Comments in the Dail on Airsoft

Grizzly 45

Hi all,
Sorry to be the bringer of bad news,but it looks like our local gun grabber...er minister for injustice,Dermot Aherne,now has a problem with airsoft pistols as well.:(:(.
Over on the shooting site,Sparks put up an entire dialouge of todays Dail proceeding where Aherne blathers on about gun culture,liscensed pistols illegal pistols and airsoft pistols.It's on the thread Minister strikes back,last page.He wants your stuff gone as well..:(:(:(

Stercus Accidit

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20081210.xml&Node=H13-1#H13-1


This information has been forwarded to the IAA by The Doc who saw it first, and by myself earlier.

Airsofters can rest assured that the IAA will likely handle this perfectly well, as they did with a minister Lenihan, who was quoted as saying "Airsoft is here to stay"


see www.irishairsoft.ie

Captain Chaos

Here is a link to the latest meeting on the 2/12/08.

http://irishairsoft.ie/

Doomofman

Hope the IAA can work their magic

Just out of interest where are the relevant comments? Am looking through at the moment and have yet to see Airsoft mentioned

Chuck the Buck

So is he (the minister) talking airsoft pistols or ALL airsoft in his ban?

One is not impressed...

-PornStar-

I did a search for Airsoft. Got 2 comments as a result.

"While a de facto ban on new handgun licences is already in place, my proposals will be given legislative form in the criminal justice (miscellaneous provisions) Bill which I will bring before the House early in the new year. That Bill will also tackle comprehensively the issue of airsoft guns. I wish to have an outright ban on these guns and to make possession of them in public a serious offence. The proliferation of airsoft guns has been brought to my attention by Members on all sides of the House. The Bill will also contain measures which the Garda Commissioner has suggested for tightening up the law to deal with knives. I have had many meetings with the Garda Commissioner and Garda senior management on the issue of illegal handguns. We have a duty to examine the existing licensing arrangements for handguns, which will allow a proliferation of handguns before we have even had an opportunity in the House to state what we believe should be public policy in this regard."

"Deputy Flanagan continually states that I am concentrating on licensed hand guns. As he will be aware, however, extremely tough provisions on the possession of illegal firearms, particularly handguns, have been in place since we made changes to the 2006 Act. Mandatory sentences of ten and five years are in force, depending on the type of offence. We must go further, particularly in view of comments made by Mr. Justice Peter Charlton in July and, more recently, Mr. Justice George Birmingham, who is not unknown to the Deputy. The latter, for example, referred to the reason certain people believe they need to have licensed handguns in their possession. The combination of illegal, licensed and so-called airsoft handguns will quickly give rise to a gun culture. We need to address this issue quickly. As policymakers, the Government, Members of the Oireachtas and I, as Minister, have a duty in this respect, which is the reason I asked for support on the issue. The Deputy should not speak out of both sides of his mouth on this matter."

Both comments made by Dermot Ahern.

Doomofman

Isn't possesion of them in a public place already a serious offense?

Chuck the Buck

Pornstar you beat me to it

Shiva

I wouldnt get too hung up on what Deputy Aherne said there, to be honest.

Oftentimes, in the heat of a debate, phrases like that are uttered, promises made, chests thumped and oaths sworn....that ultimately fall by the wayside.

These are politicians, remember. They're not talking to each other across the table in a pub, they're debating a motion and aren't really interested in hearing each others opinions. They're playing to the public and media, and Deputy Aherne is saying what he thinks people want to hear. The opposition are trying to score points by tripping him up on facts, figures and details - thats how it works.

Theres no doubt restrictions are coming. We all acknowledge it, and the sane amongst us welcome them, as long as they aren't draconian and pointless.

The IAA have stated all along they want restrictions placed on who can buy airsoft devices, and legislation passed to make brandishing an airsoft gun a serious offence. We retailers want this, and even the unaffiliated airsoft retailers will welcome some kind of control, if only to safeguard our businesses.

It remains to be seen what shape the forthcoming restrictions take, and thats the battle the IAA are fighting. I mentioned over on the IAA forum that I was impressed by what I saw at the recent meeting with Deputy Flanagan, so I'm confident the interests of ALL airsofters, IAA members and non-members, are being well represented, and that airsoft will have a future in Ireland.

Until we see actual legislation, its pointless whipping ourselves into a frenzy every time one of the politicians mentions banning airsoft in a Dail debate - its just words thrown out to sound good in the media.

