WHAT CONVINCED YOU?

The Mad Hatter

sukikettle wrote: »

The bible wasn't written in one go it was written over fourteen centuries and it is infallible why don't you guys prove to me otherwise.

Which bible?

There is not a single contestable fact-fact!

Really? Because there's a whole lot in there that doesn't make sense, or that contradicts other stuff. Here's a list of factual errors and contradictions in the bible. That aught to do you for a start.

If you reject God your whole life why would He let you move in Kiffer?

You're attributing him with very human emotions. Isn't he supposed to have unlimited love and forgiveness?

And p.s. there is no eternal hell. The bible says the wages of sin is death.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with that.

You will be an eternal plume of smoke. If you hanker after hell because you want to do what you want that's what you'll get my friend.

You just said that there was no hell...

It's all about choices and look up any number of bible scholars ie David Pawson and Derek Prince for 81% fulfilled fact to name just a couple...I'm not a guy and I'm not speaking from swings and roundabouts

I have a good idea where you are speaking from. Can you give us an example of one clear prophecy that's been fulfilled. Just one. And none of this vague Oh-that-must-be-what-it-meant rubbish.

p.s. Dawkins is a religion to believe there is no God requires faith, God loves you Aidan my friend

Dawkins is a religion...

Do you have faith that there is no Santa Claus?

sukikettle

Madhatter the Old Testament predicted explicitly the life and death of Christ thousands of years before He came, how many duplicitous people would it take to usher in this one man. It's impossible unless pre-ordained. There is a hell to consume the unsaved as eternal hellfire and pain is not of God.
God does not act on emotion. He says accept my son as He has sacrificed Him for you. If you refuse Him you will die. It's very straight forward. The bible is infallible as your list is produced by writer(s) that have not had their ears supernaturally opened to the Word.The bible was produced over fifteen centuries by forty different writers and the end product is the last word. There are no inaccuracies. If you and I reported the trade towers incident a hundred years apart. You'd have people doubting the event took place because invariably my account will have more or less information, passion etc than yours. However in a hundred years people will have to rely on history that the trade towers took place. It's a bit rich that you openly trust accounts of other less important historical events but you'd question your Maker. Isn't that a tad audacious?

pH

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I can't even tell what side you are on.

What he's on is probably more relevant.

The Mad Hatter

sukikettle wrote: »

Madhatter the Old Testament predicted explicitly the life and death of Christ thousands of years before He came, how many duplicitous people would it take to usher in this one man. It's impossible unless pre-ordained.

Or the stories were adapted after the fact.

There is a hell to consume the unsaved as eternal hellfire and pain is not of God.

Hell or death? Which one? Make up your mind.

God does not act on emotion. He says accept my son as He has sacrificed Him for you. If you refuse Him you will die. It's very straight forward.

Death or hell? Which one? Make up your mind. What does he care if I accept him or not? If my actual father was as absent as your god, I wouldn't accept him, either.

The bible is infallible as your list is produced by writer(s) that have not had their ears supernaturally opened to the Word.

lol

I'm sorry, that's just too funny.

The bible was produced over fifteen centuries by forty different writers and the end product is the last word. There are no inaccuracies.

I've just pointed you at a bunch of them. Of course, they don't count because they were written by people who don't believe that the bible is infallible.

If you and I reported the trade towers incident a hundred years apart. You'd have people doubting the event took place because invariably my account will have more or less information, passion etc than yours. However in a hundred years people will have to rely on history that the trade towers took place.

And again I find your weird stream-of-consciousness-style posting extremely difficult to follow. I think what you're getting at is that if we both predicted before 2001 that the twin towers were going to be attacked, and we were right, then we'd have...er...both been right, and therefore the so-called predictions in the bible are accurate. Which doesn't really account for the fact that (a) the predictions in the bible are extremely vague (as all prophecies are), so they can easily be forced into a certain meaning after the fact, (b) that the only evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ is written in the same book that predicts all these things about him, and (c) that these 'predictions' could just as easily have been made up later.

