Junior Diplomat/Third Secretary

ManwitaPlan

Just wondering if anybody could give me a bit of info on this career path?

I have come across a bit about it on publicjobs.ie but I am just wondering what sort of people are usually chosen for the job and how tough is it to actually get a place?

I recently graduated with a good degree and Im currently working towards becoming a qualified accountant. I am very interested in politics and international relations and a career in diplomacy would interest me very much. Im just wondering in three years time after qualifying as an accountant would this job be a step back (dont mean that in a derogatory way I just mean would I be competing with recent grads i.e. is this something I should be thinking about now) or is it more suited to people with much more experience?


I suppose Im just looking for profiles on the sort of people who apply and get accepted for these jobs e.g. is it something people think about straight out of college, a few years down the line or after years of building a successful career?

Thanks.

Nolanger

It's done through the standard AO competition each year in the RDS.
Reckon it's very difficult to get.
Workwise it's not a step back to accounting and probably very interesting work but salary wise it would be.

1082229

For the trials and tribulations of the competition


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055336552

ripo

Dear ManwitaPlan,

It would be ideal for you to study International Relations, and get a 1st or 2nd in your results, a masters along with some languages will give you a better chance, it's very hard although if you work hard enough i'm sure you have a good chance in obtaining that dream job. Good luck

I am studying International Relations in order to apply for this job. I suggest you do the same.

The Public Appointments Service is committed to recruitment for these roles.
Contact: Helpdesk 353 (0) 858 7523 – Graduate Recruitment Unit: 353 (0)1 858 7480
Chapter House, 26 – 30 Abbey Street Upper, Dublin 1



Regards
Adam Ripon

JD1763

I'm on the current third sec panel, placed top 10. I come from a business background (finance specifically), have pretty basic German (leaving cert level) and most of the Irish I did have I've now forgotten. Basically no other language besides English to be honest.

From the interview process they seemed to just look for common sense, an ability to understand situations and come up with solutions to problems. Beyond that it was a knowledge of the department itself, current affairs (domestic and international), seeking out your opinion or viewpoint on things - for example Northern Ireland, the UN and Irish foreign aid. If you could argue your viewpoint logically and coherently in response to their questions they seemed happy with that.

Maybe other peoples experiences of the whole thing were different to mine but thats how it was for me. Didn't expect to get as far as I did in the competition but I feel it shows that there is no one thing they are looking for and that it is the individuals themselves that they evaluate. You don't necessarily need to have spent time working internships for international organisations, thinktanks or have a masters in political science etc.

You could try reading 'An Accidental Diplomat' for some indication of the job and the Dept but its a bit dated now.

As an aside, I'm going the opposite way starting my ACA training contract this Sep since there is unlikely to be any further recruitment for a long time .

1082229

Yeah, I'm also on the panel got a 2.1, they didn't ask for any languages. The course doesn't really matter either, a number of people I spoke to during interviews had science backgrounds.

They are happy with smart people with a variety of skills. Who can learn more on the job.

Our panel is finished up probably the end of the year (It got extended) but I doubt anyone beyond the 4 at the top got jobs. Damn embargo....

It was June or so last year they were recruiting for the position. But with the current economic situation go off do a masters and wait and see I suppose.

Oafley Jones

ripo wrote: »

Dear ManwitaPlan,

It would be ideal for you to study International Relations, and get a 1st or 2nd in your results, a masters along with some languages will give you a better chance, it's very hard although if you work hard enough i'm sure you have a good chance in obtaining that dream job. Good luck

I am studying International Relations in order to apply for this job. I suggest you do the same.

The Public Appointments Service is committed to recruitment for these roles.
Contact: Helpdesk 353 (0) 858 7523 – Graduate Recruitment Unit: 353 (0)1 858 7480
Chapter House, 26 – 30 Abbey Street Upper, Dublin 1



Regards
Adam Ripon

Went for the Third Secretary position myself about two years and got some advice from a Second Secretary, some of it was quite surprising. I was told that my Masters in European Development Studies would be of little advantage. The degree you have, whether it be political sciences or engineering makes little difference as long as the results are good. He shares an office with someone who qualified as a vet, while he was in recruitment for a number of years, others he worked with were similarly diverse.

