Are Athiests evil?

CDfm

rockbeer wrote: »

The more interesting question is what, if anything, christians such as yourself feel you should do about those who bring your faith into disrepute by claiming to be able to judge on god's behalf here on earth. Are you happy to let them at it? Or do you think you have a responsibility to try to convince them of the error of their ways?

It does bug me a bit that people do it.

If I see it -I say it.

No I dont have a responsibility to convince them. Lots of them know scripture better than I do. Some atheists too know lots more on the subject than I do.

Anyway - but if people claim to represent me or my beliefs- then I have no problem tackling it- especially if they misrepresent my beliefs.

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

Morality and ethics are subjective. We apply them to our lives - based on what we know and our experiences..

Well that is a pretty non-Christian interpretation. Most Christians that I've discussed this with would say that God decides what is moral and what isn't. If you think something is moral but God disagrees then you are wrong.

Some (including myself) have argued that morality then just becomes subjective to God will, but some people see this as the same as morality being objective (universal) as they see God as everything.

CDfm wrote: »

Being descended from Adam makes you human - it doesnt make you evil.

It does to some people, again depending on interpretation of Christian belief.

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

Well that is a pretty non-Christian interpretation. Most Christians that I've discussed this with would say that God decides what is moral and what isn't. If you think something is moral but God disagrees then you are wrong.

Some (including myself) have argued that morality then just becomes subjective to God will, but some people see this as the same as morality being objective (universal) as they see God as everything.


It does to some people, again depending on interpretation of Christian belief.

It is there if you read the NT.

God guides and you decide. You have free will.

Well you have to really as I dont have a flock of sheep, slaves or a vinyard.

That may sound a bit off message for some. But morality has to be subjective as the world evolves and it is adaptive.

Can you explain morality being subjective to gods will in a bit more detail.

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

It is there if you read the NT.

God guides and you decide. You have free will.

Once again I find myself scanning over my previous post trying to figure out what part of it your reply correspond to.

I never mentioned anything about free will ...

CDfm wrote: »

Can you explain morality being subjective to gods will in a bit more detail.

It can be explained in one simple sentence - God decides what is good or bad

Do you disagree?

Can you (or someone) decide something that God has decreed is morally bad is in fact morally good and still be correct? (it would be an interesting position for a Christian to take). Or are you wrong and God is right, universally.

For example, God (according to the Bible) views sexual relationships outside of marriage is being morally bad. Does that make it morally bad, universally, or can someone else decide that God is in fact wrong, and that sexual relationships outside of marriage are in fact, ok?

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

Once again I find myself scanning over my previous post trying to figure out what part of it your reply correspond to.

I never mentioned anything about free will ...



It can be explained in one simple sentence - God decides what is good or bad

Do you disagree?

Can you (or someone) decide something that God has decreed is morally bad is in fact morally good and still be correct? (it would be an interesting position for a Christian to take). Or are you wrong and God is right, universally.

For example, God (according to the Bible) views sexual relationships outside of marriage is being morally bad. Does that make it morally bad, universally, or can someone else decide that God is in fact wrong, and that sexual relationships outside of marriage are in fact, ok?

I will get back on this later - but yes free will is part of the package.

CiDeRmAn

Being morally bad is quite a distance from being "evil".
I guess a good definition of evil is needed, and I would suppose "evil" is a word describing a pattern of behaviour completely independant of religious opinion, I mean, it would seem obvious that Pol Pot was evil, or Hitler or perhaps Torquemada, but was Cromwell?
I mean, from a certain point of view, namely a British one, he is a hero, but to people of an Irish mindset, more specifically a Catholic one, he is the devil incarnate.

When is someone "evil", is doing what you feel is necessary to forge a nation, like the oppression of a people such as Mao and the Chinese, is this behaviour "Evil" or doing what must be done to create a stable future.

I'm sure, had the Nazi's won WWII we would all be sitting about, speaking German thinking how lucky we were to be brought under the umbrella of safety of the 3rd reich, Pax Germanica perhaps, and yet this would have been a stability built on the blood of millions, the oppression of tens of millions.
My question is, how many other evil deeds have been done to provide the lifestyle and safe culture we enjoy? Have evil deeds been done in our name and the dark results swept away?
Like in the US, the obliteration of the native people, In Europe the alternate subjugation of Catholics by Protestants, Protestants by Catholics and in some places the subjugation of Protestants by other Protestants.

