Tech Support for Aritech Alarm systems

Lector

Hi
Looks like I have to get the battery on my CS250 replaced - there was a power outage while we were on hols last week & now the alarm screen is saying 'CS-XXX keypad V1.5'.
My question is, how long do batteries normally last? We installed the alarm about 5 and a half years ago, & this is the second time we will have replaced the battery. As I understand it, the alarm is powered from the mains, and the battery only kicks in if there is a power outage. Last weeks is the first outage since the battery was changed 2 years ago.
Is this a normal lifespan for this battery. We lived in our last house for 10 years and as far as I remember we never had to replace the battery.

Thanks!

KoolKid

The norm would be 5 years or more.
However there is a known issue with the CS250 where the battery charge voltage drops over time. Have you a multi meter to check what that is.? It's also possible to increase this slightly with a pot on the board. It's not always enough though.

Lector

Thanks, I thought 2-3 years was a bit short. I'm not techie at all, so I have the engineer coming out on thursday to replace the battery... €125 :-(
Can he put a 'pot' on the board? sorry I don't know what that is.

KoolKid

Ask him to check the voltage & adjust that pot first. Because if that doesn't work your gonna be replacing the panel. No point in trowing bad money at this. If the voltage is low the same problem is going to come back..

altor

Lector wrote: »

Thanks, I thought 2-3 years was a bit short. I'm not techie at all, so I have the engineer coming out on thursday to replace the battery... €125 :-(
Can he put a 'pot' on the board? sorry I don't know what that is.

Also if he does replace the back up battery make sure it is the 12V 7 Amp one he uses, lasts longer in a power outage.

KoolKid

That won't solve the problem if its the low voltage on the battery charge .
I wouldn't be paying that just for the problem to reappear.
Also ask will they cover it if the problem reoccurs. That's what I do if i'm not 100% the charge voltage is sufficient.

altor

I know but if the installer was using the lower amp rated battery then that may be the reason for the drain on the battery and explain why it is dead after only 2-3 years.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I know but if the installer was using the lower amp rated battery then that may be the reason for the drain on the battery and explain why it is dead after only 2-3 years.

Nah... Its a well known issue with the CS250s . The battery will read low , but when you check the voltage on the battery leads it will be only 10 or 11 vdc.
Battery life will not reduce based on the amperage of the battery. This will only effect how long it will hold the system up without mains power.
Your could put a car battery on it and the voltage will drop if its not getting the correct charge.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Nah... Its a well known issue with the CS250s . The battery will read low , but when you check the voltage on the battery leads it will be only 10 or 11 vdc.
Battery life will not reduce based on the amperage of the battery. This will only effect how long it will hold the system up without mains power.
Your could put a car battery on it and the voltage will drop if its not getting the correct charge.

Nah...

That may not or turn out to be the case here.
Without looking at it ourselves or the OP coming back to us we will never know.

A lot of things can have an affect on the battery meaning a lower life expectancy. Yes correct as I have pointed out it is better to use the higher rated 7 Amp battery as a replacement for the same reason. If the lower rated battery was used then the battery could of drained when the mains power outage occurred. If that is the case and the battery cant charge from the panel then this would also cause the system to freeze as it is.

KoolKid

Its a simple solution to a very well known issue.Check the charge voltage. If that's OK its a dodgy battery.
If its not OK it doesn't matter what amperage the battery is ,it won't hold up if the charge voltage is not there. A 7 amp battery will last twice as long as a 3.5 amp battery in a power cut. To suggest a 7 amp battery is more reliable for any other reason or has a longer shelf life is simply misleading. Yes a lot of things can affect battery life, but those same things would affect a 2 amp battery,a 3 amp battery or a 7 amp battery.
If it does turn out to be a dodgy battery it could just as easily be a dodgy 7 amp one as any other size one..
The simple practice of checking the charge voltage sorts this problem in 2 minutes.
No point in complicating it.
Hopefully the OP will get back & let us know.
But my advice to him remains the same.
Do not pay a call out & battery charge if the charge voltage is low.
If that's the case no size battery will fix it. Don't let him tell you a bigger battery will solve it.
Ask for a guarantee on it if he's saying its OK and changes the battery.
I have come across way too many of this on the CS250s.

altor

Your getting the wrong end of the stick here.

My advice was if it turns out to be the battery make sure he replaces the battery with a 7 Amp battery as it lasts longer in a power outage.
Nothing misleading as your suggesting....

Another fault it could be is the keypad.

Anyway OP please do come back with the outcome to this problem

KoolKid

If I did apologies.
But below seems to suggest a 7 amp offers more life expectancy.

altor wrote: »

A lot of things can have an affect on the battery meaning a lower life expectancy. Yes correct as I have pointed out it is better to use the higher rated 7 Amp battery as a replacement for the same reason.

