Ireland v New Zealand; Croke Park 5.15pm (pre/during/post discussion thread)

Serenity Now! · 17-11-2008 3:38pm

Real FM wrote: »

I think our fundemental problems started at scrum half and outhalf. Yes O'leary didn't play badly but at an international standard his passes are far too slow. Similarly his passes are far too flat. In turn this led to our back line being too flat in attack. Since the ref didnt pick up on numerous offsides nz took advantage of this, what good side wouldnt?

The halfback's pass to the first-five doesn't determine how flat a backline runs. Its how the first-five delivers the ball that does this. O'Leary has a better pass than Cowan, for example. And yes, its quicker.

Real FM wrote: »

In terms of outhalf, well I dont need to go into how bad o'gara was. The main problems was that we had no1 to replace him. It just shows how reliant on o'gara we are. We cant really expect to put a player like Paddy Wallace on the pitch for an entire half against the New Zealand/Fiji/Somoa first team. Imagine if he had a strong game - surely our game as a whole would have improved.

O'Gara had a bad day with the kicking game. This was the basis of Ireland's problems. Due to the constant barracking at the breakdown, the only way to get out of pressure in their own quarter was to boot the ball for territory. It didn't go well as you will know.

Your jibe ("New Zealand/Fiji/Somoa") about the All Blacks team is a sad old myth. Aside from Sivivatu, which of those players wasn't brought up in New Zealand? Answer? Brad Thorn.
Another question: How many players on the Fijian, Samoan and Tongan sides are NOT from New Zealand? As an example, on the Pac Islanders squad, the answer is 3 (Bobo, Vaki, Bai).

twinytwo · 17-11-2008 3:58pm

thehighground wrote: »

New Zealand Press on the game.

Interesting the players picked out by them here as having a good game: John Hayes, Alan Quinlan, Luke Fitzgerald and Tomas O'Leary.
David Leggat: The strife of Brian hits again [Ireland v All Blacks]
4:00AM Monday Nov 17, 2008
By David Leggat

All Blacks' Grand Slam tour

For 39 minutes, it was shaping as a belting contest. Then it all went wrong for Ireland.

And the blame sits squarely with Brian O'Driscoll. The Irish captain's relationship with the All Blacks will never be warm and embracing, courtesy of his being dumped out of the Lions tour a minute into their first test in Christchurch three years ago.

O'Driscoll took his dislocated shoulder injury, and the manner in which it happened, badly.

To many hardcore All Black fans, of course, that made him an Irish whinger, a view which takes no account of the fact that the two All Blacks who ended his tour got off scot-free for an appalling piece of handiwork.

So you think O'Driscoll's desire to break his country's test duck after 103 years of trying has hardened since then?

A minute before halftime, and with Ireland's Ronan O'Gara having walloped a fine long-distance penalty to make it 3-all, it was all on.

Ireland had defended stoutheartedly, had a few moments going forward and in young second five-eighths Luke Fitzgerald and flanker Alan Quinlan possessed respectively a fleet-footed attacker with real zest, and an old-fashioned hard nut to whom a backward step belongs in a tango.

The 82,000 voices were readying a Croke Park roar for when the battle resumed, and the longer Ireland stayed close, surely the greater resonance of the roar.

So when O'Driscoll gathered one of those aimless backwards-and-forwards kicks that punctuate the game these days, the clock had already ticked past 40 minutes. Step into touch and head for the tunnel with Irish tails up.

Instead, the richly gifted centre, whose instinctive desire to attack is usually a good thing, popped a little dinky kick over the top into All Black hands. It was a moment in the life of this Brian to forget.

About a minute later, Ireland's wing Tommy Bowe was punching the ball into the in-goal area to prevent Richie McCaw from scoring, and South African referee Mark Lawrence was awarding a penalty try and giving Bowe 10 minutes on the sideline.

There's little point speculating what might have transpired had O'Driscoll done the smart, the sensible, the logical thing and stepped out. But unquestionably his actions decisively tilted the test the All Blacks' way.

