M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

antoobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

So that explains it.

I went from Ballybrit Ind Est to parked in the Corrib Center in 11mins at 4:30pm

Couldn't understand how I got there so quick

Funny, I was sitting at one of the junctions onto the on SQR at about the same time at a red light (arrived just as it hit red, typical). The traffic as normal was backed up from Rahoon Rd back to the lidl junction (couldn't see past it). I think it was 3 cars that got across the junction past Westside shopping center (going straight on) before the lights turned green for me. Fortunately I was going the other way.

what_traffic

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

dubhthach

what_traffic wrote: »

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Mod

Relevance to the thread? I thought there was a Philosophy forum on here somewhere, you are bordering on trolling here, I won't be warning again.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Does not look like Light Rail has got any traction.

There is apparently a proposal in relation to public transport only.

http://connachttribune.ie/54551640/

Seven options are being considered – five are new route options for a ring road traversing the Corrib, one involves a public transport solution only, and the other option is upgrading the existing N6 through the city.

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

What effect did the secondary schools not being open have on the evening rush?

None that I could see.

Even if we assume, purely for the sake of discussion, that the secondary teachers' strike had zero impact on traffic east of the city, it is indisputably the case that (1) traffic was free-flowing west of the city on Thursday, and (2) there was significant congestion in the same general area, and on roads leading to it, when the secondary schools were back today.

To illustrate this general point, the photos below show the scene on Threadneedle Road, at the same hour (3.30pm, as the schools closed) on Thursday 22nd and Friday 23rd January. Yesterday not even roadworks were enough to cause delays. Today the cars were four-deep in places, with vehicles parked (legally and illegally) on both sides, and two-way traffic between them. This afternoon the traffic was backed up 600 metres from the Threadneedle/Kingston/Taylor's Hill junction, and that was just while I was there, which means that a substantial volume of traffic had already passed through, with more on the way afterwards. This situation will have been replicated around the other secondary schools in the city.





The significant reduction in traffic congestion on the west side was due solely to secondary schools being closed. Primary schools were still open, yet there were no hold-ups. A proportion of the school traffic shown above will have crossed town, since it is known that some students attending secondary school in Salthill travel from parts east.

The strike serves to conclusively demonstrate in a 48 hour period a phenomenon well known to occur during the summer, ie that traffic congestion is massively eased, with the exception of major traffic-generating events such as the Galway Races.

Any serious and genuine attempt to solve Galway's traffic congestion (and the endemic car dependence which causes it) must take account of the massive effect of school travel. In my opinion, this also points to what could be achieved with work travel, which apparently affects the east of the city to a greater extent.

A major effort to address car travel to school, university and work could be expected to achieve an impact on city-wide traffic congestion at least equivalent to that inadvertently created by the secondary teachers' strike.

Tedddy

Galway's going to always have traffic congestion problems if the County Council continue to plant permission for houses along every boreen in the county.

KevR

Seven options are being considered – five are new route options for a ring road traversing the Corrib, one involves a public transport solution only, and the other option is upgrading the existing N6 through the city.

I wonder what this would entail.

Some junctions upgraded to grade-separated junctions?? Extra lanes??

It's hard to see any major upgrades on the existing N6. Obviously space is very tight in many locations so there would be significant CPOs required. Not to mention the disruption during construction.

Aard

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Any serious and genuine attempt to solve Galway's traffic congestion (and the endemic car dependence which causes it) must take account of the massive effect of school travel. In my opinion, this also points to what could be achieved with work travel, which apparently affects the east of the city to a greater extent.

Unfortunately, the way Galway has been planned has lead to a situation whereby not only is it necessary to travel by car for many trips but that it is also more difficult to travel by other modes due to the layout of the suburbs. Many housing estates have exits only onto main roads, so trips "as the crow flies" might be short but the actual route to be taken is often circuitous. This has knock-on effects for every trip type -- shopping, school, work, college, leisure. Many local trips have to mingle with non-local traffic. The cumulative effect is terrible traffic for trips of any length. Solving the problem of making local trips easier/safer/shorter to make should be a starting point that could only have a positive effect on transport times/costs/emissions and won't necessitate a costly EIA (generally speaking).

spacetweek

antoobrien wrote: »

There is apparently a proposal in relation to public transport only.