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

Once again I find myself scanning over my previous post trying to figure out what part of it your reply correspond to.

It can be explained in one simple sentence - God decides what is good or bad

I find myself checking if I am posting on the right thread.

God has given man free will.

A lot of Christian belief is aspirational.Moral belefs etc are like a lifestyle coach.You live life as best you can with what you are dealt with. A world where everything fell into place would be Utopia.Thats not what weve got. Ethics is the application of moral beliefs.

On extra marital sex - Solomon is up there with most rock stars - minimum 1001 -if you count the Queen of Sheeba. Abraham =enough said. The bible said it happened and they got on with life.

So we do the best we can with what we have. So yes morality is subjective and ethically we have a responsibility to look after ourselves and those we love as best as we can.

Jesus Wept

Yes. They are hellbound.

Is hellbound one word or two?

CDfm

The-Rigger wrote: »

Yes. They are hellbound.

Is hellbound one word or two?

Tamangoes is one word

Jesus Wept

How does that relate

CDfm

The-Rigger wrote: »

How does that relate

Tamangoes - I wouldnt be seen dead there. Especially on a Tuesday night.

CiDeRmAn

Tamangoes, where the gang goes, THE GANGS OF EVIL ATHEISTS THAT IS, MWAA HA HA!

Although I haven't been there in years, they refused us all entry because a mate was on crutches, the evil feckers!

Ultimately CDfm is right, the bible would suggest there are two sets of laws, one, by man, on which you will be judged here on earth by mankind, and Gods rules as set by himself, and those ones will be judged on, yup, judgement day.
I guess the implication therefore is that no man can judge you by Gods laws and, presumably, the half dozen speeding tickets aren't going to follow you into the afterlife either.

Dave!

The-Rigger wrote: »

Yes. They are hellbound.

Is hellbound one word or two?

CDfm wrote: »

Tamangoes is one word

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

God has given man free will.

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning that, as it seems utterly irrelevant to the conversation we were having a few posts ago.

Are you trying to say that God has given us the ability to decide for ourselves if something is good or bad? As I said before that seems to be a rather unChristian idea. Can you decide God is wrong when he declares something, such as premarital sex, as immoral?

CDfm wrote: »

A lot of Christian belief is aspirational.Moral belefs etc are like a lifestyle coach.You live life as best you can with what you are dealt with.

Yes, but who decides what is "best you can"

If you decides that living with your 17 year old gay boyfriend out of wed lock is the best life you can lead, where as God decides it isn't, are you right? Are you still leading the best life you can?

God has given you the choice to do that, but has he given you the choice to decide that it is best, that it is moral and good?

CDfm wrote: »

On extra marital sex - Solomon is up there with most rock stars - minimum 1001 -if you count the Queen of Sheeba. Abraham =enough said. The bible said it happened and they got on with life.

Again that sentence, aside from not making any sense, has no connection to my previous posts.

CDfm wrote: »

So we do the best we can with what we have.

Irrelevant to the question I asked you. I asked you who decides what is actually best (what is moral), you or God.

It is a pretty simple question CDfm, I'm not sure from your off topic, meandering, stream of consciousness replies (Solomon?, the Queen of Sheeba?) do to you not understand the question or simply too much sugar in your diet.

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

Are you trying to say that God has given us the ability to decide for ourselves if something is good or bad? As I said before that seems to be a rather unChristian idea.


Irrelevant to the question I asked you. I asked you who decides what is do to you not understand the question or simply too much sugar in your diet.

The concept of free will is implicit in mankind. God has given us the ability to decide.

Whether or not the choice is moral or ethical ( ethics being applied morals) is individual as long as its not illegal. So the choice of course of action and the responsibility for it is yours and yours alone.

Belief in God and knowledge of the bible -gives us the ability to make informed decisions appropriate to our situation.

Just take sex. The bible tells us this has been an issue since the dawn of time - Soloman had direct dialogue with God on it. Jesus interupted a stoning on it. So if God recognised that it was a tricky issue -how come everyone else is so definate about it. Search me and Im a believer.

The ethical part is that you apply the morals as best you can to your life as these things are not at all clear cut.

So you decide - whats moral or ethical - on the basis that you believe it and you cannot lie to God. I imagine God has a mechanism to decide whether you were ethical.

Either way its not mans call to judge you on the choices - man can only judge on whether or not what you do is legal. The whole God issue is between you and God. As mankind cannot judge -it also cannot judge whether or not non-Christians will recieve mercy.