The fact is a lot of people use 7 amps because they are the cheapest,in many cases. The standards are that the battery must hold the system up for the required time . If a 2 or 3 amp battery does that then that's fine.
Lets not have the boys size contest with the bigger is better bragging.:rolleyes:
You don't put a 7amp battery on an Astec System do you?
Same way I wouldn't put a 35 amp battery on a CS350 just to say mines bigger & better. Way too many lads use this as a way of confusing some customers.

The main thing I'm trying to get across to the OP is that this is a well known issue & not to let the installer try to confuse the issue with new batteries or bigger batteries without looking at the obvious problems first. He's already after quoting the OP for a new battery when he really should be aware of this very obvious issue. Every installer worth their salt know about this problem.

altor

altor wrote: »

Also if he does replace the back up battery make sure it is the 12V 7 Amp one he uses, lasts longer in a power outage.

KoolKid wrote: »

If I did apologies.
But below seems to suggest a 7 amp offers more life expectancy.

KoolKid wrote: »

Battery life will not reduce based on the amperage of the battery. This will only effect how long it will hold the system up without mains power.

altor wrote: »

Yes correct as I have pointed out it is better to use the higher rated 7 Amp battery as a replacement for the same reason.

Apologies accepted.

KoolKid wrote: »

The fact is a lot of people use 7 amps because they are the cheapest,in many cases. The standards are that the battery must hold the system up for the required time . If a 2 or 3 amp battery does that then that's fine.
Lets not have the boys size contest with the bigger is better bragging.:rolleyes:
You don't put a 7amp battery on an Astec System do you?
Same way I wouldn't put a 35 amp battery on a CS350 just to say mines bigger & better. Way too many lads use this as a way of confusing some customers.

Its not a contest.
Giving someone advice to have a battery that holds up there system for longer makes sense if the system can take the battery.
Not agree

Any amp battery can be added to these systems once they are 12V.
To say that is confusing or misleading to make someone look better compared to other lads is also a silly comment.
I know I would rather have the higher Amp battery installed if it fit, wouldn't you

KoolKid wrote: »

The main thing I'm trying to get across to the OP is that this is a well known issue & not to let the installer try to confuse the issue with new batteries or bigger batteries without looking at the obvious problems first. He's already after quoting the OP for a new battery when he really should be aware of this very obvious issue. Every installer worth their salt know about this problem.

There is any number of reasons a system can go down, without physically looking at it we can only offer advice as we do here every day.
I am sure the OP knows what to look out for now..

KoolKid

Tp clarify from the out set. These are general observations & not aimed at you in any way.

My problem is giving advice that a bigger battery will solve issues with a battery charging when there may well be an obvious underlying problem.
My Problem is quoting a customer for another new battery after such a short period where this may well be a well known problem.

Fit the biggest battery that will fit????
There's plenty of room beside lots of my panels for a 20 or 30 amp UPS if I wanted. Many panels would have room for 2 7 amps , would I fit them ? No.
Its not needed.
The standards state whats required here and its very easy to calculate whats required. If installers want to believe they are bigger is better , go ahead, there's more important things they should be doing first. Like finding the obvious problems before quoting €125 for what might not be required.

I agree we can't be 100% here without looking at the panel and testing it.
Likewise we can't say a bigger battery will solve it.
What I would have done here is tell the customer this is a known issue with this make of panel. We will go out and take a look and check if that's the problem.
If it is we will quote you for a new panel or try increasing the charge voltage.
If its not fixable there is no charge & we will quote for upgrading if required.
If there is a possible fix we will try that with a guarantee if it doesn't work & the option of a refund or a reduction off a future upgrade.
Simple exact information where the customer can't lose.
I would think this is the obvious move before rushing to fit a 7 amp battery.
But then again there's more money in replacing the battery & gone. And if moneys the motivation the 7 amp battery's are usually the cheapest.

altor

The funny thing is no one said a bigger battery will solve the issue.

Anyway OP, please do let us know what the outcome is.

KoolKid

The funny thing is no one else suggested checking for the well known fault.
The funny thing is how the installer straight away suggested a new battery & quoted for the same.

altor

Why would they when that was covered in the first reply to the op???

Just because you suggest some thing does not mean your the only one to know about it.

There is any number of reasons to cause a fault on a system. As you have agreed a simple check of the system will either confirm or rule out this issue.

fred funk }{

That bug has only recently been admitted to by Aritech. Like the bug on the receivers causing the bus tampers, they kept stum for years.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Why would they when that was covered in the first reply to the op???

Just because you suggest some thing does not mean your the only one to know about it.

There is any number of reasons to cause a fault on a system. As you have agreed a simple check of the system will either confirm or rule out this issue.

I have said how surprised I was that this wasn't mentioned as it's such a known issue and you suggest I think I'm the only one to know about it?????
All along I have been hitting on about the installer not mentioning this. I am not having a go at you, why are you so argumentative and defensive on this.?
If you got a call like this,knowing this is an issue and knowing the battery was relatively new. Would you not tell the customer this and check the charge voltage before quoting for a new battery??

