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Dublin Outer Orbital Route (DOOR)
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10-11-2008 1:38am#1Ok so I've got the crayons out again. There seems to be debate between two routes for the DOOR, which I'll call "Inner" and "Outer", as shown on the map below. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So. what are the pros and cons for each route?
Inner:
Pros:
- Shorter route; less road to build
- Provides better access between the satellite towns west of Dublin (Naas, Clane, Maynooth, Kilcock, Dunshaughlin)
- Shorter route to Bremore Port
Outer:
Pros:
- Provides direct link between Navan and Drogheda
What do yous think are the pros and cons? Are there better routes than these? Should it even be built at all?0
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Ok so I've got the crayons out again. There seems to be debate between two routes for the DOOR, which I'll call "Inner" and "Outer", as shown on the map below. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So. what are the pros and cons for each route?
Inner:
Pros:
- Shorter route; less road to build
- Provides better access between the satellite towns west of Dublin (Naas, Clane, Maynooth, Kilcock, Dunshaughlin)
- Shorter route to Bremore Port
Outer:
Pros:
- Provides direct link between Navan and Drogheda
What do yous think are the pros and cons? Are there better routes than these? Should it even be built at all?
Well the inner orbital, acts more for a commuter type road. We have an upgraded M50, a Dublin outer ring road and R local roads feeding the towns of Clane, Maynooth and Naas etc.
The outer road, will attract more long distance traffic that wishes to avoid the city and the commuter belt. And this should be enough to explain what DOOR is actually for?0 -
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lostexpectation wrote: »could ya link to your sources for that (text whatever)
Sorry, don't get you. Sources for what? 0 -
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Firstly I would like to thank the OP for the map. Great idea to start a thread and I should make a habit of similar scribblings
I think it will be a continuation of the N9 northwards, I always thought that funnily enough .
It will follow the inner route between the N4 and N2 and will terminate at the proposed Bremore Port near Balbriggan ...ie Further In than the inner route .I don't mean to come across as a cynic, but this seems to be complete pie in the sky.
Actually it is not . It could have 25-30k+ tolled vehicles a day over much of its length and if the Bremore port is built it also would have loads of trucks which would gladly avoid the M50 and its rather congested approaches .When has the DOOR last been mentioned officially? Spongebob, you're the man with the info: what's the thinking in the corridors of the NRA and Finance about this scheme? When would they like to start construction? Do they have any money at all for this?
It was last mentioned by Dempsey in October 2008 when he chopped a load of road projects and said the DOOR would not get new funds during 2009 .And a parochial question. When the MIUs are done, what's the priority of this versus the ARC?
According to Fred Barry CEO of the NRA the DOOR IS the "priority" and Transport 21/ARC is not the priority
Fred has basically given the ARC and Transport21 the finger , he is not interested in following government policy and probably wants his PPP mates to get a slice of the pie for the usual 35 years
Various costs from €1bn-3bn are mooted. I can see why it is vague
Do remember that the busy N4 TOLL section near Kinnegad cost €14m a KM under a PPP while the FREE section west of Kinnegad cost €8m a KM on a non PPP.
The much less busy tolled Galway - Ballinasloe section was estimated by the NRA to cost €475m construction for 57km ( plus land costs) and they got it away for €130m on a PPP .
Assuming land costs of about €100m on that stretch the PPP cost half the alternative but only based on about 10k car movements a day I should think.
The Galway Ballinasloe PPP bid was for about €5m a km + €2m land costs or €7m a km total cost . Land would cost more to the east but as the terrain is easy I could see the DOOR costing as little as €400m to build on that basis .
It would be nearer €0 with 30k cars a day and would probably make the state money if (as I heard ) a toll is added somewhere on the M9 as part of the 'concession' .
It is because it may well cost the state very little if indeed nothing that Fred and the Dept of Finance consider it a priority.