I don't get it, the only viable way forward is a bypass *and* public transport improvements. Where's that option?

spacetweek

Who's up for heading to the public exhibitions and getting us some photos?

Iwannahurl

Aard wrote: »

Unfortunately, the way Galway has been planned has lead to a situation whereby not only is it necessary to travel by car for many trips but that it is also more difficult to travel by other modes due to the layout of the suburbs. Many housing estates have exits only onto main roads, so trips "as the crow flies" might be short but the actual route to be taken is often circuitous. This has knock-on effects for every trip type -- shopping, school, work, college, leisure. Many local trips have to mingle with non-local traffic. The cumulative effect is terrible traffic for trips of any length. Solving the problem of making local trips easier/safer/shorter to make should be a starting point that could only have a positive effect on transport times/costs/emissions and won't necessitate a costly EIA (generally speaking).

Yes and no.

The "planning" has been awful for decades, and the nonsense continues, but it remains the case that, even in localities where it is possible to travel by other means, most people take the car.

For example, using the CSO's Small Area Population Statistics I have found out that 85% of people in our neighbourhood over the age of 5 travel to school/work by car, yet in general we travel to the same destinations. I have made this point before: our children were not admitted to the local school, yet we have neighbours driving 800 metres there. Meanwhile our 3 km cycle to another school is through heavy traffic, which often blocks access to road crossings and footpaths. The City Council does not respond (ie it remains obdurately silent) to enquiries regarding the need for safe routes to school for children walking, cycling or taking the bus. This is the same Council which has for at least two decades insisted that a bypass is "the only solution" to the traffic problem.

You are right, of course, one part of the overall solution to the overall problem (which is car dependence) has to be dealing with the multitude of short trips.

Iwannahurl

spacetweek wrote: »

I don't get it, the only viable way forward is a bypass *and* public transport improvements. Where's that option?

How will a bypass ensure the viability of public transport?

LillySV

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Without revealing any personal details or other identifying features, can you quote some of the relevant text?

I'd be very interested to know how they are approaching this particular aspect of the "N6 Galway City Transport Project".

just that my house lies on one or more of the potential corridors...ive since found out it lies on three of the 6!! ill have to find out next wed in westwood ..info there from 2-8 i think(sorry forget exact times but think thats it)

veryangryman wrote: »

From wiki (i know not the best source)

In Ireland, CPOs became quite common due to the massive road upgrade programme under the National Development Plan. CPOs are also used for rail projects. If one objects to the issuing of a CPO, one may appeal to the High Court.[1] Compensation is available to ensure that the person is restored, as far as possible, to the same position that they were in before the land and property were compulsorily purchased, so that the person is left in the same financial position after the CPO as they were in before the process.
I
Compensation rights usually include the value of the property, costs of acquiring and moving to a new property, and sometimes additional payments. Costs of professional advice regarding compensation are usually reimbursed by the Authority, so that people affected by a compulsory purchase order can seek advice from a solicitor and a surveyor and expect to be reimbursed.



This would make me think the poster will be looked after. I guess the "Reject the first offer" advice would apply and of course get a decent solicitor.

well if i got looked after financially i wouldnt mind so much...i would never get an equivalent house with as much room and garden size in the city as i have at mo though which would be a balls...

lucernarian

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How will a bypass ensure the viability of public transport?

Is it a relevant question though?? Trucks, i.e. safety and out of town traffic. It probably won't ensure the viability of it unless there are situations that public transport is of a sufficient scale to cause traffic disruption to itself. I doubt that's the case in Galway. But there are other concerns involving HGV and tractor and general noisy or bulky vehicle routing away from all residential areas in Galway, which the Seamus Quirke Road does pass through in places. If only a partial or full bypass can actually deal with this, it need not be of a spec that caters for yet more cars. There is a need for public transport improvements *now* especially for schools and followed up with legal enforcement and this is irrespective of whether a bypass is built or not.

dloob

KevR wrote: »

I wonder what this would entail.

Some junctions upgraded to grade-separated junctions?? Extra lanes??

It's hard to see any major upgrades on the existing N6. Obviously space is very tight in many locations so there would be significant CPOs required. Not to mention the disruption during construction.

The city tribune had a bit on it.
It would involve building flyovers at the junctions and yes it was said to involve significant CPOs of both residential and commercial premises.