Being fluent in a foreign language isn't that much of a bonus either. Most Irish people will have French or German and given that you can be sent anywhere you'll probably have to learn off a new language anyway.

As a poster above said, they're looking for common sense and people who've had a bit of 'life experience'. Most who join will be at least in their early 30's and have worked for a few years.

FerrisBueller

Hey,
Just noticed this thread now, I've been researching this position for the last couple of months and I'm very interested in it. I'm about to go into my final year of university and I should hopefully be qualified as a secondary school languages teacher.

How often does the competition take place for jobs? I'm wondering if it's worth my while to do a Masters and wait a bit longer or to go for it straight away, since this is the kind of position where they encourage staff to keep learning (and therefore whatever I learn would be relevant to the job).

Also, after being offered the job, how long must one wait before taking up the placement?

Any feedback appreciated, would love to hear some stories!

Slasher

Sorry to disappoint you, Ferris, but these cushy number jobs in DoFA are only offered to certain people, if you know what I mean. Not available to the general public.

Lu Tze

Slasher wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint you, Ferris, but these cushy number jobs in DoFA are only offered to certain people, if you know what I mean. Not available to the general public.

Not in this instance, you have to qualify through apititude tests and successive interviews. These are open to everybody, and if you are applying from within the CS, you have to apply in the same way as everybody else.

Not exactly what i would call a cushy number either.

Nolanger

As long as you have a decent degree and can do well in their aptitude tests/presentation/interview which most people can't.

Kazuma

Slasher wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint you, Ferris, but these cushy number jobs in DoFA are only offered to certain people, if you know what I mean. Not available to the general public.

Where did you come up with that shyte? Jobs in the diplomatic corps are ANYTHING but cushy (unless you're on an ambassadorial level).

Wanted to do this when I first entered college, was told by many people that you just need good results (a first, maybe 2.1), and do well in the interviews.

JohnMearsheimer

FerrisBueller wrote: »

Hey,
Just noticed this thread now, I've been researching this position for the last couple of months and I'm very interested in it. I'm about to go into my final year of university and I should hopefully be qualified as a secondary school languages teacher.

How often does the competition take place for jobs? I'm wondering if it's worth my while to do a Masters and wait a bit longer or to go for it straight away, since this is the kind of position where they encourage staff to keep learning (and therefore whatever I learn would be relevant to the job).

Also, after being offered the job, how long must one wait before taking up the placement?

Any feedback appreciated, would love to hear some stories!

These types of positions are not likely to arise anytime soon with the public sector recruitment embargo. I think the last competition for 3rd Sec was in 2008.

You should read An Accidental Diplomat by Eamon Delaney, it's an account of his time as a 3rd Sec in DFA.

Lu Tze

Kazuma wrote: »

Where did you come up with that shyte? Jobs in the diplomatic corps are ANYTHING but cushy (unless you're on an ambassadorial level).

Wanted to do this when I first entered college, was told by many people that you just need good results (a first, maybe 2.1), and do well in the interviews.

I live with a third sec (known him for 7 years or so), you have to be a fairly driven individual to get through, i think there was 7000+ applicants when he went in, resulting in about 13-14 appointments.

And as much as i give out about inefficiency and laziness i have seen in the PS/CS (and i have worked in amongst them for a while) this guy isn't coming home till ten some nights. Not cushy at all!

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

These types of positions are not likely to arise anytime soon with the public sector recruitment embargo. I think the last competition for 3rd Sec was in 2008.

You should read An Accidental Diplomat by Eamon Delaney, it's an account of his time as a 3rd Sec in DFA.

