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Dublin Outer Orbital Route (DOOR)

Aard

Ok so I've got the crayons out again. There seems to be debate between two routes for the DOOR, which I'll call "Inner" and "Outer", as shown on the map below. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So. what are the pros and cons for each route?

Inner:
Pros:
- Shorter route; less road to build
- Provides better access between the satellite towns west of Dublin (Naas, Clane, Maynooth, Kilcock, Dunshaughlin)
- Shorter route to Bremore Port

Outer:
Pros:
- Provides direct link between Navan and Drogheda

What do yous think are the pros and cons? Are there better routes than these? Should it even be built at all?

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mysterious

Aard wrote: »

Ok so I've got the crayons out again. There seems to be debate between two routes for the DOOR, which I'll call "Inner" and "Outer", as shown on the map below. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So. what are the pros and cons for each route?

Inner:
Pros:
- Shorter route; less road to build
- Provides better access between the satellite towns west of Dublin (Naas, Clane, Maynooth, Kilcock, Dunshaughlin)
- Shorter route to Bremore Port

Outer:
Pros:
- Provides direct link between Navan and Drogheda

What do yous think are the pros and cons? Are there better routes than these? Should it even be built at all?

Well the inner orbital, acts more for a commuter type road. We have an upgraded M50, a Dublin outer ring road and R local roads feeding the towns of Clane, Maynooth and Naas etc.

The outer road, will attract more long distance traffic that wishes to avoid the city and the commuter belt. And this should be enough to explain what DOOR is actually for?

TheNog

Inner DOOR Cons -

problem hitting Maynooth. Would need to relocate junction with the M4 between Enfield and Kilcock.
Problem when getting to Naas/Sallins - would need to be relocated further south on the M7 between Naas and the M9 junction

Outer Pros -

Take traffic away from Slane and Navan

Cons-
It would almost definitely run into problems at Tara/Skyrne with the hippies

D.L.R.

If junction issues could be resolved, the inner route. It strikes a balance of being far enough outside the commuter belt, without being needlessly long and looping.

All Dublin's commuter traffic would be headed to/from the city anyway, so that is a non issue. Dublin commuters would have no reason to use either option.

But the outer route serves Navan and Trim, which is good also.

One thing your map is missing is the M3. That changes things a bit. Its possible part of it could be incorporated into the DOOR as there is a section that goes roughly Northbound. But then you get into weaving issues etc.

G_R

i think the inner one looks good

it will link the sattelite towns of naas maynooth etc, and its far enough out of town so that it wouldn't become overly congested and it isnt brining people who want to bypass dublin to far out of their way either

TheNog

On a side note, I am guessing any DOOR will be heavily tolled with at least 3 tolls on it. The M1 toll at Drogheda, M3 toll between Dunshaughlin and Navan and the M4 at Enfield.

The Swordsman

The inner route for me. However, it should meet the M1 as near to the proposed Bremore port as possible (missing out Duleek, if necessary).

That way, if Bremore goes ahead, it can be connected to the DOOR more easily.

lostexpectation

could ya link to your sources for that (text whatever)

The Swordsman

lostexpectation wrote: »

could ya link to your sources for that (text whatever)

Sorry, don't get you. Sources for what?

Stupido

you are forgetting about the world heritage site that is the bend in the boyne.....newgrange, knowth et al.

The "outer" route will be north of navan & slane for this reason.

LostinBlanch

You're all forgetting the most important thing. Which developers with links to certain political parties have landbanks on which route?

That will be the defining factor IMO.

Amtmann

I don't mean to come across as a cynic, but this seems to be complete pie in the sky.

When has the DOOR last been mentioned officially? Spongebob, you're the man with the info: what's the thinking in the corridors of the NRA and Finance about this scheme? When would they like to start construction? Do they have any money at all for this?

serfboard

Furet wrote: »

what's the thinking in the corridors of the NRA and Finance about this scheme? When would they like to start construction? Do they have any money at all for this?

And a parochial question. When the MIUs are done, what's the priority of this versus the ARC?

L1011

TheNog wrote: »

Inner DOOR Cons -

problem hitting Maynooth. Would need to relocate junction with the M4 between Enfield and Kilcock.

