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The next generation "NCF" Mobile phones will eliminate global cash.

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    #62
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Yes.

    A murder was caught and convicted when he foolishly tried to use the Oyster card from his victim the following day.


    Thats an utter distortion of the facts. Forensics found blood belonging to to Tom on the trainers of one of the thugs, Press cutting about the murder, and Tom's mobile were also found in the house of another person involved in the crime.

    The Oyster Card usage was used to help track the two. They were both captured on CCTV committing the stabbing.

    The events of this case are incredibly vivid to any Londoner who takes the underground.
    Lesson learned, if you ever find an Oyster card don't ever use it because you dont know the history of the card.

    The heavily suggested implication from your post is that these people were innocent, and stitched up by Oyster card usage. Thats rubbish. They're guilty as sin, they even admitted the crime.


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    #63
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Diogenes wrote: »
    Thats an utter distortion of the facts. Forensics found blood belonging to to Tom on the trainers of one of the thugs, Press cutting about the murder, and Tom's mobile were also found in the house of another person involved in the crime.

    The Oyster Card usage was used to help track the two. They were both captured on CCTV committing the stabbing. .
    You obviously did not read the lnk properly: An assailant was caught attempting to use Mr Rhys Pryce's Oyster card the following day".

    Obviously when Toms registered Oysterd went missing Police requested TFL to keep tabs on it. When someone tries to use a blocked card the attendant will take it from them and run a profile to see why it is blocked.
    Diogenes wrote: »
    The heavily suggested implication from your post is that these people were innocent, and stitched up by Oyster card usage. Thats rubbish. They're guilty as sin, they even admitted the crime.
    I never said or implied that anyone was innocent. l simply was giving KM an example of how an Oystercard data can be used.

    And just like the registered oyster card NFC phones will also leave dirty digital steak behind them for two years under "anti terrorism" data retention laws. :rolleyes:


    If the authoities wanted to they could request GSM cell site coordinate from service providers to pinpoint daily private person to person financial transactions :eek:


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    #64
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    It seems to me that this guy was convicted of murder, not of using someone else's Oyster Card.

    He was apprehended as a result of using plastic, after the authorities had a reason to look for usage of that plastic....something which isn't entirely dissimilar to how people would be apprehended for using Credit Cards which have been reported as stolen, or, indeed, could be traced by mobile phone usage.

    In other words...this new evil seems to be nothing different to the old evil.


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    #65
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    You obviously did not read the lnk properly: An assailant was caught attempting to use Mr Rhys Pryce's Oyster card the following day".

    Obviously when Toms registered Oysterd went missing Police requested TFL to keep tabs on it. When someone tries to use a blocked card the attendant will take it from them and run a profile to see why it is blocked.

    I'm sorry thats absurd pedantry.
    I never said or implied that anyone was innocent. l simply was giving KM an example of how an Oystercard data can be used.

    To catch the brutal murderers of two men who killed a man over a phone and an Oyster card! Outrageous. Next you'll be complaining about police using CCTV to arrest people speeding near schools!
    And just like the registered oyster card NFC phones will also leave dirty digital steak behind them for two years under "anti terrorism" data retention laws. :rolleyes:

    RtdH theres no evidence of this. Nothing. And as mentioned hundreds of thousands of tourists/travellers come through London every day using the public transport system. Any kind of tracking system can be abused once this factor is considered in.
    If the authoities wanted to they could request GSM cell site coordinate from service providers to pinpoint daily private person to person financial transactions :eek:

    A Plan flawed by the fact that tube stations are underground.

    This is hysterical nonsense.


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    #66
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Yes.

    A murder was caught and convicted when he foolishly tried to use the Oyster card from his victim the following day.

    Lesson learned, if you ever find an Oyster card don't ever use it because you dont know the history of the card.
    He's wasn't convicted solely on the oyster card data was he?
    The police where monitoring the card after a murder.

    What you're suggesting is that the authorities would use this data to falsely convict people.

    All you've done so far is list the conveniences offered by such electronic systems as well as point out a great unintended benefit.

    What you have failed to do is show how such a system would be a bad thing.
    All you've done is make vague suggestions that some shadowy conspiracy might look at this data (for, as far as I can tell, ****s and giggles.)

    So Rdth can you actually show one example how one of these systems are bad?
    Or are you gonna stick to the usual vagueness and scaremongering.

    Seriously though it would seem that by purposely avoiding these systems, the non existent overlords exercise far more control over you.


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    #67
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »

    So Rdth can you actually show one example how one of these systems are bad?
    ELECTRONIC SMART CARDS TRACK PEOPLE
    Diogenes wrote: »
    Next you'll be complaining about police using CCTV to arrest people speeding near schools!
    Depending on the specific type of camera used and whether the system is left on 24/7 365.


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    #68
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    ELECTRONIC SMART CARDS TRACK PEOPLE

    And?
    So what exactly?

    It's already been show to you that you can have multiple cards under the same name and for different addresses so it's not the most accurate tracking method ever.