The ARC will average under 20k cars a day on its busier central section between (Tuam)Galway and Cork(Midleton) and about 10k a day on the rest of it save close to Waterford and Sligo
See
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/83642bn-navan-to-newbridge-orbital-road-a-top-priority-1375632.htmlTHE National Roads Authority (NRA) plans to make construction of a motorway outside the M50 and linking Navan to Newbridge a "priority" within the next two years, a conference was told yesterday.NRA chief executive Fred Barry said once the inter-urban motorways linking Dublin with Cork, Limerick, and Galway were completed in 2010, planning would begin on the Leinster Outer Orbital, which would connect with most of the main routes out of the capital
and
http://www.roadsireland.com/index.php/?cat=4€1bn NAVAN TO NEWBRIDGE ROUTE A PRIORITY
Construction of an outer orbital route for the M50 is to be made a priority by the National Roads Authority within the next two years, NRA Chief Executive, Fred Barry, has revealed.
Once the major inter-urban motorways linking Dublin with the other main cities are completed in 2010, planning would begin on what is being called the Leinster Outer Orbital Route which will connect with most of the main routes out of the capital.
The cost of the new 80km route is being put at €3bn. It would run outside the M50 and link the M1 near Drogheda, through the N2 at Slane, the N3 at Navan and the N4 at Kilkock, lining into the M7 at Kilcullen.0 -
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An interesting thread...
I posted my proposal for this route on another thread, so I may as well just post it here too. Nothing really that different from the OP, it's kinda inbetween both their inner and outer routes...
That route manages to mash Bru na Boinne and Tara....the hippie's would love you!!
AFAIK there are quite a few archaelogical sites round Naul too which would be the approximate route into Bremore.0 -
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LOL @ that Mysterious.
Mind you the original Paris M50 , the 1970s design Perepherique, is one scary mother of a road and I think there are two other rings outside that but neither was quite finished a few years back .
Point taken about going north of Navan and Drogheda rather than south of them and possibly skirt Ardee and Collon to connect with the M1 around Dunleer .
If it were a genuine Leinster Orbital not just another Dublin Orbital it should go from Drogheda ish , Mullingar ish , Portlaoise ...ish Kilkenny ish , Gorey ish . But no.
Shall we name it the M51 and be done with it 0 -
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That simply must be wrong. The route hasn't been decided yet anyway, so they're probably bluffing.
By the way, that website epitomizes everything I loathe about these "business parks". Just look at the photo - a plain green area with 4 boulders just dropped there, presumably as some sort of 'decorative' feature. The people who design our buildings and roads, whoever they are, simply have no sense of the aesthetic. Our country is tending to look like shight. 0 -
That simply must be wrong. The route hasn't been decided yet anyway, so they're probably bluffing.
By the way, that website epitomizes everything I loathe about these "business parks". Just look at the photo - a plain green area with 4 boulders just dropped there, presumably as some sort of 'decorative' feature. The people who design our buildings and roads, whoever they are, simply have no sense of the aesthetic. Our country is tending to look like shight.
Yes, business parks tend to look like crap... this will be no exception to the rule I'm sure... I guess putting huge chunks of debris in the middle of a green is a new type of decorative "style" that I'm unawre of. Hopefully the MSAs will have some sort of aesthetic nicities, but my money's on them being huge concrete blocks with the odd attractive glazing...
Anyway, I've just realised that the website contradicts its own map when it says this:OUTER ORBITAL MOTORWAY
The proposed new orbital motorway will run outside the M50 and will extend to approximately 80 km, linking the M1 close to Drogheda, through the N2 at Slane, the N3 at Navan, the N4 at Kilcock and the M7 at Kilcullen, close to the M7/M9 interchange.
That's no-where near where they had the DOOR leading to on their map...