The Maynooth-M4 interchange needs re-engineering as it is, this wouldn't have to be a bad thing.

That said I don't think this is going to get built at all.

Sponge Bob

Firstly I would like to thank the OP for the map. Great idea to start a thread and I should make a habit of similar scribblings

I think it will be a continuation of the N9 northwards, I always thought that funnily enough .

It will follow the inner route between the N4 and N2 and will terminate at the proposed Bremore Port near Balbriggan ...ie Further In than the inner route .

Furet wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as a cynic, but this seems to be complete pie in the sky.

Actually it is not . It could have 25-30k+ tolled vehicles a day over much of its length and if the Bremore port is built it also would have loads of trucks which would gladly avoid the M50 and its rather congested approaches .

When has the DOOR last been mentioned officially? Spongebob, you're the man with the info: what's the thinking in the corridors of the NRA and Finance about this scheme? When would they like to start construction? Do they have any money at all for this?

It was last mentioned by Dempsey in October 2008 when he chopped a load of road projects and said the DOOR would not get new funds during 2009 .

serfboard wrote: »

And a parochial question. When the MIUs are done, what's the priority of this versus the ARC?

According to Fred Barry CEO of the NRA the DOOR IS the "priority" and Transport 21/ARC is not the priority

Fred has basically given the ARC and Transport21 the finger , he is not interested in following government policy and probably wants his PPP mates to get a slice of the pie for the usual 35 years

Various costs from €1bn-3bn are mooted. I can see why it is vague

Do remember that the busy N4 TOLL section near Kinnegad cost €14m a KM under a PPP while the FREE section west of Kinnegad cost €8m a KM on a non PPP.

The much less busy tolled Galway - Ballinasloe section was estimated by the NRA to cost €475m construction for 57km ( plus land costs) and they got it away for €130m on a PPP .

Assuming land costs of about €100m on that stretch the PPP cost half the alternative but only based on about 10k car movements a day I should think.

The Galway Ballinasloe PPP bid was for about €5m a km + €2m land costs or €7m a km total cost . Land would cost more to the east but as the terrain is easy I could see the DOOR costing as little as €400m to build on that basis .

It would be nearer €0 with 30k cars a day and would probably make the state money if (as I heard ) a toll is added somewhere on the M9 as part of the 'concession' .

It is because it may well cost the state very little if indeed nothing that Fred and the Dept of Finance consider it a priority.

The ARC will average under 20k cars a day on its busier central section between (Tuam)Galway and Cork(Midleton) and about 10k a day on the rest of it save close to Waterford and Sligo

See

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/83642bn-navan-to-newbridge-orbital-road-a-top-priority-1375632.html

THE National Roads Authority (NRA) plans to make construction of a motorway outside the M50 and linking Navan to Newbridge a "priority" within the next two years, a conference was told yesterday.NRA chief executive Fred Barry said once the inter-urban motorways linking Dublin with Cork, Limerick, and Galway were completed in 2010, planning would begin on the Leinster Outer Orbital, which would connect with most of the main routes out of the capital

and

http://www.roadsireland.com/index.php/?cat=4

€1bn NAVAN TO NEWBRIDGE ROUTE A PRIORITY

Construction of an outer orbital route for the M50 is to be made a priority by the National Roads Authority within the next two years, NRA Chief Executive, Fred Barry, has revealed.

Once the major inter-urban motorways linking Dublin with the other main cities are completed in 2010, planning would begin on what is being called the Leinster Outer Orbital Route which will connect with most of the main routes out of the capital.

The cost of the new 80km route is being put at €3bn. It would run outside the M50 and link the M1 near Drogheda, through the N2 at Slane, the N3 at Navan and the N4 at Kilkock, lining into the M7 at Kilcullen.

Well I assume and hope that Newlands Cross is of higher priority then DOOR?

Also I couldn't imagine there being three tolls on it, that would mean someone travelling Cork to Belfast would have to pay 6 tolls!!

If they actually did this, I assume most people would bypass it and just use the M50.

BluntGuy

An interesting thread...

I posted my proposal for this route on another thread, so I may as well just post it here too. Nothing really that different from the OP, it's kinda inbetween both their inner and outer routes...

aquascrotum

BluntGuy wrote: »

An interesting thread...

