunities. Just changing office is now a real rarity as no managers can afford to lose the trained staff that they have.

you should definitely go for the heo ap and po exams if you're currently in a management position.

At least you were in service before so you have some service built up which will make the pension more likely to be worthwhile. Unfortunately you'll now reenter on the newer scheme which is a lot less attractive than the post 95 and post 04 schemes.

TheCruiser

ezra_pound wrote: »

it is in the interest of dfa to get the best candidates for the job. Why would they make an unnecessary requirement which would reduce the pool from which they are hiring? I have a masters degree so your suggestion would suit me but not the employer.

Why would they reduce the pool? Because the pool is 1700 applicants for 40 positions. The entire point of the aptitude exam is to reduce the pool to a manageable size.

It's up for debate as to what is the best way to reduce the pool. Many posters don't agree with the aptitude exams and suggested that attention should be paid to relevant experience and/or training. A masters requirement, or indeed work experience are alternative means of cutting the numbers.

delricyo

I genuinely dont know anybody who cheated in these or the other AO online tests. And getting help while doing it is cheating. It is a shame that these people will only be caught out at stage 2, therefore denying somebody else a position at stage 2.

I think it could be deemed an unfair method of weeding out people. For internal promos, the unions have been campaigning for years to get a different method. But its simply a case of numbers. They dont have the resources to be doing other selection methods. I heard that a recent AP promo for serving Revenue staff used a presentation as stage 1. You had to prepare a detailed presentation and you were asked probing questions. Stage 2 was an interview. Friends of mine who did it, found it tough but fair. At least they felt that they made a decent effort - even when they didnt get on the panel. But remember there would have been just a couple of hundred applications for these positions ...

A poster above suggested a masters ? Perhaps that would work. However, there is no guarantee this will equip you for DFA work. Perhaps they are using the minimum entry requirements of a degree - and then their own criteria after that. Languages ? Doubt they are of that much benefit. Remember, you could be fluent in French and then assigned to Germany And they give you language training when you start.

It will be interesting to see what happens. I agree that a massive cull will happen at stage one. They require a number of staff even to conduct stage 2. Reduced numbers at stage 2 = lower costs

ezra_pound

TheCruiser wrote: »

Why would they reduce the pool? Because the pool is 1700 applicants for 40 positions. The entire point of the aptitude exam is to reduce the pool to a manageable size.

It's up for debate as to what is the best way to reduce the pool. Many posters don't agree with the aptitude exams and suggested that attention should be paid to relevant experience and/or training. A masters requirement, or indeed work experience are alternative means of cutting the numbers.

You fail to understand that the stage one tests are not merely an arbitrary tool for making the pool manageable. Rather they also provide a form of competition. This ensures that only the fastest and smartest are let through to the later stages. It is crude, and blunt but the mandate is to transparently select the most suitable candidates.

Having a requirement of a masters would reduce the competitive element with an unnecessary requirement. It would not be in the interest of dfa to do this.

Edit: I don't mean smartest in an absolute way- rather specifically raw IQ and ability to process written material quickly etc.

Further edit: moreover I suspect that many applicants, myself included and you too presumably, have masters. For this reason there would still have to be a stage one cull.

TheCruiser

ezra_pound wrote: »

You fail to understand that the stage one tests are not merely an arbitrary tool for making the pool manageable. Rather they also provide a form of competition. This ensures that only the fastest and smartest are let through to the later stages. It is crude, and blunt but the mandate is to transparently select the most suitable candidates.

Having a requirement of a masters would reduce the competitive element with an unnecessary requirement. It would not be in the interest of dfa to do this.

Edit: I don't mean smartest in an absolute way- rather specifically raw IQ and ability to process written material quickly etc.

Further edit: moreover I suspect that many applicants, myself included and you too presumably, have masters. For this reason there would still have to be a stage one cull.

It's more a difference of opinion, Ezra, to be fair. A lot of ppl on here don't agree with your assessment of the round 1 stage. Additional work and education requirements wouldn't reduce the competitive element - it's just a different form of competition. It's debatable.

Gareth178

bth, the current system is the most unbiased way of distilling the number of applicants. and i think the abstract reasoning is arguably fairer than the numerical reasoning that has previously been used.

Just because it's a brutally efficient and rapid way of cutting down the level of applicants initially doesn't make it unfair.

looking forward to "sometime next week" when we see if any of us get it or not. it'd be nice to at least get to the next stage where you'd get a real chance to prove yourself

Gareth178

incidentally, here's an amusing (yet informative) blog from a spouse of a US diplomat. while it's not entirely relevant, it's an eye opener

http://diplomaticmom.blogspot.ae/

ezra_pound

TheCruiser wrote: »

It's more a difference of opinion, Ezra, to be fair. A lot of ppl on here don't agree with your assessment of the round 1 stage. Additional work and education requirements wouldn't reduce the competitive element - it's just a different form of competition. It's debatable.

Sorry but the more you restrict entry requirements, the fewer applicants there are and the less competition there is.

That's just the nature of competition.

Also it wouldn't be very fair on Joe Bloggs BA who has worked as a PA , event manager and studied politics but never got a Masters. It is an arbitrary and unfair restriction on him.

JUDE2013

This is a fun argument to watch, but I'm going to throw my hat in with Ezra.

Coming from a law and politics background I first thought it was strange that third year undergrads were offered traineeships where others who had completed a masters and FE1s wouldn't get a look in, but the whole point of it is that the highest qualifications don't necessarily mean the best candidate. Employers look for different things.

People have mentioned teachers and vets getting these jobs, which suggests that the CS looks at the person rather than the qualification, hence the need not to be too rigid with application requirements. I like it. The interview will tell all at any rate.

LG1234

Did anyone do any online practice exams before doing the online tests? If so, could they give me the address? Its for a different comp on which I need to practice.

lucat

LG1234 wrote: »

Did anyone do any online practice exams before doing the online tests? If so, could they give me the address? Its for a different comp on which I need to practice.

There are practice tests on the publicjobs website, but not for abstract reasoning, as far as I could see. I bought the EU Administrator (AD) exam book in Waterstones a while ago and I found that really useful to practice with. The standard in that book is way above that in the civil service tests so it's great training. It's by András Baneth if you want to get it yourself & IMO it's worth it if you think you'll be doing a few of them.

salmon1

Hopefully we hear something in the next few days

saltyjack silverblade

salmon1 wrote: »

Hopefully we hear something in the next few days

Should probably tweet them and ask for an answer. They usually tweet the answers fairly promptly. The longer this is going on for me the less hope I am holding out!

Gareth178

i rang them this morning and they said it'd probably be late in the week before the results are out.

ccee

I emailed them this morning because the waiting is torture, and this is what the emailed back...

Dear C

We hope to issue the results of the on line tests later this week and the next stage of the process will take place week beginning 25th November.

Hope this helps everyone!! Hopefully we will all get good news later in the week!

The_Conductor

Week of 25th? Dammit. I've 3 other things on that week. I'm getting really good at double booking myself for multiple things.......