The other options now cross the river further south, several go through the Dangan playing fields.
One includes a tunnel under the river not far north of the existing bridge, it's the most southerly.
Another has the road starting in Briarhill and tunneling under the race course.
I'm not sure where that one is to cross the river.
There is also one which has the bridge near to the original location going through some of the Glenlo lands.
And there is one public transport only option.

There should be maps available this week.

Edit - just checked and maps are up http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/phase-2/public-consultation-number-2-display-graphics/

Iwannahurl

lucernarian wrote: »

Is it a relevant question though?? Trucks, i.e. safety and out of town traffic. It probably won't ensure the viability of it unless there are situations that public transport is of a sufficient scale to cause traffic disruption to itself. I doubt that's the case in Galway. But there are other concerns involving HGV and tractor and general noisy or bulky vehicle routing away from all residential areas in Galway, which the Seamus Quirke Road does pass through in places. If only a partial or full bypass can actually deal with this, it need not be of a spec that caters for yet more cars. There is a need for public transport improvements *now* especially for schools and followed up with legal enforcement and this is irrespective of whether a bypass is built or not.

The potential effects on public transport of a "bypass" are very relevant, which is why it's a pity that no bypass advocates are giving the matter due attention.

HGVs and tractors won't affect the numbers using public transport, but altering the behaviour of car commuters will.

You're absolutely right that public transport, especially for schools, must be improved now and should not have to wait for a "bypass". The Strategic Bus Study has been around since 2007. Many if not most of its recommendations are not dependent on a "bypass". How many have been implemented?

Or implemented properly? Take for example the Fr Griffin Road corridor, which reallocated space from cyclists to facilitate the flow of motorised traffic, and which failed to connect key pedestrian routes.

Padkir

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The potential effects on public transport of a "bypass" are very relevant, which is why it's a pity that no bypass advocates are giving the matter due attention.

HGVs and tractors won't affect the numbers using public transport, but altering the behaviour of car commuters will.

You're absolutely right that public transport, especially for schools, must be improved now and should not have to wait for a "bypass". The Strategic Bus Study has been around since 2007. Many if not most of its recommendations are not dependent on a "bypass". How many have been implemented?

Or implemented properly? Take for example the Fr Griffin Road corridor, which reallocated space from cyclists to facilitate the flow of motorised traffic, and which failed to connect key pedestrian routes.

You seem to be missing the point a few people are making though. You can't do certain things that you'd like to in Galway at the minute without causing total gridlock, e.g. adding extra cycle / bus lanes, etc. because there is simply too much traffic trying to get across the city. You can't hope to have a reliable bus network that people will use without these bus lanes and you can't encourage people to cycle more without adequate and safe cycle lanes.

Firstly, you need to take the traffic that has no need to be there out of the city and then you can work on improving public transport. It's not rocket science. Try take a lane of the Quin bridge now to designate as a bus lane (there needs to be a bus lane crossing the river somewhere) and see what happens to the traffic. Chaos, that is what.

You can't take people out of their cars when there is not a safe and reliable alternative. That is the catch 22 and that is why it's so difficult to solve.

You have a vendetta against cars, we all know that. But I don't think anyone can deny that an outer bypass would improve things immeasurably in Galway and would pave the way to make further improvements in the city centre, for all modes of transport.

lucernarian

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The potential effects on public transport of a "bypass" are very relevant, which is why it's a pity that no bypass advocates are giving the matter due attention.

HGVs and tractors won't affect the numbers using public transport, but altering the behaviour of car commuters will.

You're absolutely right that public transport, especially for schools, must be improved now and should not have to wait for a "bypass". The Strategic Bus Study has been around since 2007. Many if not most of its recommendations are not dependent on a "bypass". How many have been implemented?

Or implemented properly? Take for example the Fr Griffin Road corridor, which reallocated space from cyclists to facilitate the flow of motorised traffic, and which failed to connect key pedestrian routes.