I posted my proposal for this route on another thread, so I may as well just post it here too. Nothing really that different from the OP, it's kinda inbetween both their inner and outer routes...

That route manages to mash Bru na Boinne and Tara....the hippie's would love you!!

AFAIK there are quite a few archaelogical sites round Naul too which would be the approximate route into Bremore.

Seth Brundle

IIRC the Blundelstown interchange on the M3 will intersect with the DOOR.

On the different maps above, where will the tolls be?

@aquascrotum - FYI not everyone who objects to the destruction within Tara/Skryne is a hippy!

Bluetonic

aquascrotum wrote: »

AFAIK there are quite a few archaelogical sites round Naul too which would be the approximate route into Bremore.

....and thats without pointing out that the proposed Bremore Port site is already a national monument, having tombs there which are dated older than Newgrange.

D.L.R.

kbannon wrote: »

IIRC the Blundelstown interchange on the M3 will intersect with the DOOR.

where'd you hear that?

Seth Brundle

That I currently don't recall. I actually thought I heard it on here!

vincenzolorenzo

Don't like the inner one cos it basically goes straight through my house! :eek:(Just outside clane)

The Swordsman

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Don't like the inner one cos it basically goes straight through my house! :eek:(Just outside clane)

Just think of the compo :cool::D

Kashkai

I don't like teh outer one as it runs through my house........... oh and you can keep the compo. It took 3 years to build the damn house and I'm not starting again.

Now all I have to do is bury a few old ornaments and get the place listed as a heritage site:cool:

mysterious

many of the transport amateurs on this thread just DO NOT get it.:mad:

This route is not for the benifet of you personally, or whether you live close to the inner or the outer proposed routes.

THIS route was proposed,

To keep long distance traffic away from Dublin, who wishes to avoid Dublin.
It's main function is to connect and intergrate Ireland's motorway network. Which is currently not so, As all motorways end up at the M50.

The outer route should start at the M9 and actually go North of Navan and Drogeheda. The majority of traffic using this road will be long distance inter city movements.

I.e

Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and the south/west to connect to the East and North.

THAT IS THE OBJECTIVE. less of this "but the inner looks lovely" "the outer looks a bit off the mark" that is BS.

The outer route is whats needed to connect the country's road network. Not connect Dublin again purely. Dublin is already connected to the Motorway network as every motorway currently focuses towards Dublin. This country needs a motorway spine through the midlands. We don't want another "M25"

London and Paris have outer orbitals, and they are failed examples. They have to keep widening them because much of the countries motorway are spilling onto them. In France for example they are trying to fix this, by building motorways away from Paris, who wishes to avoid Paris for example, not go through Paris.

For Example people in Dijion who want to go Nantes have to go through some of Paris Ring roads to feed onto the Nantes routes. Now they are building cross country motorways that go direct to destinations of Principal cities, without Paris been enroute. Much of the traffic does not need to to Paris, yet all roads lead to Paris.

about 90km west of Paris is a North south autoroute to Allow traffic from Lyon and Dijion to proceed to the North of France towards Lillies and the North coast, years before you would most likely have to travel near Paris's radial network.

This inner route is f"""""" thick, and anyone who thinks that the inner route is best, is obviously clueless as to how Motorway transportation works.

Sponge Bob

LOL @ that Mysterious.

Mind you the original Paris M50 , the 1970s design Perepherique, is one scary mother of a road

and I think there are two other rings outside that but neither was quite finished a few years back .

Point taken about going north of Navan and Drogheda rather than south of them and possibly skirt Ardee and Collon to connect with the M1 around Dunleer .

If it were a genuine Leinster Orbital not just another Dublin Orbital it should go from Drogheda ish , Mullingar ish , Portlaoise ...ish Kilkenny ish , Gorey ish . But no.

Shall we name it the M51 and be done with it

BluntGuy

Well I think both my route (and the author's Outer Route) would be the most effective (with modifications to avoid heritage sites etc.).

If we were to move it any further out, the costs would become astronomical.

I tried to create a route that was as far out from Dublin as feasibly possible, while still attracting an AADT that would attract a PPP consortium (seeing as that's the way the project may possibly proceed). The route is for long distance traffic, I agree, and it should start at the M9, that's a given, but it should still stray close to Drogheda and Navan so as to attract potential drivers who would otherwise use the M50.