Doomofman

Shiva wrote: »

I wouldnt get too hung up on what Deputy Aherne said there, to be honest.

Oftentimes, in the heat of a debate, phrases like that are uttered, promises made, chests thumped and oaths sworn....that ultimately fall by the wayside.

These are politicians, remember. They're not talking to each other across the table in a pub, they're debating a motion and aren't really interested in hearing each others opinions. They're playing to the public and media, and Deputy Aherne is saying what he thinks people want to hear. The opposition are trying to score points by tripping him up on facts, figures and details - thats how it works.

Theres no doubt restrictions are coming. We all acknowledge it, and the sane amongst us welcome them, as long as they aren't draconian and pointless.

The IAA have stated all along they want restrictions placed on who can buy airsoft devices, and legislation passed to make brandishing an airsoft gun a serious offence. We retailers want this, and even the unaffiliated airsoft retailers will welcome some kind of control, if only to safeguard our businesses.

It remains to be seem what shape the forthcoming restrictions take, and thats the battle the IAA are fighting. I mentioned over on the IAA forum that I was impressed by what I saw at the recent meeting with Deputy Flanagan, so I'm confident the interests of ALL airsofters, IAA members and non-members, are being well represented, and that airsoft will have a future in Ireland.

Until we see actual legislation, its pointless whipping ourselves into a frenzy every time one of the politicians mentions banning airsoft in a Dail debate - its just words thrown out to sound good in the media.

Well said Tony, I'm all for restrictions myself. Hopefully it will make the game more secure and more enjoyable for those of us who have a genuine interest in the sport and aren't just buying airsoft gear to mess about.

The IAA have been such good representatives for the sport already. I trust them to lead all of us in the right direction.

Airsoft has to have a future in this country.

EDIT: Also I think a mod should change the title of this thread. It's a bit over the top if you ask me

Shiva

Doomofman wrote: »

Isn't possesion of them in a public place already a serious offense?

Fayer or someone with a legal background would be able to explain in detail, but its my understanding that its not an actual offence unless someone "reasonably" fears for their safety, or fears that the airsoft device is real.

Something along those lines. Thats not to say you wont get into a serious amount of smelly stuff if you happen to fall foul of the person who reasonably fears for their safety - You will. But you wont be charged with "brandishing a replica firearm" - it'll be some other section of the law you'll be charged with.

Doomofman

Shiva wrote: »

Fayer or someone with a legal background would be able to explain in detail, but its my understanding that its not an actual offence unless someone "reasonably" fears for their safety, or fears that the airsoft device is real.

Something along those lines. Thats not to say you wont get into a serious amount of smelly stuff if you happen to fall fall of the person who reasonably fears for their safety - You will. But you wont be charged with "brandishing a repliace firearm" - it'll be some other section of the law you'll be charged with.

Well it's not like I plan doing it. But I think it should be more strict to put a stop to the idiots who do.

jayod30

Really at this stage if it is looking at a ban which i don't think it is, maybe the IAA should be lookin to the government to set up an organisation like UKARA so there is strict protocals before you can buy anything that resembles a real weapon. I know there only airsoft and considered as toys once under 1 joule but it seems anyone can sell them now so i think for the sport to survive we have to have some sort of government agency working along with the IAA.:(

-PornStar-

Yeah some good points there Tony.

I for one wouldn't mind there being some restrictions on the sport. As you said it will give retailers and players alike some security. I have spent way too much money over the last two months, it would really be a shame for all of that to go to waste.

So if it was a requirement to have a licence or IAA membership in order to possess airsoft guns I would welcome it. At least then everyone wouldn't need to stress out every time they are mentioned in the Dail or the local newspaper.

jayod30

-PornStar- wrote: »

Yeah some good points there Tony.

I for one wouldn't mind there being some restrictions on the sport. As you said it will give retailers and players alike some security. I have spent way too much money over the last two months, it would really be a shame for all of that to go to waste.

So if it was a requirement to have a licence or IAA membership in order to possess airsoft guns I would welcome it. At least then everyone wouldn't need to stress out every time they are mentioned in the Dail or the local newspaper.

As Pornstar has said ( love the name ) i to have invested to much in the sport to see it go down the drain by a few politicians lookin for the easy way out. I'll be making a point of going to the IAA AGM to make my and i hope a few others feelins heard. Its a major point that everybody serious about the sport has to get this sorted before the politicians try and do it to gain some much needed browny points

Tommyboy71

Shiva wrote: »

Fayer or someone with a legal background would be able to explain in detail, but its my understanding that its not an actual offence unless someone "reasonably" fears for their safety, or fears that the airsoft device is real.