And it shouldn't be starting close to the M7/M9 interchange, it should be starting ON the M7/M9 interchange. Why dump Waterford/South-Belfast/North traffic unnecessarily onto the M7?0 -
These are not important facts, and just stupid wastful excuses for you to want an inner orbital of the commuter belt. We want to balance our motorway network and intergrate with the rest of the country. That is the purpose of Door.Ireland is not big mysterious, and its cities are small. Hence traffic between these small cities is fairly low. Compared to France or England, anyway. Long distance inter-city movements make up a minor % of total traffic movements on the M50. Lets remove it yes, but lets not rashly build a hugely expensive highway that will have relatively low usage, when a shorter version will do much the same job. There's f*** all money left, and our public transport needs most of it.
To Connect the Cork, Limerick, Galway and the rest of the country with the North and east without having to swing towards Dublin.
That is the purpose of DOOR.
End of f*** story. Inner route, would cause more concentration of traffic and urban sprawl on the pheriphal of Dublin. It would defenately create more urban sprawl with the surrounding commuter towns. The inner route is just not a good sensible route at all, in terms of the objectives DOOR was orignally planned for.
So you say that not much traffic will use DOOR? Then why, do you want to have an inner route proposed, that will not reach the population catchements the outer door can provide.
Your arguments are getting pathetic and really contradictory, if not biased for your needs of an inner route regardless. (rolls eyes)
So instead lets build more roads around Dublin YAY, the inner route perfect, that actually is Dublin's commuter belt? When you said that, your whole arguement is stupid and flawed........................... Really you DO NOT understand how traffic works, especially when you, want DOOR to be the inner option.
Seriously you don't have a clue.The inner route appears to meet these objectives though.
Not half as good as what the outer can do! So the Outer is more logical. So less of the opinions.
Not only will Dublin be bypassed with the outer route, but it will help connect the Midlands and the rest of the country much better. Navan, Mullingar and Dundalk would be better connected to each other. It's not just the Inter urban cities that will benifet as you keep only saying.
Plus : We will not have to spend more money on building an upgraded N52 as expense of having a outer orbital connecting the midlands to the rest of the motorway network.
If we opted for the inner route, we would still need an N52 2+2 aswell. Combining the Inner and upgraded N52 would be better fullfilled by allowing the outer route for DOOR. Makes more sense, and saves more money The outer route seems far more logical as the outer reaches large population catchments (a large percentage would touch the N52 catchment) and does two things, drive inter urban traffic away from Dublin and also connect the rest of the country. The inner cannot do both of these as effectively, FACT.
The outer route, saves money in the long run!
It also will help to drive hungry investment into the country, to help create more conterbalance towards Dublin. Which this country needs.
The inner will create urban sprawl, and attract more traffic around Dublin. Where as the Outer route, will better connect the country, and attract more integratiion within the country, and not focus purely towards Dublin.The inner isn't "connecting Dublin", its bypassing it with minimal radius. What journey could a Dubliner use it for? Please tell me.
Again to remind you EXACTLY what DOOR's purpose is for
Dublin already has a second outer ring road built,with the Northern sections already under construction. We need our motorway network integrated. There is enough Motorways around Dublin at present.The M25 orbits a city of 10 million people, a planet's worth of difference. The midlands doesn't need a motorway spine (maybe in the future but not now). It just needs an improved N road network.
Exactly Dublin doesn't need a second M50.Again, they are huge cities! And the DOOR isn't a true orbital at all, its a fairly linear bypass. Tell me, what unwanted traffic could potentially "spill onto" the inner route?
The country needs a proper motorway network. Hense Outer route will solve more problems than a commuter inner motorway your calling for:) Like it or not.No surprise there its the dominant city much like Dublin. But on a vastly larger scale. What's your point? Build a motorway from Galway to Belfast?
What's the point in telling you my points' when
A. I've made my point's clear
B It's self explanatory
C. We need to have a proper motorway system. Outer route solves this more effectively.I take it you mean east of Paris. Listen, Lyon is the size of Dublin and Dijon the size of Cork. Of course they get to have dedicated routes. Apart from Dublin, Cork and Belfast, there are no population centres here to justify that kind of network. For the Cork-Belfast trip, the inner would work perfectly well, and they are the two largest cities concerned here.
