Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

AJAYC

And there I was thinking I was gaining on you in Shanganagh yesterday, scary session, no wonder I didn't recognise you appearing out of the fog like something from a Stephen King story.

Krusty_Clown

AJAYC wrote: »

And there I was thinking I was gaining on you in Shanganagh yesterday, scary session, no wonder I didn't recognise you appearing out of the fog like something from a Stephen King story.

You were flying and looking very fresh when you passed me in the other direction. I on the other hand was looking at my watch and thinking.... I'm not even half way through my session yet....:( I can't remember being that soaked in a long time. MP3 player gave up the ghost after 12 miles.

Incidentally, last evening after reading through a few posts on this thread, I went back to the JD book, to see who the Plan A is aimed at. Can't remember the exact wording, but it's something along the lines of: This plan will suit those who have a good background in running, who have never run a marathon before.

Now, I adapt the program a fair bit, tweaking it here and there, swapping stuff in and out, adding in a few miles and max out a 100mpw. I'm not sure if I'm the target audience for a program like this, but it seems to work out pretty well for me, taking me pretty close to the over-training line, without sending me spiralling downwards (though I came close last night). The program scales according to one's pace (based on vmax) and planned maximum mileage, so presumably would be similarly beneficial to others. But who is it really for? First-time marathoners? Experienced marathoners? A pre-cursor to the elite plan? At one point I had ideas about following the elite plan, but I have accepted now that I'm not physically or mentally strong enough to complete it. I reckon ideally you'd need to have a long history of competitive running, regularly run high mileage (100mpw+) and have a talent for avoiding injury. Possibly merits some debate on a separate thread.

RayCun

If you were maxing out at 50/60 mpw I presume it would be a much shorter run? Aren't there limits in Daniels, so that only a certain percentage of your weekly mileage should be done at faster than easy pace?

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

If you were maxing out at 50/60 mpw I presume it would be a much shorter run? Aren't there limits in Daniels, so that only a certain percentage of your weekly mileage should be done at faster than easy pace?

The exact wording of the above workout is:
2 Miles Easy
4 x 5-6 mins @Threshold pace (1 mins rest)
10 miles or 80 mins easy pace (whichever is less)
4 x 5-6 mins @Threshold pace (1 mins rest)
2 Miles Easy

So, if you're a 10 minute miler, you're still looking down the barrel of:
2 + 2.5 + 6.5 + 2.5 + 2 = 15.5

Those limits you are referring to only apply to the first 4-5 weeks of the program. After that they're set out like the above.

RayCun

15.5 miles seems a lot more manageable than your 24! It would be about 20/21 for me :eek:

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

15.5 miles seems a lot more manageable than your 24! It would be about 20/21 for me :eek:

My workout should have been 22/23 miles. I covered some extra warm-up/down to get to the cinder track.

Peckham

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

This plan will suit those who have a good background in running, who have never run a marathon before.

Don't have the book to hand at the moment, but isn't there also a more basic plan for those who just want to complete a marathon? Are you sure you're not confusing both of these? (Did a Google Books search, and on page 256 it's suggested that Plan A is for "seasoned marathoners", and the more basic one is for first time marathoners).

That leaves the question open as to who the elite plan is aimed at. Given your successes with Plan A (even just your persistence/ability to complete it a few times!), you would expect that if you feel unable to step up to the next plan, then no-one is!

Krusty_Clown

Peckham wrote: »

Don't have the book to hand at the moment, but isn't there also a more basic plan for those who just want to complete a marathon? Are you sure you're not confusing both of these? (Did a Google Books search, and on page 256 it's suggested that Plan A is for "seasoned marathoners", and the more basic one is for first time marathoners).

That leaves the question open as to who the elite plan is aimed at. Given your successes with Plan A (even just your persistence/ability to complete it a few times!), you would expect that if you feel unable to step up to the next plan, then no-one is!

There is a 'just finish plan'. Do you have a link to the Google Books version? I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty close to the wording for the Plan A. I read somewhere that the Elite plan is ideally for sub 2:10 runners, but a couple of posters here (Tunguska and cwgatlin) have been through it successfully. I'm just not as tough (or crazy) as them!

TRR

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

There is a 'just finish plan'. Do you have a link to the Google Books version? I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty close to the wording for the Plan A. I read somewhere that the Elite plan is ideally for sub 2:10 runners, but a couple of posters here (Tunguska and cwgatlin) have been through it successfully. I'm just not as tough (or crazy) as them!

