M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143875#Comment_119143875

When it comes to judicial reviews, it's often taken because someone or some resident groups all of a sudden have a newfound love for snails, or bats or some other species they don't give two **** about in reality.

It reminds me of the Warren Buffet quote.

"If a cop follows you for 500 miles, you are going to get a ticket"

People wonder why it takes so long to get stuff done in this country, it's because we have wrapped ourselves in complex and poorly understood procedures, processes and red tape, which actually causes more harm than good.

See the housing crisis as an example.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143902#Comment_119143902

A good example there. We all know why they didn't want the road to be built there, so decided to go down the 'environmental' road to try and see if they could stop the road on a technicality.

Again, trying to prisoners to the perfect.

serfboard

IIRC, one of the reason the original Outer Bypass road didn't get built was because of the potential damage to limestone paving in Menlo.

Funnily enough, no-one was concerned about limestone paving when planning permission was being given for houses to be built on it ...

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143661#Comment_119143661

I don't agree with this at all. Most people when opposing a project are opposed to the entire project, not just some small element that needs a little tweak. For large projects here, particularly infrastructure, there are multiple public consultations and plenty of opportunity for members of the public to engage. The problem is that for many, unless everything is changed based on their suggestions, they complain about lack of engagement, not being listened to, etc. They of course ignore that such projects are designed based on a broad spectrum of considerations, not the narrow concerns of each individual. For people who go to the cost/effort of a JR, they aren't doing that to get some small changes, they are doing it to kill the project.

The M28 saga is a good example of people expecting everything to be designed around their concerns while at the same time they themselves ignored even the most basic practicalities in designing the road (i.e. thinking that some mad rerouting adding huge cost and environmental damage plus resulting in longer journey times and dumping all traffic in an unsuitable location was reasonable once the road was further from them).

brianc89

Can we rename this post to 'Philosophical debate about Ireland's planning laws'?

I jest! Just noticed 4.5k replies on this post. It really has become a basket case example of planning issues in this country.

Any update on timelines? What's currently happening and when can we expect some meaningful project update?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147686#Comment_119147686

In fairness, the latest info was posted in post #8,260 which also prompted the current discussion.

The cost range for this 17km bit of road is now officially acknowledged as potentially costing up to 1 billion

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/befe7-prospects-2022-irelands-major-infrastructure-project-pipeline/

It'll be a farce if this proceeds at that level of cost

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421010#Comment_119421010

Yeah it’s put into an arbitrary cost band of between €500m-1bn. It could just as easily cost €501m by your logic.

By the time it finishes it’s charade in the High Court some of the materials costs which are adding to the cost of this project might be relieved some bit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421183#Comment_119421183

Its been reported as 600, 650, 650+++, all the way up to 1 billion

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40747851.html

My point was this is the first time any govt document has acknowledged a cost beyond the 500-600 estimates, which has been the line all the way along

Would love to see an update CBA for that level of cost. My guess is it would be shot to sh!te

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421278#Comment_119421278

There was actually a lengthy debate about this particular issue in front of the Oireachtas Transport Committee re: the M20. The M20 is down in DPER documents as costing “€1-3bn”. Most reasonable estimates would have it at close to €1bn. Eamon Ryan took this to mean upto €3bn to fuel his anti roads agenda These are arbitrary cost bands and to be honest someone would be lying if they told you how much this project (the M6) will actually end up costing. Most research to date seems to agree that it’ll have a positive economic return regardless of the price tag n

CatInABox

Isn't there some kind of legal difference if this tips over a billion? It gets considered as a megaproject, with more governmental sign offs required?

Outside of that, the recently agreed emissions target for the transport sector must put a question mark over this. A road that is already acknowledged as increasing emissions, while the transport sector has to somehow come up with a 50% reduction? At the very least, I could see this being put on the longest finger possible, if not outright cancelled.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421348#Comment_119421348

One can hope

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421325#Comment_119421325

What research is that? Consultant modelling report points to a long term worsening of congestion and emissions. Combining it with sustainable transport projects was what the consultant used to make it seem like a worthwhile project.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421325#Comment_119421325

Considering there is no real time frame for when this might start work and with inflation the way it is, how can “most estimates” be so sure of the price? Maybe those estimates are wrong and the people making them are cherry-picking to suit their agenda, just like you think ER is?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421348#Comment_119421348

Yep. Four words.. Not going to happen.