DOOR is vital, and even more so when the inter urban's finishes in 2010. Every single motorway will lead to Dublin. We need a spine motorway to intergrate the network properly and not solely towards Dublin, as not everyone wants to go to Dublin. Our motorway network is really really bad planned out LA.
The outer would be far better, as Belfast - Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford/Athlone/Navan would be better connected with the North of Ireland and Leinster directly by an outer route, than steering towards Dublin by a second M50.... You argument, is very obvious, as you just personally want an inner by pass of the Pale, for your needs. The countries needs come first, and that is what DOOR is and will provided.
In seeing the bigger picture, yes. I believe you are.Well I guess I'm clueless mate, you'll have to enlighten me. (You haven't so far).0 -
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Maybe, or we might have Ireland's first ramp meters, just to add to the nightmare...
In all seriousness, as idiotic as the design I drew might be, I would not put it past the NRA to plonk a roundabout in the middle of the M7/M9/DOOR interchange. They have zero-innovation.
Look at the M6/M17/M18 and M22/M20 interchanges for previews of what they'll most likely to do here...0 -
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Route Options are unlikely to be unveiled before the local elections in any eventuality , too controversial in certain cases .
I would think maybe they will be unveiled any time between late 2009 and early 2011 with final route selection by end 2011 . This is a guess .
I am more interested in the outer option seeing as the N80 N51 and N52 are dire and will need bypassing and expensive upgrades if the Inner route is followed. The objective is surely to negate the need for those upgrades and to provide network resilience against M50 congestion.
I must confess that I am minded to go with a variant on what Mysterious said ,start it from the N33 in Dunleer ( with an upgrade to the M1-N33 to freeflow ) then south of Ardee then to Lobinstown then to Tankardstown NW of navan and then head south to East of Trim, East of Enfield and thence to the N7/N9 megajunction and spaceport
I certainly hope it is the very first project that is done after the Atlantic Road Corridor and M4 past Longford and M11 to Rosslare have been completed as urgent national priorities.0 -
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The thread title is bollox anyway . We are discussing what was and still is OFFICIALLY called the
LEINSTER OUTER ORBITAL
even though it is geographically a Leinster Inner or Dublin Outer or Pale Central Orbital...take your picks I suppose
Deputy Noel Dempsey: I propose to take Questions Nos. 71 and 123 together.As Minister for Transport, I have responsibility for overall policy and funding in respect of the national roads programme element of Transport 21. The implementation of individual national road projects is a matter for the National Roads Authority, NRA, under the Roads Act 1993 in conjunction with the relevant local authorities.
In 2007, the NRA completed an updated feasibility study, which built on an earlier 2001 study, that considered, in particular, the costs and benefits of what has become known as the Leinster outer orbital route.
The updated NRA study, which was forwarded to my Department in 2007, finds there is merit in an orbital route linking Drogheda, Navan, Trim and Naas. Neither Transport 21 nor the national development plan provides any funding for such a scheme to be brought to construction in the period to 2015. The Government has already made clear, under Transport 21, that priorities for the roads investment programme, after the completion of the major interurban network in 2010, will be the Atlantic road corridor as well as the improvement of other key national primary routes and the targeted improvement of certain national secondary routes.
The Minister for Finance has indicated his determination to seek to avoid any diminution of the capital provisions already made in the period to 2015, notwithstanding the current economic difficulties. The Leinster orbital route proposal remains an important potential element of our longer-term infrastructural development. My Department will continue to liaise with the roads and planning authorities concerned to ensure that the route options are preserved free of impediment for this potential project.0 -
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Sponge Bob wrote: »The thread title is bollox anyway . We are discussing what was and still is OFFICIALLY called the
LEINSTER OUTER ORBITAL
even though it is geographically a Leinster Inner or Dublin Outer or Pale Central Orbital...take your picks I suppose
Leinster Outer Orbital makes no sense. First of all, where is "outer" Leinster? Second, an orbital is a full circle.
Its the Dublin Outer Bypass, really.0 -
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