Until then, there had been a sense that although the All Blacks were pressing, Ireland had held firm; their scrum - even including big, bald, amiable John Hayes who has always looked incapable of scrummaging a blancmange - was holding up. Their tackling was sound, their debutant halfback Tomas O'Leary looked distinctly useful.

There could be no complaints at the penalty-try decision, but when Lawrence pulled out his yellow card it was a double whammy against the Irish and desperately tough.

Lawrence, a referee known to have a few tickets on himself, could have used common sense. The penalty try was surely sufficient punishment.

When Tony Woodcock got his sin-binning for a punch unseen by any camera, the All Blacks scored 12 points. They won easing away, and most likely would have even without O'Driscoll's blunder. But it would have been fun finding out.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10543382&pnum=0

I love the way it dosent metion the fact that when drico chipped the ball forward and went to chase it the winger ran into him to make sure he couldnt( Why did he kick it on.. fullback was out of position round the winger or whoever it was and he moters to ther try line)... ie foul... linesman put the flag up and everything.. ref says play on even though he didnt see what happened... blunder my ass more like retarded referee....As for bowe correct me if im wrong but the ref said that the pen try was for knocked the ball out on purpose then he carded him for interfering with the try ie... the same thing. Without a doubt we would have lost the game but what was the story with keeping paul on when he could barely walk?? that contributed to another try

RugbyFanatic · 17-11-2008 4:23pm

thehighground wrote: »

It was the difference of walking into the dressing room 3-3 with the Kiwis at half-time and look forward to recommencing the battle with 15 men and not 14. A huge psychological blow.

Something similar (bad decision making) happened when Ireland lost to France in Croke Park. BOD wasn't to blame that day though.

It was actually a very good decision considering the FB and winger were out of position could of ended in a try if BOD wasn't taken off the ball.

edit : beaten to it ^^^^^^^^

louthandproud · 17-11-2008 4:26pm

twinytwo wrote: »

I love the way it dosent metion the fact that when drico chipped the ball forward and went to chase it the winger ran into him to make sure he couldnt

I'm not so sure that BOD didn't run into the winger to try to get a penalty (soccer style). He seemed to go down awfully easy.

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2008 4:28pm

I don't agree with blaming BOD for what would have been great opportunistic rugby. What I would say is, given that NZ made a habit of obstructing our players in that game, it's a pity that such a move was always doomed...

Real FM · 17-11-2008 4:39pm

I may sound like an old broken record but just because its an old issue doesnt mean its not a relevant one. There was 4 Samoans and 2 Fijians in the match day 22. Maybe if those 6 players were playing for their birth countries there wouldn to be a need for Samoa or Fiji to use New Zealanders. Thats a problem the IRB should be sorting out - New Zealand just tend to make the most of it.

O'Leary simply doesn't cut it as a scrum half (yet) in these big fixtures. Regardless of the backline he was feeding O'Gara far too flatly. Just look how the added pressure effected his kicking. The 20th second of the game says it all really.

Hippo · 17-11-2008 4:47pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I don't agree with blaming BOD for what would have been great opportunistic rugby. What I would say is, given that NZ made a habit of obstructing our players in that game, it's a pity that such a move was always doomed...

I thought he went down a bit dramatically in that incident simply to try and draw attention to this perpetual AB tactic.

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2008 4:57pm

Real FM wrote: »

I may sound like an old broken record but just because its an old issue doesnt mean its not a relevant one. There was 4 Samoans and 2 Fijians in the match day 22. Maybe if those 6 players were playing for their birth countries there wouldn to be a need for Samoa or Fiji to use New Zealanders. Thats a problem the IRB should be sorting out - New Zealand just tend to make the most of it.

O'Leary simply doesn't cut it as a scrum half (yet) in these big fixtures. Regardless of the backline he was feeding O'Gara far too flatly. Just look how the added pressure effected his kicking. The 20th second of the game says it all really.