Something along those lines. Thats not to say you wont get into a serious amount of smelly stuff if you happen to fall foul of the person who reasonably fears for their safety - You will. But you wont be charged with "brandishing a replica firearm" - it'll be some other section of the law you'll be charged with.

I think it down to the "perception of threat". If people believe it to be a real <insert weapon name>, then you can be charged accordingly.

Puding

if you brandish a airsoft device in public it is treated as a real firearm simple as i just wish they would follow thought on prosecuting people who are doing it, make an example.

Some people really need to read the iaa forums and expand there horizon beyond the walls of boards.ie, a lot of the 'recommendation people have been making of late have already been looked into and presented.

kdouglas

jayod30 wrote: »

Really at this stage if it is looking at a ban which i don't think it is, maybe the IAA should be lookin to the government to set up an organisation like UKARA so there is strict protocals before you can buy anything that resembles a real weapon. I know there only airsoft and considered as toys once under 1 joule but it seems anyone can sell them now so i think for the sport to survive we have to have some sort of government agency working along with the IAA.:(

The UKARA and the VCRA which necessitated it in the UK is an absolute shambles, it doesn't work. The only thing the VCRA did was cause hassle for genuine skirmishers and basically outlawed collectors and plinkers. The UKARA was also a retailers association, they all had a vested interest which meant they were looking after their own pockets, not the interests of the community.

-PornStar- wrote: »

That Bill will also tackle comprehensively the issue of airsoft guns. I wish to have an outright ban on these guns and to make possession of them in public a serious offence.

What strikes me here, is he's saying he wants to get rid of them completely but also make possessioin in public a serious offence? Well if they were banned completely, there would be no need to make possession an offence, they would just be outright illegal to have in any form.


As Shiva said, what gets shouted around in the Dail is normally hyped up, and I personally encourage some form of legislation to contol the sale of airsoft devices, however it must be done fairly and evenly so as not to limit any member of the community from purchasing, be they collector, skirmisher or plinker.

kevteljeur

Somewhere between the comfort of complacency and the adrenaline rush of hysteria lies a small thin strip of reason; this is an issue that will rarely be publicly discussed in that place.

Utreg

kdouglas wrote: »

The UKARA was also a retailers association, they all had a vested interest which meant they were looking after their own pockets, not the interests of the community.

But that would be in our interest as well wouldnt it?
If no one can have airsofts, whats the point of having a store?

kdouglas

In my personal opinion, no, you want an impartial, unbiased organisation that looks after the interests of all involved.

G3-Nut

Shiva wrote: »

I wouldnt get too hung up on what Deputy Aherne said there, to be honest.

Oftentimes, in the heat of a debate, phrases like that are uttered, promises made, chests thumped and oaths sworn....that ultimately fall by the wayside.

These are politicians, remember. They're not talking to each other across the table in a pub, they're debating a motion and aren't really interested in hearing each others opinions. They're playing to the public and media, and Deputy Aherne is saying what he thinks people want to hear. The opposition are trying to score points by tripping him up on facts, figures and details - thats how it works.

Theres no doubt restrictions are coming. We all acknowledge it, and the sane amongst us welcome them, as long as they aren't draconian and pointless.

The IAA have stated all along they want restrictions placed on who can buy airsoft devices, and legislation passed to make brandishing an airsoft gun a serious offence. We retailers want this, and even the unaffiliated airsoft retailers will welcome some kind of control, if only to safeguard our businesses.

It remains to be seen what shape the forthcoming restrictions take, and thats the battle the IAA are fighting. I mentioned over on the IAA forum that I was impressed by what I saw at the recent meeting with Deputy Flanagan, so I'm confident the interests of ALL airsofters, IAA members and non-members, are being well represented, and that airsoft will have a future in Ireland.

Until we see actual legislation, its pointless whipping ourselves into a frenzy every time one of the politicians mentions banning airsoft in a Dail debate - its just words thrown out to sound good in the media.

Actually i just realised that in a way you werent really a part of the IAA at the meeting, so technically i left you out of my thank you thread!! so on behalf of the squad and probably whole airsoft community, thanks T.:D

gandalf

Utreg wrote: »

But that would be in our interest as well wouldnt it?
If no one can have airsofts, whats the point of having a store?

Based on conversations with the Northern Ireland players the situation in the UK is a disaster. It doesn't represent the players or collectors at all and has stagnated the sport in the UK. Given time it may kill the sport due to lack of new players taking it up.