    And why exactly would the evil police bother to look at your or my records unless they had a reason to?

    Can you show a single person actually being wrongfully prosecuted because of this technology or not?


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    #69
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    It's already been show to you that you can have multiple cards under the same name and for different addresses so it's not the most accurate tracking method ever.
    Edited post: It's already been show to you that you can have multiple cards under the same name and for different addresses so it's not the most accurate tracking method yet.

    And Reason, because the system has not been fully implimented.


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    #70
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

    And Reason, because it has not been fully implimented.

    Ok let's say your completely unsupported idea that the oyster card store your exact movements on buses precisely is right.

    So what?
    What's so bad about that exactly?

    And again I ask: Can you show a single person actually being wrongfully prosecuted because of this technology or not?


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    #71
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    Can you show a single person actually being wrongfully prosecuted because of this technology or not?
    No and we may not hear of that many people being wrongly prosecuted through this wonderful technology for the simple reason that it becoming is so accurate and fool proof.

    In fact so fool proof that when you put it all together it will make an excellent tool for a faschist Orwellian super state.

    Hitler would have given his right arm for NFC technology, smart cards, RFID, Email and text message data retention. It would have made the job a piece of cake to track down subversives, Jews, those with disabilities, and Gypsies.


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    #72
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    No and we may not hear of that many people being wrongly prosecuted through this wonderful technology for the simple reason that it becoming is so accurate and fool proof.
    So then what's the problem?
    Chances are this will not only help catch actual criminals it could be used to help a defendant in a trial.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    In fact so fool proof that when you put it all together it will make an excellent tool for a faschist Orwellian super state.
    That article has nothing what so ever to the topic at hand.
    And like the other nonsense you're claim this thing is not been introduced any time soon, let alone usable.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Hitler would have given his right arm for NFC technology, smart cards, RFID, Email and text message data retention. It would have made the job a piece of cake to track down subversives, Jews, those with disabilities, and Gypsies.
    Yes so you keep saying.
    But you're failing consistently to show that any of the information gathered can ever be used against an innocent person.

    But hey when your claims lack sense and evidence you might as well start throwing in Orwell and Hitler.


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    #73
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    So then what's the problem?
    Chances are this will not only help catch actual criminals it could be used to help a defendant in a trial.
    And at the same time have the equivalent of a cop looking over your shoulder every minute of the day. :rolleyes:
    King Mob wrote: »
    That article has nothing what so ever to the topic at hand..
    [URL="[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/51r89c.jpg[/IMG]"]Plenty. [/URL]
    King Mob wrote: »
    But you're failing consistently to show that any of the information gathered can ever be used against an innocent person.
    You define a criminal or terrorist. Is it someone who breaks the law? Are you talking someone that leaves his wheely bin out on the wrong date? Or some enthusiast that has an interest in trains. :rolleyes:


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    #74
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    So then what's the problem?
    Chances are this will not only help catch actual criminals it could be used to help a defendant in a trial.
    And at the same time have the equivalent of a cop looking over your shoulder every minute of the day. :rolleyes:
    King Mob wrote: »
    That article has nothing what so ever to the topic at hand..
    It has [URL="[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/51r89c.jpg[/IMG]"]plenty [/URL]got to do with it.
    King Mob wrote: »
    But you're failing consistently to show that any of the information gathered can ever be used against an innocent person.
    You define a criminal or terrorist. Is it someone who breaks the law? Are you talking someone that leaves his wheely bin out on the wrong date? Or some enthusiast that has an interest in trains. :rolleyes:


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    #75
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    And at the same time have the equivalent of a cop looking over your shoulder every minute of the day. :rolleyes:
    Except it's not in any way comparable.
    Why would the cops waste the time and effort to look through my bus travel habits.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    It has [URL="[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/51r89c.jpg[/IMG]"]plenty [/URL]got to do with it.
    No it doesn't.
    The article you linked is a about an idea that is in no way near practical or is in anyway planned to be used.
    The idea itself is about monitoring internet chatter with a automatic feature.

    The thread at hand is about wireless transactions.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    You define a criminal or terrorist. Is it someone who breaks the law?
    Yea that's the general definition.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Are you talking someone that leaves his wheely bin out on the wrong date?
    And who has been arrested for that exactly? And who has been arrest for this because they where tracked by wireless transactions?
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Or some enthusiast that has an interest in trains. :rolleyes:
    And how many where arrested because of this?

    Is the big brother out to get train spotters now for some reason?

    Again you fail to show a single case of someone being wrongly arrested due to oyster cards or similar.

    Why are you so scared of this technology exactly?


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    #76
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    Except it's not in any way comparable.
    Why would the cops waste the time and effort to look through my bus travel habits.
    Plenty of reasons. If the authorities wanted any excuse to nab you they have two years of digital fingerprints to flick through at the touch of a button.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Why are you so scared of this technology exactly?
    I am not one bit scared of it, in fact I find the subject quite interesting.