Very little they can do about that.

Hippo wrote: »

I thought he went down a bit dramatically in that incident simply to try and draw attention to this perpetual AB tactic.

You might be right. I noticed a fair few obstructions, and tbh the NZers were generally bigger, so it was a bit of a disadvantage.

Serenity Now! · 17-11-2008 5:00pm

Real FM wrote: »

I may sound like an old broken record but just because its an old issue doesnt mean its not a relevant one. There was 4 Samoans and 2 Fijians in the match day 22. Maybe if those 6 players were playing for their birth countries there wouldn to be a need for Samoa or Fiji to use New Zealanders. Thats a problem the IRB should be sorting out - New Zealand just tend to make the most of it

They are New Zealanders and have earned themselves the right to consider themselves as such by living there since they were kids. They are not "Samoans and Fijians". The IRB can do nothing about who a player chooses to declare for, if that player qualifies to do so. Nothing.

So what if some are born outside NZ? Ronan O'Gara and Jamie Heaslip were born outside Ireland. Are they, respectively, an American and an Israeli as a result?

twinytwo · 17-11-2008 5:04pm

Hippo wrote: »

I thought he went down a bit dramatically in that incident simply to try and draw attention to this perpetual AB tactic.

It was done to dempsey on more than one occasion...Any one else think that Earls should have been on the wing with kearney in fb??...I think that the refs tend to over look alot of the all black infrindgements because they are the all blacks... Good old richie was playing offside a fair bit and attacking line were often infront of the dan before he kicked the ball which was only picked up on once...BUt sure what can ya do... on an off not.. who thinks this new rules are slowly ruining rugby.. the ball seems to be kicked now more than ever.

twinytwo · 17-11-2008 5:06pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

They are New Zealanders and have earned themselves the right to consider themselves as such by living there since they were kids. They are not "Samoans and Fijians". The IRB can do nothing about who a player chooses to declare for, if that player qualifies to do so. Nothing.

So what if some are born outside NZ? Ronan O'Gara and Jamie Heaslip were born outside Ireland. Are they, respectively, an American and an Israeli as a result?

what used to happen back in the day was that if u had young player coming through who was playing his club rugby in NZ.. the clubs would not release him for international with his home country therefore the only chyance he had to play international rugby was to play for the all blacks

Serenity Now! · 17-11-2008 5:15pm

twinytwo wrote: »

what used to happen back in the day was that if u had young player coming through who was playing his club rugby in NZ.. the clubs would not release him for international with his home country therefore the only chyance he had to play international rugby was to play for the all blacks

Pre-2000, players could change international teams (eg.Jamie Joseph, Tiaan Strauss, Patricio Noriega) regardless of having played senior, 'A' or 7s for anyone else.

RugbyFanatic · 17-11-2008 5:20pm

louthandproud wrote: »

I'm not so sure that BOD didn't run into the winger to try to get a penalty (soccer style). He seemed to go down awfully easy.

hence why the linesman (right beside the inciddent) put up his flag?

Come off it.

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2008 5:34pm

twinytwo wrote: »

It was done to dempsey on more than one occasion...Any one else think that Earls should have been on the wing with kearney in fb??...I think that the refs tend to over look alot of the all black infrindgements because they are the all blacks... Good old richie was playing offside a fair bit and attacking line were often infront of the dan before he kicked the ball which was only picked up on once...BUt sure what can ya do... on an off not.. who thinks this new rules are slowly ruining rugby.. the ball seems to be kicked now more than ever.

I think Earls would have struggled mightily against that NZ backline. The lads not yet perfect under the highball, and there's no doubt he'd have been targeted by the NZ backs. It's all well and good starting international rugby early, but too early and you'll end up getting humilated and hurt. Matt Tait's probably one of the best England running backs in years, but that didn't stop Henson destroying him.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

They are New Zealanders and have earned themselves the right to consider themselves as such by living there since they were kids. They are not "Samoans and Fijians". The IRB can do nothing about who a player chooses to declare for, if that player qualifies to do so. Nothing.