Sorry if I didn't make my previous post clear. I'll put a clue from my last post in bold for you. But there are other concerns involving HGV and tractor and general noisy or bulky vehicle routing away from all residential areas in Galway, which the Seamus Quirke Road does pass through in places. In advocating for or against the bypass, I'm considering the safety and logistical impact of trucks currently (i.e. their safety) and also the extent of out of town traffic. Perhaps you could do the same when replying? I've asked several times about this now, it's becoming untenable for you to not discuss this in the context of this thread.

padikir wrote:

You seem to be missing the point a few people are making though. You can't do certain things that you'd like to in Galway at the minute without causing total gridlock, e.g. adding extra cycle / bus lanes, etc. because there is simply too much traffic trying to get across the city. You can't hope to have a reliable bus network that people will use without these bus lanes and you can't encourage people to cycle more without adequate and safe cycle lanes.

Firstly, you need to take the traffic that has no need to be there out of the city and then you can work on improving public transport. It's not rocket science. Try take a lane of the Quin bridge now to designate as a bus lane (there needs to be a bus lane crossing the river somewhere) and see what happens to the traffic. Chaos, that is what.

You can't take people out of their cars when there is not a safe and reliable alternative. That is the catch 22 and that is why it's so difficult to solve.

You have a vendetta against cars, we all know that. But I don't think anyone can deny that an outer bypass would improve things immeasurably in Galway and would pave the way to make further improvements in the city centre, for all modes of transport.

There seems to be some circular logic here. You have said that adding bus lanes woud cause gridlock. They would cause total motorized private traffic gridlock. The buses would move freely for the most part. I don't understand this "firstly" thing really, as you seem to be presuming people wouldn't or shouldn't consider fucking over car users when there's a strong argument to be made that they've had a pretty good bender over the years and there has to be a time to say the party's over for driving their overweight brats to school. Public Transport needs much more than bus lanes. It needs shelters, value for money tickets, ****more buses and drivers**** and using good locations for Park and Ride facilities, again with frequent buses and yes with a bus lane too. Why not have Galwegians drowning in their own cars? Too many people out there still afraid to even consider being seen in a bus.

Because there is more to it than that.

There are to me some real safety concerns with the Seamus Quirke Road and the currently-obligatory use of it by trucks and tractors and so on and furthermore there are traffic of all types making journeys unconnected with Galway City who are also hemmed into this glorified inner relief road. Even for strategic reasons, there should be more river crossings in Galway and certainly an alternative crossing that can safely handle HGVs etc. I hope this study can look at some real options.

Iwannahurl

Padkir wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point a few people are making though. You can't do certain things that you'd like to in Galway at the minute without causing total gridlock, e.g. adding extra cycle / bus lanes, etc. because there is simply too much traffic trying to get across the city. You can't hope to have a reliable bus network that people will use without these bus lanes and you can't encourage people to cycle more without adequate and safe cycle lanes.

Firstly, you need to take the traffic that has no need to be there out of the city and then you can work on improving public transport. It's not rocket science. Try take a lane of the Quin bridge now to designate as a bus lane (there needs to be a bus lane crossing the river somewhere) and see what happens to the traffic. Chaos, that is what.

You can't take people out of their cars when there is not a safe and reliable alternative. That is the catch 22 and that is why it's so difficult to solve.

You have a vendetta against cars, we all know that. But I don't think anyone can deny that an outer bypass would improve things immeasurably in Galway and would pave the way to make further improvements in the city centre, for all modes of transport.

We were told that the SQR cycle/bus lanes would cause gridlock. Where is it? We still have motorists on the SQR complaining that "empty" buses are passing them by as they sit in their cars. Why?

A "cycleway" is being constructed on Threadneedle Road. What is causing the traffic congestion on that road, the roadworks or the absurd level of car dependence?

And speaking of Catch 22s, who is going to use the cycle lanes and buses when "80%" of car users are taken out of The Auld Triangle and when cross-town commuters are presented with supposedly clear routes to school and work? I have asked this question more than once, and nobody has answered it yet.

The "vendetta against cars" accusation is the usual nonsense that has been spouted from the start of this and other similar discussions, we all know that. I'm a motorist -- it's just that our car, taxed and insured, stays in the driveway >95% of the time because we choose to cycle to work and school rather than contribute to the traffic congestion that motorists are complaining about all the time. Motorists do not get stuck in traffic, they are traffic...

Carawaystick

It should be pointed out that the nta refused a bus company run 15 mins services on a major route in Galway, only licensing them for 30 mins headway.