    I also like to know what is going on in the world and at the same time I don't like to see the wool being pulled over our eyes..

    I also like to be aware of its potential if it got into the wrong hands and the world has had some very nasty people.


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    #77
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    They operate on 13.65MHZ and can also carry out all smart card transactions.

    Have you any insight into why they are using such a low frequency
    to transmit this signal?
    I'm not question you on how much you know; to how much I know.
    I am genuinely interested.


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    #78
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Plenty of reasons. If the authorities wanted any excuse to nab you they have two years of digital fingerprints to flick through at the touch of a button.
    And what would they find to nab me on with my bus travelling records?
    That I live in a crap neighbourhood?


    [QUOTE=Run_to_da_hills;63409616
    I am not one bit scared of it, in fact I find the subject quite interesting.

    I also like to know what is going on in the world and at the same time I don't like to see the wool being pulled over our eyes..

    I also like to be aware of its potential if it got into the wrong hands and the world has had some very nasty people.[/QUOTE]Well for all this you sure seem to have a hard time pointing out a single abuse of these systems.

    Since you ignored my other questions I'll assume that no one was arrested in the two examples you gave.


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    #79
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    Have you any insight into why they are using such a low frequency
    to transmit this signal?
    I'm not question you on how much you know; to how much I know.
    I am genuinely interested.

    Primarly down to potential low cost of production, suitibility for very short to medium use


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    #80
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Primarly down to potential low cost of production, suitibility for very short to medium use
    So your saying the reason being is that the other user is in such a close proximity as to only warrant a 13mhz frequency and for low production costs.
    Al right thanks for clearing that up.


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    #81
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    And what would they find to nab me on with my bus traveling records?
    That I live in a crap neighborhood? .
    If you have kids they will more than likely have a lot more hassle with transit authorities and the law if they scan their records than kids of a more up market neighborhood.

    Also If there is a very high crime rate in your "crap neighbourhood" you better be careful with who you sit beside or chat to on the bus because the authorities could have you guilty by association from smart card and CCTV images.


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    #82
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    If you have kids they will have a lot more hassle with transit authorities than kids of a more up market neighborhood. Also If there is a very high crime rate in your area you better be careful with who you sit beside or chat to on the bus because the authorities might have you guilty by association from smart card and CCTV images.
    Seriously that's the worst they can use against you?
    You sat beside someone on a bus?

    I'm terrified.

    Can you show a single example of any of these things happening?


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    #83
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    Seriously that's the worst they can use against you? You sat beside someone on a bus? I'm terrified.
    Edited: You sat beside and were seen chatting to someone a police suspect on a bus?
    Its called "guilty by association" and in this day and age it is up to you to prove your innocence. :rolleyes:
    King Mob wrote: »
    Can you show a single example of any of these things happening?
    No because the system is not fully implimented.

    Do you honestly think the authorities are going to start abusing their rights on a system that they are currently trying to promote? :rolleyes:


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    #84
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Its called "guilty by association" and in this day and age it is up to you to prove your innocence. :rolleyes:
    Really? Cause that's not how the courts work. And I don't think you understand "guilty by association" either.
    And can you name a single person who has been arrested because the sat next to someone?
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    No because the system is not fully implemented.
    So when it is fully implemented that's the worst they can do?
    Yep, terrified.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Do you honestly think the authorities are going to start abusing their rights on a system that they are currently trying to promote? :rolleyes:
    Ah and here's the problem, you're talking about abuses of this system not the system itself.
    You may as well claim the same things about cars cause people could use them to mow down old ladies if they wanted.


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    #85
    Stainless_Steel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭Stainless_Steel


    I feel worrying about this type of stuff causes more stress than the police will give using it against you :D

    I hear what all the CTers are saying about digital fingerprints....but the engineer in me gets kinda excited about this kind of technology.

    King Mob is making a good point. Here's a experiment to prove him right - use your plastic to pay for everything, use smart cards, travel cards etc. lets say for the next 30 years....oh and dont harm anybody....and we'll see if the authorities bother you at all.....I doubt it somehow Rtdh...sorry...


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    #86
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    King Mob wrote: »
    Really? Cause that's not how the courts work. .
    Well its certainly how the courts operated during the trials of the Birmingham 6 and the Guilford 4. :rolleyes:


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    #87
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    Did you know if you pay for a flight with cash; you get flagged straight away, and your records are looked into?


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    #88
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Well its certainly how the courts operated during the trials of the Birmingham 6 and the Guilford 4. :rolleyes:

    So gonna ignore my points then?

    In that case I'll assume you can't point to a single example of the abuses you claim.


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    #89
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    Did you know if you pay for a flight with cash; you get flagged straight away, and your records are looked into?

    Do you have a source for this claim?


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    #90
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    King Mob wrote: »
    Do you have a source for this claim?
    Excuse me?


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    #91
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    Excuse me?

    Do you have any source or evidence to back up this claim?
    How do you know it's true?


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