So what if some are born outside NZ? Ronan O'Gara and Jamie Heaslip were born outside Ireland. Are they, respectively, an American and an Israeli as a result?

Arguable. Sivivatu was 15 when he moved to New Zealand.

Goodluck2me · 17-11-2008 5:36pm

Typical plucky Ireland again it seemed.

O'leary I thought was excellent and certainly adds to selection problems for Kidney, his speed at the breakdown was excellent, and if we got a bit more go forward ball he certainly would have been the catalyst we needed to break through.

O gara again very soft in the tackle, but other than that I thought everyone stood up quite well.
I always laugh when people give out abotu ODriscoll being passed it, by the very virtue of him being there he creates space for Fitz et al outside him.

I think Kidney left himself in a bit of bind with lack of 2nd row cover, and most likley O Connell would have been taken off earlier if that, or indeed the line-out per se was going a bit better.

I'd like to see some new faces against Argentina, they are a top-class side and will take some beating and should prove a good test to any potential future internationals. Johne Murphy I know very little about, but I doubt he got those awards for nothing (unless they just voted for "murphy"

)

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2008 5:40pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

Typical plucky Ireland again it seemed.

O'leary I thought was excellent and certainly adds to selection problems for Kidney, his speed at the breakdown was excellent, and if we got a bit more go forward ball he certainly would have been the catalyst we needed to break through.

O gara again very soft in the tackle, but other than that I thought everyone stood up quite well.
I always laugh when people give out abotu ODriscoll being passed it, by the very virtue of him being there he creates space for Fitz et al outside him.

I think Kidney left himself in a bit of bind with lack of 2nd row cover, and most likley O Connell would have been taken off earlier if that, or indeed the line-out per se was going a bit better.

I'd like to see some new faces against Argentina, they are a top-class side and will take some beating and should prove a good test to any potential future internationals. Johne Murphy I know very little about, but I doubt he got those awards for nothing (unless they just voted for "murphy" )

O'Gara's actually older than O'Driscoll, ffs. :P

BoD was our outstanding player on Saturday. O'Leary looked good, but he doesn't get the ball out fast enough, and his passing's quite flat. He could do with working on those two things.

twinytwo · 17-11-2008 5:41pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

O'Gara's actually older than O'Driscoll, ffs. :P

BoD was our outstanding player on Saturday. O'Leary looked good, but he doesn't get the ball out fast enough, and his passing's quite flat. He could do with working on those two things.

if Drico stays on form possibility of 13 for the lions??.. maybe?

premierstone · 17-11-2008 5:46pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

O'Gara's actually older than O'Driscoll, ffs. :P

BoD was our outstanding player on Saturday. O'Leary looked good, but he doesn't get the ball out fast enough, and his passing's quite flat. He could do with working on those two things.

Must have been watching a different game to me, ffs he was good but to say he was our best player is crazy, he wasnt even our best centre and David Wallace was streets ahead of him imo.

Real FM · 17-11-2008 5:47pm

twinytwo wrote: »

what used to happen back in the day was that if u had young player coming through who was playing his club rugby in NZ.. the clubs would not release him for international with his home country therefore the only chyance he had to play international rugby was to play for the all blacks

Sounds like good sportsmanship from the new zealand clubs... wonder if it happened to any of the 6 lads who were in the squad this weekend or the 8 foreign born players in their 2007 squad. You believe none of these had a desire to play for the country they were born in?

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2008 5:52pm

twinytwo wrote: »

if Drico stays on form possibility of 13 for the lions??.. maybe?

Who else is better at 13?

premierstone wrote: »

Must have been watching a different game to me, ffs he was good but to say he was our best player is crazy, he wasnt even our best centre and David Wallace was streets ahead of him imo.