AS to my chocolate intake - its irrelevant to this - but it was a whole chocolate orange -minty - and decadent.

wolfsbane

CDfm wrote: »

Morality and ethics are subjective. We apply them to our lives - based on what we know and our experiences..

Being descended from Adam makes you human - it doesnt make you evil. Im a man and I cant categorise you either way. All I can say is that according to my beliefs its only God who can judge that.

Christ kinda said dont be too judgemental. So I cant judge you by Gods law. But if you commit a crime I can only judge you by mans laws.

I do think some posters go to far in categorising atheists - especially as a central tenet of religion is not being able to quantify Gods mercy etc and for Christian believers not to judge. So I am pointing this out as a general point - maybe others differ.

It would be best if we used 'evil' in the Biblical sense/s. The moral usuage is clear - those who commit sin and are unforgiven. There are degrees of evil, of course, and that is where you are trying to make a distinction between good and evil - but it is not the Biblical distinction.

As to our judging:
1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

This passage not only means we may pass judgment in our hearts about the conduct of others, it demands we discipline any member of our church that so sins and refuses to repent. We are not allowed to leave it between him and God.

What we must not be a judge of is the motivation of people - only their actions are open to us, not their hearts.

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

The concept of free will is implicit in mankind. God has given us the ability to decide.

Whether or not the choice is moral or ethical ( ethics being applied morals) is individual as long as its not illegal. So the choice of course of action and the responsibility for it is yours and yours alone.

Belief in God and knowledge of the bible -gives us the ability to make informed decisions appropriate to our situation.

Just take sex. The bible tells us this has been an issue since the dawn of time - Soloman had direct dialogue with God on it. Jesus interupted a stoning on it. So if God recognised that it was a tricky issue -how come everyone else is so definate about it. Search me and Im a believer.

The ethical part is that you apply the morals as best you can to your life as these things are not at all clear cut.

So you decide - whats moral or ethical - on the basis that you believe it and you cannot lie to God. I imagine God has a mechanism to decide whether you were ethical.

Either way its not mans call to judge you on the choices - man can only judge on whether or not what you do is legal. The whole God issue is between you and God. As mankind cannot judge -it also cannot judge whether or not non-Christians will recieve mercy.

AS to my chocolate intake - its irrelevant to this - but it was a whole chocolate orange -minty - and decadent.

You are confusing (possibly deliberately) two issues here, the ability to choose to do something and the ability to decide if it is right or wrong to do it.

Again it is very difficult to gauge your actual position on this issue because you aren't actually answering my questions. A very simple question I've already asked is Can you, correctly, decide that God is wrong?

Can you decide that something God has instructed, through the Bible, is immoral is not actually immoral and God is wrong. Or put more bluntly, can God be wrong?

You skirt around the issue some what by talking about Solomon "discussing" this issue with God, but that isn't actually answer (unless you are suggesting Solomon some how convinced God he was in fact wrong, which I imagine isn't how the story went)

BrianCalgary

CDfm wrote: »

The concept of free will is implicit in mankind. God has given us the ability to decide.

Whether or not the choice is moral or ethical ( ethics being applied morals) is individual as long as its not illegal. So the choice of course of action and the responsibility for it is yours and yours alone.

Belief in God and knowledge of the bible -gives us the ability to make informed decisions appropriate to our situation.

Just take sex. The bible tells us this has been an issue since the dawn of time - Soloman had direct dialogue with God on it. Jesus interupted a stoning on it. So if God recognised that it was a tricky issue -how come everyone else is so definate about it. Search me and Im a believer.

The ethical part is that you apply the morals as best you can to your life as these things are not at all clear cut.

So you decide - whats moral or ethical - on the basis that you believe it and you cannot lie to God. I imagine God has a mechanism to decide whether you were ethical.

Either way its not mans call to judge you on the choices - man can only judge on whether or not what you do is legal. The whole God issue is between you and God. As mankind cannot judge -it also cannot judge whether or not non-Christians will recieve mercy.

AS to my chocolate intake - its irrelevant to this - but it was a whole chocolate orange -minty - and decadent.

CDFM a word of warning. Wicknight has been asking the same questions with the same objections for the last three years. He has been answered and rsponded to over and over again and again and just wants to mock 'free choice'.

My advice: don't waste your time.

niallk

My mama says Wicknight is the Devil.

BrianCalgary

niallk wrote: »

My mama says Wicknight is the Devil.

