M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

@marno21

On a side note, can the thread titled be updated to M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning quashed] @marno21

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758214#Comment_119758214

Ya agree - already naturally happening with Cross Street been closed, and will continue once Newtownsmith is reconfigured.

It has lowest vehicular traffic numbers crossing right now today by a good bit in comparison to the other two City Centre bridges.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758610#Comment_119758610

That would be inaccurate.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758421#Comment_119758421

You're unhinged.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758773#Comment_119758773

Not according to ABP 🤷‍♂️

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758776#Comment_119758776

You were the one saying that Galway needed a world class public transport network. This is how you get one.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758391#Comment_119758391

LOL we don't even have a bypass / ring road of the only city in the region and you're using the Netherlands as an example to prove Galway doesn't need this road cause they have more bikes in the Netherlands.

#facepalm

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758421#Comment_119758421

Dear DaCor

Can you please provide one "comparable" example to Galway city? Please note the pictures in my previous comment before providing the aforementioned example.

Kind regards,

brianc89

P.S. I agree we should do all the things you mentioned providing we are realistic about the knock-on impacts and acknowledge the need for a ring road of the city.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759237#Comment_119759237

Can you please provide one "comparable" example to Galway city? Please note the pictures in my previous comment before providing the aforementioned example.

Examples have been provided many, many times in this thread and the Galway Traffic thread on the Galway board. By all means have a read through. I'm not inclined to get into the weeds of comparing this place versus that place as all it leads to is "yeah but Galway is different because X, Y, or Z" when it really isn't. It becomes a tiresome rehashing of the same old, same old, so again, by all means, pull up that information from either of the threads mentioned and do your own comparison, but no, I won't be participating in that particular ring-a-rosy again. I've been down that road a silly amount of times at this stage

Sam Russell

Usual vested interests (or perceived vested interests) plugging away.

If you look at the history of Grafton Street in Dublin, you will find it has gone from jammed two way traffic, to jammed one way traffic, to traffic free pedestrian space full of people enjoying the freedom this gives. On the business side, the rents of properties are huge - and no vacant shops - well few temporally waiting new tenants and refurb.

Cars kill city businesses. The bypass, as designed, will have no effect on the car traffic in Galway City without measures to limit them, and those measures could be implemented now. The bypass will not be open for at least a decade.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759220#Comment_119759220

Are you seriously trying to compare Rotterdam with a population of over 1m with Galway? That’s slightly deluded.

Have a look at the city of Zoetermer. It’s about 20% larger than Galway, has twice the population density, has no ring road although it is bypassed by a motorway. It has a light rail line with 13 stops, 3 stops on the IC mainline and decent pedestrian and cycle infrastructure. You could argue that is has a motorway bypass but that’s not what is being proposed for Galway.

And please don’t try to pretend that the GCRR is a bypass or that a motorway to the west of Galway is required.

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1582291522703134722?s=20&t=r6bvTfC4AwTY2RzuO2QA7w

Car park owner says cars are great and we need more roads

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759626#Comment_119759626

Well not exactly, CEO and President of Chamber are different people.

CEO is former AIB banker, President is the Group Finance Director for the Headspace Group. A property managment Group who do have a number of car parks in the City for sure. (https://www.head-space.ie/ --> https://citypark.ie/)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759670#Comment_119759670

Fair point

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759514#Comment_119759514

Thanks for the example. It's a decent example. I'm not deluded. Other people keep mentioning Amsterdam or Copenhagen, which are deluded comparisons.

Galway is a sprawling city. It's not compact at all and doesn't have a decent baseline road infrastructure to build on.

I've said it before that the GCRR needs to remove a few junctions. The solution is not abandoning the project entirely. A bypass is desperately needed.

Robbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758786#Comment_119758786

They've conceded in correspondence and it was briefly mentioned, the consent order hasn't been made yet. While nothing surprises me with ABP, they can't grant the primary relief sought (certiorari) and no such order has been made by the High Court at this point. Friends of the Irish Environment CLG also sought declaratory relief so god knows where that particular issue will land.

It's back in for mention on the 7th of November so, while the matter is for all practical purposes dead, that'll probably be the official date of death. And then to costs...

marno21

This thread is starting to give me serious ire at this point. It's now turned into a battlefield between two factions.

1. Those who believe Galway needs some sort of road based solution to take traffic out of the city (some favour the bypass, some favour an alternative solution) who are agreed that the current N6 is not sufficient, but in tandem with this road based solution there needs to be a new approach to traffic, public transport priority and active travel in the city centre.
2. The "bikes and buses are everything" brigade who happily shout for the death of the ring road.

I am firmly in camp 1, I believe the M6 Ring Road should be built as designed. However, I also share all the ambitions of camp 2 wrt PT and active travel with the exception of the anti-road and anti-car desires.

Galway is a small city. It has seen 40+ years of complete car dependent development and is a textbook example of how not to grow a city. Regardless, these patterns are now developed and undoing them is wishful thinking and not worth the level of effort required to do so. Galway should primarily be developed into the future in a more sustainable manner, but this won't undo the past. The M6 is required to support the CURRENT transport requirements for Galway, let alone the future ones.

One idea for a halfway house here would be a toll on the new M6, a reallocation of roadspace on the existing N6 and bus gates in the city centre to remove through traffic, and possibly congestion charging on top of that on the N6 QCB. Ringfence funds for active transport development/PT projects or use it towards the cost of the new M6. This would suit everyone, no through traffic in the CC (or make it extremely difficult for through traffic), bus priority on the existing N6, and the new M6 there for cars with a financial penalty for using it.

Then zone land on brownfield sites in the city centre along transport corridors to be used for dense development of residential and commercial property into the future, and don't make the same mistake of building low density sprawled estates on one side of the river and suburban business parks for employment on the far side of the river.

The current thinking of bike lanes and reducing parking is not going to work, it's just going to annoy people and make them cynical and have them giving out about the greenies all the time to the point that climate action becomes a dirty phrase and real solutions then get caught in the crossfire.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759237#Comment_119759237

This is a complete red herring. How about you provide one comparable example of a "city" of <100,000 people with a motorway standard bypass with multiple tunnels and a large bridge to serve a population of c.30,000 on one side.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759727#Comment_119759727

But President has advocated for Ring Road in PR pieces from Chamber in the local papers - but no surprise there

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759930#Comment_119759930

The problem is you say a bypass is "badly needed" - yet Galways traffic issues is because Galway IS the destination. The GCRR will not fix that.

serfboard

I think everyone can acknowledge that, even if this iteration of the Ring Road gets the go-ahead, it will be at least 5-10 years before it's built.

In the meantime we should be cracking on with some of the Bus Connects programme. In particular, I'm mystified why the easiest win of all - the Dublin Road route - is not being progressed. I see that the roundabout at the Galway Clinic is being removed, but God Almighty, there is lots more work to be done on the route than just that. Maybe it's awaiting CPOs? Or have they been issued?

Chris_5339762

I'm firmly in the "build a bypass" camp, although I think the previous iteration was better than this mild-bodge. To me, it has to be part of an overall solution, not just building it and doing nothing, not just not-building-it and reallocate roadspace. It needs to be all of the above.

All that said, Galway council or chamber or whatever they are, are absolutely hopeless beyond words. Dublin is getting its Busconnects, and myriad cycle lanes (good or bad in terms of design), Cork is trying to get its Busconnects (despite a strong pushback from the public) and a goodly few cycles lanes.