The M1, M3, M4 (and hence M6), M7 (and hence M8) and M9 will all be connected to this route, thus finally intergrating the motorway network.

And it goes without saying that the M7/M9/MXX (whatever they call the DOOR) should be free-flow, and that the M1/MXX should be free-flow. The rest should be at LEAST be partial-free-flow, except for the one or two junctions that will only connect to local roads. I would almost argue that all motorway junctions should be freeflow, but I have doubts that the M3/MXX and M4/MXX would attract the necessary traffic to warrant such a junction.

D.L.R.

mysterious wrote: »

The outer route should start at the M9 and actually go North of Navan and Drogeheda. The majority of traffic using this road will be long distance inter city movements.

Ireland is not big mysterious, and its cities are small. Hence traffic between these small cities is fairly low. Compared to France or England, anyway. Long distance inter-city movements make up a minor % of total traffic movements on the M50. Lets remove it yes, but lets not rashly build a hugely expensive highway that will have relatively low usage, when a shorter version will do much the same job. There's f*** all money left, and our public transport needs most of it.

mysterious wrote: »

The outer route should start at the M9 and actually go North of Navan and Drogeheda. The majority of traffic using this road will be long distance inter city movements.

I.e

Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and the south/west to connect to the East and North.

THAT IS THE OBJECTIVE. less of this "but the inner looks lovely" "the outer looks a bit off the mark" that is BS.

The inner route appears to meet these objectives though.

mysterious wrote: »

The outer route is whats needed to connect the country's road network. Not connect Dublin again purely. Dublin is already connected to the Motorway network as every motorway currently focuses towards Dublin. This country needs a motorway spine through the midlands. We don't want another "M25"

The inner isn't "connecting Dublin", its bypassing it with minimal radius. What journey could a Dubliner use it for? Please tell me. The M25 orbits a city of 10 million people, a planet's worth of difference. The midlands doesn't need a motorway spine (maybe in the future but not now). It just needs an improved N road network.

mysterious wrote: »

London and Paris have outer orbitals, and they are failed examples. They have to keep widening them because much of the countries motorway are spilling onto them. In France for example they are trying to fix this, by building motorways away from Paris, who wishes to avoid Paris for example, not go through Paris.

Again, they are huge cities! And the DOOR isn't a true orbital at all, its a fairly linear bypass. Tell me, what unwanted traffic could potentially "spill onto" the inner route?

mysterious wrote: »

For Example people in Dijion who want to go Nantes have to go through some of Paris Ring roads to feed onto the Nantes routes. Now they are building cross country motorways that go direct to destinations of Principal cities, without Paris been enroute. Much of the traffic does not need to to Paris, yet all roads lead to Paris.

No surprise there its the dominant city much like Dublin. But on a vastly larger scale. What's your point? Build a motorway from Galway to Belfast?

mysterious wrote: »

about 90km west of Paris is a North south autoroute to Allow traffic from Lyon and Dijion to proceed to the North of France towards Lillies and the North coast, years before you would most likely have to travel near Paris's radial network.

I take it you mean east of Paris. Listen, Lyon is the size of Dublin and Dijon the size of Cork. Of course they get to have dedicated routes. Apart from Dublin, Cork and Belfast, there are no population centres here to justify that kind of network. For the Cork-Belfast trip, the inner would work perfectly well, and they are the two largest cities concerned here.

mysterious wrote: »

This inner route is f"""""" thick, and anyone who thinks that the inner route is best, is obviously clueless as to how Motorway transportation works.

Well I guess I'm clueless mate, you'll have to enlighten me. (You haven't so far).

BluntGuy

According to this:

http://www.m1.ie/location/

... the DOOR route will start at Naas. :eek:

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

According to this:

http://www.m1.ie/location/

... the DOOR route will start at Naas. :eek:

That simply must be wrong. The route hasn't been decided yet anyway, so they're probably bluffing.

By the way, that website epitomizes everything I loathe about these "business parks". Just look at the photo - a plain green area with 4 boulders just dropped there, presumably as some sort of 'decorative' feature. The people who design our buildings and roads, whoever they are, simply have no sense of the aesthetic. Our country is tending to look like shight.