It's a bit rich that you openly trust accounts of other less important historical events but you'd question your Maker. Isn't that a tad audacious?

There is no historical evidence for god.

Incidentally, while I would like to see you actually address my points this time, rather than spout a bunch of non-sequiturs and assertions about the bible that you have yet to provide any evidence for, I'd just like you to know that I am at least having a great time.

sink

TBH I don't know why anyone is even bothering to converse with sukikettle. Clearly nothing is going to sway her (or him?) except perhaps professional deprogramming and even that is only successful some of the time. And sukikettle if you are looking to save our souls from eternal damnation you're barking up the wrong tree especially with the approach you've taken.

sukikettle

Dear Hatter,
I feel your frustration. Funny how I'm just not.
I actually meant if we both recorded the incident after the fact!!!!!!!!!
File under 'Tea Party' my dear Rabbit
Our accounts would not look anything alike but they would contain the facts.
Funny how you find a supernatural God funny. Our ears are different. Mine are trained to God's Word. Yours aren't. You don't even like Him.
Death and Hell are eternal. They are the same but the saved will be able to see the plume of smoke of the damned.
And no the facts weren't distorted to accommodate Jesus. it would have been uncovered by the jewish rapidly who wait for it! rejected Jesus. Their own Old testament predicts His Life and Death and guess what it remains the same singular solid piece of proof. Now why would a non Christian jew conspire for the Christian

sukikettle

Sink can you go any lower?
I haven't targeted anyone. I'm repeating an age old message. And don't you think you need deprogramming I'm not the one being cheated out of my Kingdom inheritance. You are

mayordenis

sukikettle wrote: »

Madhatter the Old Testament predicted explicitly the life and death of Christ thousands of years before He came, how many duplicitous people would it take to usher in this one man. It's impossible unless pre-ordained. There is a hell to consume the unsaved as eternal hellfire and pain is not of God.
God does not act on emotion. He says accept my son as He has sacrificed Him for you. If you refuse Him you will die. It's very straight forward. The bible is infallible as your list is produced by writer(s) that have not had their ears supernaturally opened to the Word.The bible was produced over fifteen centuries by forty different writers and the end product is the last word. There are no inaccuracies. If you and I reported the trade towers incident a hundred years apart. You'd have people doubting the event took place because invariably my account will have more or less information, passion etc than yours. However in a hundred years people will have to rely on history that the trade towers took place. It's a bit rich that you openly trust accounts of other less important historical events but you'd question your Maker. Isn't that a tad audacious?

you keep alluding to proof,
what is different about the "writers" you speak and the writers the other's speak of?
What proof that book isn't proof, you can't even 100% say who wrote it.
and total nonsense about in 100 years people "will have to rely on history" to show 9/11 - It's such a random point, firstly there are videos of it.

A perfect example of all this is in a thread I don't really care about, it's in after hours about people in great britain calling irish people "southern Irish"

now history books in england make out the Irish to be attempting to illegally steal back the land in ireland from the rightful owners, Irish history books tell us that we were just trying to stand up for what was rightfully ours. You're relying on history point overall is completely backing up the well known quote “History is written by the victors.”

sukikettle

Mayor I'm talking about a written account not video footage and stick to the subject. The author of the bible is stated in each book. There are 66 of them and none of them were written anonymously. Believe it or not the bible has absoloutely nothing to gain as a hoax or being proven fallible.It was written for everyone born on this planet to let them know who God is. God's Holy Spirit is the inspiration behind each of the writers

The Mad Hatter

sink wrote: »

TBH I don't know why anyone is even bothering to converse with sukikettle. Clearly nothing is going to sway her (or him?) except perhaps professional deprogramming and even that is only successful some of the time. And sukikettle if you are looking to save our souls from eternal damnation you're barking up the wrong tree especially with the approach you've taken.