Wallace being the same guy who threw away our best chance for a try? ^^

O'Driscoll actually attempted to play, he looked intelligent and tidy, and his passing was usually decent. Defensively he was quite strong, as he usually is. Fitzgerald also looked very decent, and that's certainly going to be a centre partnership to worry about for plenty of other teams.

twinytwo · 17-11-2008 6:20pm

speaking of fitzy.. any word on darcy.. i no he has to get a 3rd operation.. anyone know anything?

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2008 6:30pm

twinytwo wrote: »

speaking of fitzy.. any word on darcy.. i no he has to get a 3rd operation.. anyone know anything?

BBC were talking to him during halftime. I know this because I flicked during the ads. (Go me.) Anyway, there's an x-ray this week. In an ideal world, he'll be back in a few weeks.

Serenity Now! · 17-11-2008 7:28pm

twinytwo wrote: »

if Drico stays on form possibility of 13 for the lions??.. maybe?

He actually played inside centre for most of the game when in defence and outside on some moves in possession.

jayteecork · 17-11-2008 7:30pm

This whole Croke Park thing doesn't seem to be working for us at all.

Besides the England game we've played horrendous in every game there.

Serenity Now! · 17-11-2008 7:58pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

I'd like to see some new faces against Argentina, they are a top-class side and will take some beating and should prove a good test to any potential future internationals. Johne Murphy I know very little about, but I doubt he got those awards for nothing (unless they just voted for "murphy" )

Team won't be announced until thursday due to some fitness tests following some injuries.
Fingers crossed that key players won't be missing.

louthandproud · 17-11-2008 8:27pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

O'Gara's actually older than O'Driscoll, ffs. :P

BoD was our outstanding player on Saturday. O'Leary looked good, but he doesn't get the ball out fast enough, and his passing's quite flat. He could do with working on those two things.

BOD was our outstanding player? Are you for real?

He played pretty well apart from a very suspect attempt to win a penalty, a move that eventually led to the penalty try. He certainly was far from outstanding.

Wallace was the most outstanding Irish player(if we had one at all, which we didn't really), and no he wasn't the person that threw away our best try scoring chance, assuming you know when that was.

RugbyFanatic · 17-11-2008 9:00pm

louthandproud wrote: »

He played pretty well apart from a very suspect attempt to win a penalty, a move that eventually led to the penalty try. He certainly was far from outstanding.

Pretty suspect?? the linesman who was right beside the inciddent put his flag up it was the refs fault for allowing that move to continue

But I suppose you know better than the linesman standing a couple of feet away from the inciddent :rolleyes:

anonymous_joe · 17-11-2008 9:13pm

louthandproud wrote: »

BOD was our outstanding player? Are you for real?

He played pretty well apart from a very suspect attempt to win a penalty, a move that eventually led to the penalty try. He certainly was far from outstanding.

Wallace was the most outstanding Irish player(if we had one at all, which we didn't really), and no he wasn't the person that threw away our best try scoring chance, assuming you know when that was.

Outstanding in this context implies he was our best player. He held our defence together well in the first half.

David Wallace played great, which is a problem, because he was absolutely the wrong player to go up against McCaw. Wallace did well attacking the All Blacks, but that's

Stev_o · 17-11-2008 9:18pm

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Pretty suspect?? the linesman who was right beside the inciddent put his flag up it was the refs fault for allowing that move to continue

But I suppose you know better than the linesman standing a couple of feet away from the inciddent :rolleyes:

Would you say the same for the infamous Horgan try against England in 2006? Where the linesman did the exact same thing raised his flag then dropped it? Sometime tells me you dont.

Micky Dolenz · 17-11-2008 9:21pm

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Pretty suspect?? the linesman who was right beside the inciddent put his flag up it was the refs fault for allowing that move to continue

But I suppose you know better than the linesman standing a couple of feet away from the inciddent :rolleyes:

To be fair, the ref spotted it and called play on. I think ref was getting a bit sick of the linesmen making calls for him.

Ireland v New Zealand; Croke Park 5.15pm (pre/during/post discussion thread)

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