I didn't actually finish that book, was interesting though, there was a lot going on while he was in there

JohnMearsheimer

Lu Tze wrote: »

I didn't actually finish that book, was interesting though, there was a lot going on while he was in there

Ya, it would have been a great time to be working in DFA. I found the book really informative and funny in places.....dancing for Ireland Still a stressful job though. I wouldn't mind having a pint with Eamon, seems like a really interesting character.

Slasher

Oooh, imagine someone working until ten!! That's a sure sign of a stressful job!

Anyhow, these appointments are political. Sure, they go through the sham of aptitude tests and interviews, but, in the end, only those who are politically connected are really eligible.

(no, I did not make this up because I applied and was rejected).

Euro_Kraut

Slasher wrote: »

Anyhow, these appointments are political. Sure, they go through the sham of aptitude tests and interviews, but, in the end, only those who are politically connecte are really eligible.

(no, I did not make this up because I applied and was rejected).

This is BS really. Probably belongs more to the Conspiracy theory forum. I got myself to the interview stage before for this job and ended up on the panel, but too far back to get called. I have no political contacts and I can't see how even I did I could have used them.

Lu Tze

Slasher wrote: »

Oooh, imagine someone working until ten!! That's a sure sign of a stressful job!

Anyhow, these appointments are political. Sure, they go through the sham of aptitude tests and interviews, but, in the end, only those who are politically connecte are really eligible.

(no, I did not make this up because I applied and was rejected).

If your going to spout bollocks then i suggest you go to the help desk and ask them to set up a forum for it.

As i said my friend got in, more than likely only a couple of places up the panel from Eurokraut, and does not have any political connections.

Even if somebody is politically connected, they still have to get through the aptitude tests, which from what i have heard from the 3 people (1 pass, 2 fail) i know who took them are of quite a high standard, though this might also be due to the shear number applying as i said (7000+) and they have to have a cut off somewhere.

FerrisBueller

Thanks a million everybody, I really appreciate the replies. Never realised how much the job was in demand, I genuinely thought the majority of Irish were home birds who never wanted to leave in such a manner, how wrong I was.

Also, to those who say you need political connections, whether you do or not doesn't phase me, I've done the impossible in the past! I read on here that the current panel is going to be kept until 2011, so possibly it'll be around the time I graduate or finish up university that they could start advertising again, I'll be keeping a look out!

One other thing has also got me very curious, what careers do people go into afterwards? I mean the people who decide to leave the diplomatic service.

cuzcco

I'm coming to this a bit late, but here goes.
There's nothing political about it at all - it's open to all, as it should be.

As for backgrounds of people they pick, it's really varied as you can see from the other posters. I got onto the (doomed?) October 2008 panel and I come from a very IR, political background, speak a few languages, and have worked abroad for a good few years. But this really doesn't seem to matter, in the interviews they never asked about my languages, and apart from one awful philosophical question about "Asian values" I never got any questions related to my time abroad. Basically they are looking for people that can show they have an open mind, an affable nature, an ability to stay calm under pressure and good judgement.

As for recruitment, that's really anyone's guess. I don't think the DFA themselves know when they'll start a new panel, what with this embargo. I'd be doubtful if they'll even start recruitment to a new panel at the start of 2011; setting up a panel costs a fortune, and a fortune we don't have. However there is light at the end of the tunnel, in 2013 Ireland has two presidencies, EU and OSCE, and DFA will need a ton of people for that, so they'll need to get them hired and trained a good bit before that.

FerrisBueller

Hi Cuzcco!

Thanks a million for the reply, are you still on the panel or has it changed?
Anyway, I really appreciate the message. What types of questions did they ask you?

Also, are the past tests available online? Or does anyone know if there are any similar examples available?

As I said earlier, I still have one year left at university, but I'd like to be prepared should a recruitment start in 2011 (although I think it's looking doubtful but the sounds of it).