The M6 ring road for Galway is likely to be another 8-10 years all going well and costs are likely to be close to 1 billion by the time its all said and done according to Grealish based on a letter he's received from TII

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/131569/35m-spent-and-still-no-city-ring-road-in-sight-grealish

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621674#Comment_119621674

Deputy Grealish is correct - but its not clear is it just his opinion or if its based on the statement from TII’s Head of Regulatory and Administration, Michael Kennedy?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622245#Comment_119622245

The way I understand it, the letter said last cost estimate was 2016, at 600 million. Based on the way things have gone since, and looking at it being another decade, its his estimate of 1 billion, not TII.

To be honest I would say he's not far off

Bobeagleburger

8-10 years probably means 15. There'll be a recession in there at some point which could grind it to a halt.

Ready by 2040 perhaps...

Chris_5339762

Building it originally and putting the price difference (about 400 million) into public transport and public realm improvements... would that have kept everyone happy?

14 years since I posted this thread with 153 pages of discussion and still not a sod turned. I'm for the bypass and always have been, but regardless of what side of the coin you're on, 14 years with absolutely nothing happening in terms of public transport or a bypass is damning for the government and for Galway council.

One thing is certain, by the time that bypass opens( if it ever does) most of the people who were posting near the start of this thread will have retired and won't enjoy the benefits of the faster commute promised.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624855#Comment_119624855

Commute into the city? But it's meant to be a bypass!

Yes, but with the through traffic taken away, the commuters will have a clearer road to use.

I'm sure this has been done to death by now.

For many of us, it won't happen during our working lives.

Seth Brundle

For many of us, it won't happen during our working lives.

Nor should it. Galway's transport policies follow the non-sustainable car centric approach that were now realising is wrong on so many levels. People need choices to travel but this road would simply reinforce the need (or want!) to drive into the city despite it supposedly being a bypass.

It would be pissing money against a wall on infrastructure that they know would not solve Galway's problems.

hans aus dtschl

Is it possible that the mindset is that this road will solve the East-West transport problem in Galway and that nothing else is worth trying?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625076#Comment_119625076

Not sure how you could have missed this but the modelling report shows only about 5% of traffic bypassing the city.

cgcsb

When the cross city link is built and traffic plummets, I wonder will bypass advocates cease.

KrisW1001

Nothing else will be as cheap. It seems odd to call a €600m ~ €1bn project “cheap” but that’s what it is: It’s a fire and forget attempt to fix the results of decades of piss-poor spatial planning.

What will make Galway liveable is a huge investment in public transport, and a ring-road to relieve the through-routes (but not one of this enormous scale). Because of the density of Galway city itself, that public transport will need to include some form of light-rail, which is not only not going to be cheap, but will also have an ongoing running cost. It’s that ongoing cost that scares the local government: a road is a big payment up-front, and a low maintenance cost every 4-5 years or so; public transport on the other hand means ongoing operational expenditure: not good when you’re beholden to central government for every penny you spend.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625259#Comment_119625259

The 'through routes' in Galway aren't through routes for any significant amount of vehicles though. There are no significant settlements or industrial activity west of the urban area.

KrisW1001

There may not be any significant settlements, but there is a large population immediately west of the urban area. This is part of the big problem with Galway: from the city to Ros a Mhíl there’s a super-low-density sprawl of one-off houses, with no centre - that means no way to do anything except private car. A lot of these people work in and around Galway City and they currently have no option but to drive. The solution is public transport with park-and-ride, but it's a hard sell.

But when I said “through routes” I was referring to traffic between M6 and N83-N84 (and maybe N56 too) which is currently dragged along the current N6. There does need to be an orbital or some kind of relief road here for traffic that has no business in Galway, and I think that’s what this project started as. But then it grew bigger and bigger in scope until we got to where we are now.