Personally, same reason I responded to Gareth37. It's all in good fun.

sukikettle wrote: »

Dear Hatter,
I feel your frustration. Funny how I'm just not.

Right, that post was actually fairly polite, so I'll try to respond in kind. But I don't understand what you've just said. I'm not really frustrated (I don't frustrate easily, generally, even if I seem to online) so much as amused.

I actually meant if we both recorded the incident after the fact!!!!!!!!!

Ah, right, sorry. But with the trade towers, we have video evidence. We don't have just two or ten or a hundred eyewitness accounts, but thousands.

File under 'Tea Party' my dear Rabbit

That reminds me, I must get back to work. I'll just finish this post first.

Our accounts would not look anything alike but they would contain the facts.

They would, but not necessarily all of the facts, nor would they necessarily be all-fact. We are both bound to miss things and imagine others - we're only human, after all.

Funny how you find a supernatural God funny. Our ears are different. Mine are trained to God's Word. Yours aren't. You don't even like Him.

Well, to like or dislike someone you have to know that they exist, so I don't think I really dislike god, although there are aspects of his character I find either inconsistent or distasteful or both.

Actually, on second thoughts, I can like or dislike characters who I know aren't real - I'm quite fond of Sonmi~451 from Cloud Atlas, for instance (sorry, it's the most recent book I've read), or (obviously) The Mad Hatter - but I still don't really feel either way about god.

Death and Hell are eternal. They are the same but the saved will be able to see the plume of smoke of the damned.

What I mean is that death is the end of everything, whereas hell is eternal torture. If I'm dead, I don't think I'll really mind being set on fire forever.

And no the facts weren't distorted to accommodate Jesus. it would have been uncovered by the jewish rapidly who wait for it! rejected Jesus. Their own Old testament predicts His Life and Death and guess what it remains the same singular solid piece of proof. Now why would a non Christian jew conspire for the Christian

Why did they reject him, then, if it wasn't that the man fit their prophecies? Surely if they spent all that time waiting for him, they'd have been glad for him to show up? Or were they, like me, not convinced?

Dades

sukikettle wrote: »

It's very straight forward.... The bible was produced over fifteen centuries by forty different writers and the end product is the last word.

Doesn't sound very straightforward to me.

Come on, suki, put us out our misery. Tell us about the prophesies!

kiffer

sukikettle

According to your bible everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell, take a look at Matthew 25:46 and John 5:28-28.
In fact I'll quote them for you to save you the trouble of looking them up.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Hell is also described as a place of pain and punishment. As you've said a few times ... read the bible it's in there somewhere...


If you can actually bring yourself to actually do some reading take a quick look at this.

Giving you the link is a bit of a risk mind you... as it has a couple of answers that could help you out when people call you out with "why would a loving god send someone to hell"... but seeing as you've never bothered backing up any of your claims with a direct reference (as far as I've noticed) if it does actually help you maybe it will make for a slightly more interesting debate...

2Scoops

sukikettle wrote: »

Find me where the bible is fallible.

Pi = 3?

AtomicHorror

sukikettle,

You've been provided with a link that lists several self-contradictory passages in the bible. Some are within the same book, others are in different ones.

Care to respond to these?

An example:

2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death"

2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"

Fanny Cradock

A reasonable explanation here. But maybe not so for those who subscribe to an inerrant bible.

The Mad Hatter

As far as I can tell, The Bible is inerrant if you believe it's inerrant, therefore it's inerrant. The people who made that list don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, so they can't be right when they point out errors.

Zombrex

2Scoops wrote: »

Pi = 3?

oh no you didn't!! <snaps fingers>

Zombrex

sukikettle wrote: »

Madhatter the Old Testament predicted explicitly the life and death of Christ thousands of years before He came, how many duplicitous people would it take to usher in this one man.

Well no actually it didn't (hence Jews rejecting Jesus as the Messiah)

But even if it did the prophecies are so vague and, more importantly, known at the time that it would be relatively easy for any cult leader or their followers to claim that they were the Messiah, particularly 40 years after the person died.