We definitely do not want that situation to happen here. What is needed is common sense from all sides, a restriction on under 18 sales and brandishing a replica in public and not on a authorised site an offence under Irish Law.

Airsofty

Hi, I agree in most part with everyone’s comments in relation to this - and I like others don’t believe they should be on sale to just about anyone who wants one, or that we shouldn’t have tighter control, but the real problem is separating the gadget type shops from legitimate retailers such as Eirsoft, Go Tactical, MIA from these other guys, as "Joe public" may not see the difference in who is selling what. Personally I would like to see a Serialized system of registration accompanied by photo copy of driver license or some form of ID taken and kept on or in a central database held somewhere neutral by retailers for each and every one sold such as the IAA. With a 1 Joules compliancy cert from the retailer, tamper proof labels used to Guarantee the product and protect the retailer if modifications are carried out by the end user. Official carry cases -agreed and recognizable to the garda would be a good Idea, to avoid a Garda opening a boot to find a boot full of guns.lol

Might seem a bit much, but in the event that somebody committed an offence involving airsoft products, it would give traceability for the Garda to follow up,and could serve to remove any ideas that all airsoft products are the same, this would also add professionalism and seriousness to this growing sport.

I suppose is short compliance and going beyond compliance will only serve to strengthen the legitimate community that already exists.

Spetzcong

tamper proof labels? So where does that leave those of us who like to modify the internals of our airsofts?

Airsofty

even a mountain bike has a serial number, and most electronics products have tamper proof labels...lol:D

kdouglas

I personally would most definitely not like to see serial numbers on every airsoft gun, for a starters, it's far too hard to implement, they dont have any serial numbers in the first place, so you'd have to have one put on, then there's the issue of online import and a whole host of other reasons why serial numbers and registration of every airsoft device is a bad idea.

A simpler solution is registration of the individual as an airsoft collector/skirmisher etc... and then that individual can import/buy as many airsoft devices as they like, however even that infringes on individual liberties and freedom.

Legislating sale in this country and making public brandishing a specific offence is a much better and realistic solution in my opinion. Keyword being realistic, it's all well and good coming up with grand plans on how things should work in theory, but in reality they have to be practical from all aspects.

gerrowadat

Spetzcong wrote: »

tamper proof labels? So where does that leave those of us who like to modify the internals of our airsofts?

It would be kinda nice if you could get a tamper proof label that certifies your gun as being chronoed by an affiliated site or retailer. It'd speed things up at the chrono at sites, certainly. If you mod your internals, you just gotta get officially chronoed again.

Airsofty

Good points raised, we live in an information age gents, :-) but I would see it as far less hassle and grand, as winding up with a complete ban on Airsoft devices being collected or used by the individual, taking paintball markers as an example. and or the prospect of winding up using a bright orange, green or pink device at a site... - cos that appears to be the route its going some countries.
Laws are forged on public opinion and are generally a blanket policy when they are introduced, so I’d rather see us as players have a stake in it and be more then compliant, then deal with the repercussions of laws introduced on the foot of some incident...

I live in Wicklow, and seen two kids randomly firing bb's around the place and at eachother just outside the estate I live in.. No goggles - Cheap spriner pistols - asking for trouble, - and just the type of thing that will give the sport a bad name if someone looses an eyeball, and would most defiantly be sensationalized by the media..[/FONT]

Nodin

kdouglas wrote: »

I personally would most definitely not like to see serial numbers on every airsoft gun, for a starters, it's far too hard to implement, they dont have any serial numbers in the first place, so you'd have to have one put on, then there's the issue of online import and a whole host of other reasons why serial numbers and registration of every airsoft device is a bad idea.

...not to mention that it gives legitamacy to the idea that its a weapon, as oppossed to (for want of a better expression) 'toy'.

OzCam

Airsofty wrote: »

Official carry cases -agreed and recognizable to the garda would be a good Idea, to avoid a Garda opening a boot to find a boot full of guns.

Cases don't need to be a standard design, in fact the lower profile the better.

All you have to do is declare to the Garda that you're carrying airsoft devices if s/he wants to search the vehicle and before you open the boot. That way they won't get any more stressed and if they don't know what airsoft is already you'll have an opportunity to reassure them.

"Yes, Guard, it's only a replica. It looks real, but it's harmless. See, here's where the BBs go in, here's the battery..."

Problem solved. Well, that particular one anyway


I'm quite happy with chrono stickers, as long as they don't give your position away.