Galway can seem to get neither and I just don't get it. I really don't get why the council won't propose a masterplan. I don't think that'll either "get" the bypass or not. Just plan it.

what_traffic

CPO's not issued - it has just been sent to ABP - so you can make a submission on it

https://www.galwaycity.ie/busconnects-galway-cross-city-link

"

Hard copy documents can be viewed in City Hall, from 9.00am to 4.00pm, Monday to Friday, from Wednesday 21st September to Friday 18th November 2022.

Submissions/observations can also be made on the An Bord Pleanála website at the following address:  https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/observations 

"

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119759978#Comment_119759978

I'm in the "Whatever works to improve commute times, access and the health and well being of the people that travel in and around Galway city" camp - which should really be all of us. And I believe everyone is off that mindset.

At this point the new road, is at least a decade and 1.2 billion euros away. Needless to say I dont think it will every happen.

As such you have to work within that reality.

-Public transport in and around the city should be made completely free with a move to electric busses etc (which is happening all the time) being phased in.

-Areas such as Oranmore -think there is a city bus service already there, Claregalway, Moycullen, Athenry, Bearna should have a regular City bus timetable with regular services as you see in the city coupled with options for park and rides in or around/between these towns and the city - made as cheap as possible for people to use.

-Encentiveise or assist employers implement WFH where appropriate, stagger starting times.

That's as much as I can think of in the very short term that would, in my opinion move in the right direction while further work is done on getting another bridge or two over the river.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760685#Comment_119760685

Regarding the P&R's for Galway City, the proposals were finally (after nearly 20 years of a wait) presented to the council in the last week for P&R's around Galway. I went through the associated presentation from the council and the NTA documents and did a post on it, linked below, where I look at it in detail.

You're not going to like it, its literally more of the same from GCC, under ambitious, insufficient, designed to fail etc etc

Anyway, check out the write up I did if you wish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758155#Comment_119758155

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760106#Comment_119760106

Let's be honest with each other, no example exists that backs up either of our arguments. Road infrastructure induces demand for cars, BUT no city on the planet exists that has decent public transport AND lacks a basic bypass.

Galway is already a sprawled city and it rains 230days per year versus 100-130days in average European cities including Dublin.

The population of county Galway is 280k. Galway city is at the heart of the county and you CAN'T cross side to the other without going into the heart of the city or sitting on a bridge in traffic. It's a joke.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119760224#Comment_119760224

The solution to Galway city being choked with cars is banning cars from 3x inner city bridges.

Not even @[Deleted User] is suggesting removing car access to the Docks which is MIND BOGGLING. The short sightedness of that is astounding.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761055#Comment_119761055

I support your plans for further private car access restrictions in Galway City, please elaborate further and send details on to the council too

But to your point, the council can't remove access to the dock road as they don't own the dock road, the Galway Port Company do. Its why its being left with access and likely will always retain that access. That may change in time as there is the potential for the GPC to be swallowed by GCC thereby transferring ownership of the road to the council. If that happens, well, all bets are off in that event

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761037#Comment_119761037

Which goes back to the point that the quickest win is to encourage as many people who drive into the centre to use public transport.

Nobody is forcing people to cycle, walk or use a bus anywhere around Galway. What should be done is to make it a viable option by making the choice to use a car more difficult.

Once traffic reduces (and it would) then that leaves more room for those crossing the city and any need for a bypass (and actual bypass) can be done which would hold more favour amongst the public.

However, the councils and TII are still trying to follow the tried and tested approach of building a road, doing sweet FA else and wondering why traffic hasn't improved. Pissing away €1.5Bn for something that is more likely to make things worse overall is not a sensible approach.

Bad planning in the past is not a reason to just not bother trying approaches that have worked in other cities. Following an approach that we know won't work is not the way to go.

brianc89

Sorry @[Deleted User] I don't mean to attack you.

I'm just firmly of the belief that the RR (improved version maybe) will ultimately benefit the city through enhanced PT & AT.

I firmly acknowledge P&R is designed to fail and the lack of proper bus service (every 20mins minimum) to the likes of Bearna is beyond a joke.