That kind of anti-public-transit work isn't from Galway

Iwannahurl

Re SQR buses, I'm not privy to the details but my understanding is that a particular service was licensed only for a 30-minute headway because there was no guarantee from the operator that a 15-minute frequency would be sustained.

In any case, my understanding is that buses are running every 15 minutes on the SQR, or perhaps more frequently, because there are now two (perhaps three?) routes that go through that part of the city. I'm open to correction on that point, by the way. Unfortunately, some people regard the distance on foot between the different bus routes as being too long for practical purposes, which effectively reduces the frequency of the bus services available to local residents.

It's also worth noting that there was a 12% increase in Bus Eireann passenger numbers on Galway City services in 2014.

Limerick74

Any feedback from public consultation event this afternoon?

serfboard

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's also worth noting that there was a 12% increase in Bus Eireann passenger numbers on Galway City services in 2014.

God, that article that you linked to is crap. A 12% increase - but from what to what? That's the first thing I'd expect to read in an article like that, but no sign of it anywhere.

dloob wrote: »

The city tribune had a bit on it.
It would involve building flyovers at the junctions and yes it was said to involve significant CPOs of both residential and commercial premises.

The other options now cross the river further south, several go through the Dangan playing fields.
One includes a tunnel under the river not far north of the existing bridge, it's the most southerly.
Another has the road starting in Briarhill and tunneling under the race course.
I'm not sure where that one is to cross the river.
There is also one which has the bridge near to the original location going through some of the Glenlo lands.
And there is one public transport only option.

There should be maps available this week.

Edit - just checked and maps are up http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/phase-2/public-consultation-number-2-display-graphics/

There was a discussion about this on Galway Bay FM this morning as well.

Listening to the discussion, the cynic in me thinks that the whole "route options" exercise is a charade. There are five options given, but four of them are ridiculously bad, politically unacceptable or expensive, that we will only be left with one "option" in the end - which is the one they want to build anyway.

These new routes involve doing things like tunnelling under Ballybrit racecourse, or the playing fields in Dangan, that will drive up the cost so much as to be prohibitive.

antoobrien

serfboard wrote: »

Listening to the discussion, the cynic in me thinks that the whole "route options" exercise is a charade. There are five options given, but four of them are ridiculously bad, politically unacceptable or expensive, that we will only be left with one "option" in the end - which is the one they want to build anyway.

I really don't get this attitude. There were major criticisms of the previous project in that it didn't either consider or ruled out tunnels and/or routes closer to the city. Now when they do just what they were asked to do (and a far wider range of options than was produced in 2002) it's just a cynical ploy to get the route "they want to build anyway".

There's one thing I can tell you, they listened to what was said to them in the first consultation because I heard 4/5 people ask the reps variations of why were the junctions on the previous planned route so far out the Moycullen & Headford roads and why couldn't the be closer to the town, where they'd be of use.

But now it appears that they are being criticized for doing what they were asked to do.

No wonder it's practically impossible to get anything done in this country.

Benbecul97

What is the "preferred" route of the seven available?
How is the final route decided upon - Least cost, Least CPOs, Least objections?

antoobrien

Benbecul97 wrote: »

What is the "preferred" route of the seven available?
How is the final route decided upon - Least cost, Least CPOs, Least objections?

There is none yet, that's what the public consultation is about. As for the decision, I'll ask that question when I go to the consultation.

Benbecul97

I understand that. Consultants, Councillors etc must have a "preferred" route of the seven available, even at this stage.

cgcsb

It's a sad indication of how poorly the expansion of Galway City was planned(not planned) and how poor public transport provision is when a City of 75,000 wants/needs a €300,000,000 motorway to get from one end of the City to the other. We pay for the ignorance of those that went before us I suppose.

antoobrien

Benbecul97 wrote: »

I understand that. Consultants, Councillors etc must have a "preferred" route of the seven available, even at this stage.

If they do they're not saying.

antoobrien

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a sad indication of how poorly the expansion of Galway City was planned(not planned) and how poor public transport provision is when a City of 75,000 wants/needs a €300,000,000 motorway to get from one end of the City to the other. We pay for the ignorance of those that went before us I suppose.

No, it's sad that a proper bypass wasn't built twenty years ago when it could have done some good, instead of the mess that they did build.