I would claim my Uncle Roy was the Messiah, and I can list off all the reasons why, and you would have a very hard time demonstrating that he wasn't when you only have my word to go on.

DinoBot

Don't think it was a single event which caused me to disbelieve in gods and demons. But as a kid I was brought up with many creation myths and informed about many religions.
I think when you study religion you build up a better picture of them as myth and not fact.

This is a nice time of year to tell the story of Mithra to children. Then let them make their own conclusions.

"Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator"

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html

20goto10

There was one simple question which started the ball rolling for me. I'd say I was about 8 years old and nobody could give me a straight answer to the question "If God created everything then who created God?".

p.s I'm still waiting for an answer.

javaboy

20goto10 wrote: »

There was one simple question which started the ball rolling for me. I'd say I was about 8 years old and nobody could give me a straight answer to the question "If God created everything then who created God?".

p.s I'm still waiting for an answer.

The LHC????

In fairness that question applies with/without God. e.g. What created the first bit of matter/energy pre-big bang?

20goto10

javaboy wrote: »

The LHC????

In fairness that question applies with/without God. e.g. What created the first bit of matter/energy pre-big bang?

Yes but thats kind of my point. He's just always been there. Well maybe the first bit of energy has just always been. Why is that so unbelievable yet a higher being with magical powers which has always been there should induce an "ahhhhh, i get it now, thanks for clarifying everything!".

javaboy

20goto10 wrote: »

Yes but thats kind of my point. He's just always been there. Well maybe the first bit of energy has just always been. Why is that so unbelievable yet a higher being with magical powers which has always been there should induce an "ahhhhh, i get it now, thanks for clarifying everything!".

There both pretty crazy things to think about in fairness. How did the energy get there? How did God get there?

They're both very similar questions. God is often given as the answer to the first but that only leaves you stuck with the second anyway. My point was simply that I wouldn't use that particular argument as a basis for dismissing religion/the existence of God.

20goto10

javaboy wrote: »

There both pretty crazy things to think about in fairness. How did the energy get there? How did God get there?

They're both very similar questions. God is often given as the answer to the first but that only leaves you stuck with the second anyway. My point was simply that I wouldn't use that particular argument as a basis for dismissing religion/the existence of God.

Neither would I. It's just what got me started questioning things....as an 8 year old

AtomicHorror

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

A reasonable explanation here. But maybe not so for those who subscribe to an inerrant bible.

They can't provide evidence that the error was made as they suggest, they can't show when it was introduced. And there's the issue. This is an error that is easy to detect. How many undetectable ones are there? More importantly, how many deliberate alterations were made to the various books when the number of copies was still small enough that we can expect never to find originals?

As far as I can see, the very conservative Christians take a huge risk relying on the bible as a source of authoritative morals.

Mena

sukikettle wrote: »

the bible is infallible

sukikettle wrote: »

The bible was produced over fifteen centuries by forty different writers

sukikettle wrote: »

The bible wasn't written in one go it was written over fourteen centuries and it is infallible

sukikettle wrote: »

The author of the bible is stated in each book. There are 66 of them and none of them were written anonymously.

So which is it?

javaboy

Mena wrote: »

So which is it?

The 66 was in reference to the number of books in the Bible not the number of authors. I assume the 14 and 15 mix up was a simple mistake.

Mena

javaboy wrote: »

The 66 was in reference to the number of books in the Bible not the number of authors. I assume the 14 and 15 mix up was a simple mistake.

Like any human author would make

ChocolateSauce

javaboy wrote: »

The 66 was in reference to the number of books in the Bible not the number of authors. I assume the 14 and 15 mix up was a simple mistake.

Or a blind inconsistency which is consistent with most Christians?

javaboy

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Or a blind inconsistency which is consistent with most Christians?

I think mixing up 14 and 15 is an easy enough mistake to make. We're not all infallible you know.