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

I have said how surprised I was that this wasn't mentioned as it's such a known issue and you suggest I think I'm the only one to know about it?????
All along I have been hitting on about the installer not mentioning this. I am not having a go at you, why are you so argumentative and defensive on this.?
If you got a call like this,knowing this is an issue and knowing the battery was relatively new. Would you not tell the customer this and check the charge voltage before quoting for a new battery??

The way your going on about it you would swear you where !!!

Anyway I am not arguing, if I was I would be disagreeing with what you have said might be the issue.

A correct diagnosis can not be made by a phone call or here on boards without looking at the system in question.

Lets just see what the OP comes back with.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

The way your going on about it you would swear you where !!!

Because I said what was the most obvious and well known issue.?
Lost me there I'm afraid.

altor wrote: »

Anyway I am not arguing, if I was I would be disagreeing with what you have said might be the issue.

So do you not think this could be the fault or do you not know the CS250s that well?

altor wrote: »

A correct diagnosis can not be made by a phone call or here on boards without looking at the system in question.

Exactly my point...Which is why I said the OP should not have been quoted for a battery and call out.
I have already said what I would do with a call like that. How would you handle it?

altor

Who is arguing :rolleyes:

KoolKid wrote: »

Because I said what was the most obvious and well known issue.?
Lost me there I'm afraid.

I would disagree with your statement there:

Most common faults after a power outage would be the battery itself if the mains was off for long enough and the battery could not get a charge back into itself.

As it is the keypad is showing (CS-XXX keypad V1.5). This alone does not indicate a problem with the battery. It may be the keypad itself, or even the control panel has stopped communicating with the keypad.

I will say it again, only a call out would determine the exact fault on this system as it could be a number of things.

KoolKid wrote: »

So do you not think this could be the fault or do you not know the CS250s that well?

Please, your just making me laugh now The CS250 was my panel of choice to install up until a few years ago. I have hundreds installed be that for myself and other company's I use to work for before I set up Altor Security

KoolKid wrote: »

Exactly my point...Which is why I said the OP should not have been quoted for a battery and call out.
I have already said what I would do with a call like that. How would you handle it?

It is not our place to make rules for other company's who may be not on here to defend themselves. It is OK for us to give our views but it should be left at that. Every company is different. It is up to a customer who they use. Giving a quote over the phone for a low battery on a system does not mean you know what system your going out to repair. Most people who ring me would not know what system they have installed.

I do a no fix no fee on all service calls.
The system would be tested to see what the fault was, it can either be fixed or not. If it needed a part that I did not have with me then I would return with the part. I have more parts than I will ever need so this is rare. If the system was not repairable then I would explain this to the customer, then ask if they want me to quote for the upgrade of the system and leave it in there hands.

KoolKid

Getting , nowhere with this.
We agree on one thing the customer should not be charged if the problem is not fixable.
Someone quoting for a new battery after being told the thing is relatively new is either trying to get a few bob for a handy call or is not very well experienced.
I do however, find it strange that you have worked with the CS250 so much yet you wouldn't agree how well known this issue is & you wouldn't consider this issue first.

Some people just love to argue , just for the sake of it.....

altor

I know what you mean, some people just like to make up arguments as they go along.....

If the keypad was showing a low battery after the battery being installed only two years ago then I would consider this first, but the fact remains the keypad is showing (CS-XXX keypad V1.5) not low battery.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I know what you mean, some people just like to make up arguments as they go along.....

I know , I once had someone argue with me that there should be zero resistance on an alarm zone.And this was someone who was well up on alarms.
Even though resistance is behind the basic working of most wired alarms.

Anyway back to this problem.

altor wrote: »

If the keypad was showing a low battery after the battery being installed only two years ago then I would consider this first, but the fact remains the keypad is showing (CS-XXX keypad V1.5) not low battery.

And in all your experience with CS250s have you not seen this when the battery has run low?? The first thing I do when I see this on a 250 keypad is to check the battery.

altor

Off topic post :rolleyes:

KoolKid

Not really. I was responding in relation to the previous posters quote and elaborating on it. I can post examples if you like.
I was also asking a question in relation to the same post. I'm waiting for an answer.

Evolution1

Lads can we stop the arguing ?
Does the Op need a battery or is it a bug? I'm lost .....

KoolKid

Evolution1 wrote: »

Lads can we stop the arguing ?
Does the Op need a battery or is it a bug? I'm lost .....

Hi Evolution1.
He may need a battery , but it looks very like a very well known issue with the CS250 where the battery charge voltage drops off over time.
Its the first thing most installers familiar with the CS250 would look for after a battery being changed a relativly short time ago.

Evolution1

Ok, isn't there another bug with the system that causes it to show a battery fault or mains fault ? It has to be cleared by pressing the 'ok' key or ' no ' key