It also has me wondering if I were to be in the middle of a Masters would I have to leave in the middle of it to take up the post? That's another thing which has been on my mind. That being said, I haven't got a clue how I'd even do in the recruitment yet.

ChristopherUno

Spending a bit of time at my local embassy as I've a few friends working there and none of them have very much time for the Accidental Diplomat, the deputy head of mission here said yer man was pretty much trying to act the playboy on the taxpayers' money and basically was half a step from being kicked out before he resigned. That said, I bloody loved it, right romp of a read, wouldn't mind throwing my hand at that type of work for a while meself!

LimeFruitGum

ChristopherUno wrote: »

Spending a bit of time at my local embassy as I've a few friends working there and none of them have very much time for the Accidental Diplomat, the deputy head of mission here said yer man was pretty much trying to act the playboy on the taxpayers' money and basically was half a step from being kicked out before he resigned. That said, I bloody loved it, right romp of a read, wouldn't mind throwing my hand at that type of work for a while meself!

Really? :eek: So he hopped before he was pushed then? :cool:
Interesting...

I did the exams myself a few years ago. They were alright, you do the same verbal & maths test as anyone else, plus the Case Study section which is actually quite interesting. There are no right or wrong answers as such, but some are more "right" than others, if you catch me drift. They want to see how you would proceed in a high-pressure situation, where no fancy degree will save you!

I passed but was nowhere near high enough to get processed any further. I might try it again in a few years time though, who knows.

My understanding from civil service friends is that they would expect you to be 100% dedicated in the DFA - be able to leave Ireland at the drop of a hat for a posting and do the late hours. As previously mentioned, they're more concerned about the candidate's personality and cop-on, as opposed to having lots of qualifications.

SciencesPo

Hi guys,

First time here so apologies if this isn't the right place to be posting this, however I'm currently doing a Masters degree at Sciences Po Paris and as such, working in the Irish diplomatic corps is my major career goal. Is there any word on whether recruitment for Third Secretaries might be restarted in the near future? I'm supposing Labour would be more in favour of such a move than Fine Gael, but apart from Gilmore criticizing the CS recruitment ban as an overly "blunt instrument" during the debates I haven't heard too much more on it.

salmon1

Sorry to bring an old thread up just wondering if anyone applied for the third secretary position which closes tonight?would be interested to hear if anyone did

sureitsgrand

Shhhhhhhhhh!

Was planning on opening up a thread on this AFTER the deadline

salmon1

sureitsgrand wrote: »

Shhhhhhhhhh!

Was planning on opening up a thread on this AFTER the deadline

Haaa

I wonder what are the numbers like going for it and are they offering many places this time

The_Conductor

Put my name down about a forthnight ago. I actually spent a lot more time on my application than I did for AO. Looks like an interesting job, at a very interesting time for Ireland abroad.

ezra_pound

I got my application in yesterday.
Did the exams around 2006 and did awfully poorly in job simulation exam so didn't have a hope of getting called for interview. Think I was place 1,000 or something.

Here's to a much higher performance this time round!

El Sid

salmon1 wrote: »

Haaa

I wonder what are the numbers like going for it and are they offering many places this time

According to this article about 40 places. I imagine (unfortunately!) there will be a couple of thousand applicants.

The_Conductor

El Sid wrote: »

According to this article about 40 places. I imagine (unfortunately!) there will be a couple of thousand applicants.

So- 100 EOs, 40 Third Secretaries, and an indeterminate number of specialist AO posts. In total- almost certainly less than 200 positions- and most candidates going for all 3 competitions.

I don't see how this is going to make one iota of difference to the stated government policy of making a noticeable reduction in the average age of the civil service- 200 recruits in a pool of 30,000 simply isn't enough. If there was some sort of an incentivised retirement scheme- and greater recruitment perhaps- however, simply bringing in less than 1% of the current staff numbers- simply is a drop in the ocean.

Its welcome that there are new people coming in- but the numbers- in the context of the civil service and public sector- are insufficient.