I disagree, wicky has a heart.

niallk

Oh he does?
Phew, because I thought he was the Devil there for a second.
Unless... No. It can't be... But...
Brian, you're not the Devil too, are you?

stevejazzx

Cantab. wrote: »

It's atheists, not athiests...

Why don't you take your little discussion over to the atheism forum and leave us Christian folk alone?
.

First case of harassment by bad spelling I've ever seen.

CDfm

Gambler wrote: »

Don't you mean to add according to John?

The veracity of the bible in recording events is a bit of topic- I am sure that was not your intention otherwise you would need to doubt almost every science textbook in the world.

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

You are confusing (possibly deliberately) two issues here, the ability to choose to do something and the ability to decide if it is right or wrong to do it.

Again it is very difficult to gauge your actual position on this issue because you aren't actually answering my questions. A very simple question I've already asked is Can you, correctly, decide that God is wrong?

Can you decide that something God has instructed, through the Bible, is immoral is not actually immoral and God is wrong. Or put more bluntly, can God be wrong?

You skirt around the issue some what by talking about Solomon "discussing" this issue with God, but that isn't actually answer (unless you are suggesting Solomon some how convinced God he was in fact wrong, which I imagine isn't how the story went)

In my religion we are encouraged to think and as you know Catholics read the bible using a Greco-Judeo reading that relies heavily on Greek philosophy- popularised by Philo of Alexandria.The philosophy of religion is complex.

Perhaps the Greatest Greek philosopher was Socrates - whose catchphrase was " I know I know nothing"- which means that the more knowledge you have the more you realise how ignorant you are. Socrates was notorious for his method of asking questions without giving answers himself - a bit like you in a way ( and I mean that as a compliment)

I take it you accept that you have free will and you must have as you are an atheist and you have the freedom to do that. Do you accept that as proof as you dont have any compulsion to believe.

So your question accepts God as a hypothesis- I accept that you are atheist..

Can God be wrong?- I dont think so - because its his ball and we are playing with it.

Can man be wrong - yes ,of course.

A believers morals and ethics will take into account their understanding of Gods word in the bible. So man gets to do the interpreting. As Socrates was very fond of saying "Gnothi seaton" (know yourself) and mans interpretation and application will be influenced by this. If you like, if a man or woman is dishonest in their application and this has a bearing on an outcome -well you can't lie to God as to your motives.

So unfortunately, Wicky,you are not off the hook in your quest. The application of morals and ethics are similar for both atheist and believer.

To quote a philosopher I once heard in Bray( and this could apply to any moral or ethical code) - " You can lead a horse to water - but I'll be damned if I will stick a straw up his a*@e and suck". In this context you are free to accept or reject the outcome and God leaves it up to you to make the decision.

So when I discuss Soloman et al I am giving you an example of how the sex question which you put great value on as a litmus test is not as simple as you would have it. The bible contains lots and lots of situations and events allegorical and literal for man to concider given a situation at any point in time.

A bit like a Socrates paradox really.

CDfm

niallk wrote: »

My mama says Wicknight is the Devil.

As an atheist that means Wicknight doesnt beleve in himself.

A Wicknight without self belief is scary.

:eek: say it aint so

Sweet Afton

CDfm wrote: »

Can God be wrong?- I dont think so - because its his ball and we are playing with it.

Indeed. But which "God"?

Shinji Ikari

Cantab. wrote: »

It's atheists, not athiests...

Why don't you take your little discussion over to the atheism forum and leave us Christian folk alone?

I believe atheism and secularism is rooted in evil. Not that the subscribers themselves are inherently evil, just that they're under the influence of sinister forces.

Define Evil? At one time slavery was not considered evil,according to the Old Testament anyway.

CDfm

Sweet Afton wrote: »

Indeed. But which "God"?

This thread started as an offshoot of a Catholic discussion.

So it should be the Catholic one - not cos He is the Coolest.

It should make things more accesable for atheists as it uses mainstream philosophy- much easier to discuss morals and ethics if its mainstream.

Fanny Cradock

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

Define Evil? At one time slavery was not considered evil,according to the Old Testament anyway.

According to the culture, you mean.

Goduznt Xzst

Can I ask the Christians, say an individual was walking along and a baby fell out of a pram, face down into a few centimeters of water. The man seen the baby struggling but continued to walk on anyway as he was late for a meeting, the baby subsequently died. The newspapers later reported this man as evil when the CCTV footage was released. Would they be correct?