I'd love to compare what a sub 2.10 runner does relative to this plan. Personally couldn't follow a JD plan, tried before and nearly killed me, different strokes for different folks and all that, certainly has worked for KC. Does anyone know of any elite runners who follow the elite plan?

Krusty_Clown

TRR wrote: »

I'd love to compare what a sub 2.10 runner does relative to this plan. Personally couldn't follow a JD plan, tried before and nearly killed me, different strokes for different folks and all that, certainly has worked for KC. Does anyone know of any elite runners who follow the elite plan?

I know what you're getting at and agree entirely. Highly unlikely that any 2:10 runner is going to follow a plan from a book. Far more likely that they're following an athlete-specific plan provided by a coach or coaching team. That 2:10 comment was on this page and may be his own interpretation of the term 'elite', rather than a quote from the plan's author. Interesting comparison of plans on his page though. He makes the 'just finish' Daniels plan sound very inadequate (max distance of 14 miles for a 4+ hour runner :eek:).

Clearlier

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

There is a 'just finish plan'. Do you have a link to the Google Books version? I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty close to the wording for the Plan A. I read somewhere that the Elite plan is ideally for sub 2:10 runners, but a couple of posters here (Tunguska and cwgatlin) have been through it successfully. I'm just not as tough (or crazy) as them!

You're very close but there's a bit more 'if, but, maybe' about it.

"First-time marathoners with a good background in running might find that this program suits them well'

TRR

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I know what you're getting at and agree entirely. Highly unlikely that any 2:10 runner is going to follow a plan from a book.

I wasn't actually being a smart arse (this time) but I'd love to know if any 2.10 runners do sessions like those prescribed. I remember seeing Ryan Hall's training plan when he was being trained by Jesus or whoever and he had hard MP running and some sessions but nothing as hard as some of the JD sessions. I wonder if the bible has a training appendix now I think of it.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

He makes the 'just finish' Daniels plan sound very inadequate (max distance of 14 miles for a 4+ hour runner ).

Have been thinking about this recently. Read an article a while back and it was saying runs over 3 hours are counterproductive and made reference to 4+ hour runners and how they try do 20 mile runs in training and how they can be counterproductive. Made a bit of sense to me but agree 14 miles is a bit light

Krusty_Clown

TRR wrote: »

Have been thinking about this recently. Read an article a while back and it was saying runs over 3 hours are counterproductive and made reference to 4+ hour runners and how they try do 20 mile runs in training and how they can be counterproductive. Made a bit of sense to me but agree 14 miles is a bit light

Counterproductive from a potential injury perspective, or counterproductive as in 'leading to a deterioration in readiness for the race'? I can certainly see how the risk of injury would increase, but there's a significant confidence boost associated with running up to 20 miles and I'm imagine some kind of physiological adaptation (but you'd know more about that stuff than me!).

TRR

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Counterproductive from a potential injury perspective, or counterproductive as in 'leading to a deterioration in readiness for the race'? I can certainly see how the risk of injury would increase, but there's a significant confidence boost associated with running up to 20 miles and I'm imagine some kind of physiological adaptation (but you'd know more about that stuff than me!).

Potential for injury. It's aimed at 4+ hour marathon runners really. There is something in it but I agree with you there is a requirement to run for up to 20 miles a couple of times minimum in a training cycle.

linky here

antomagoo

Just given your recent crazy training schedule/sessions I thought I might bring you back to this quote form a post on the first page of your log.

The marathons (ok, I've only done two) is really where I see myself (get most enjoyment out of the training/racing/accomplishment),

Would this still be a fair comment 5 years on?

RayCun

Not fair to ask someone that five weeks out from a marathon when they're praying for the conveyor belt of training to come to a stop:)

Krusty_Clown

antomagoo wrote: »

Just given your recent crazy training schedule/sessions I thought I might bring you back to this quote form a post on the first page of your log.



Would this still be a fair comment 5 years on?

Absolutely, 100%.

tunguska

Im pretty surprised at the reaction of people to that 4T + 10E + 4T session, in reality its not that bad at all and I think it highlights a point thats interesting about how people can look at something on paper and have a knee jerk reaction to it and immedialtely say, no way, as opposed to giving it a shot and seeing how it really is. I would rather do that session than a 22 mile run at easy pace, the different segments break it up nicely and keep things interesting.

thewolf_ie

tunguska wrote: »

Im pretty surprised at the reaction of people to that 4T + 10E + 4T session, in reality its not that bad at all and I think it highlights a point thats interesting about how people can look at something on paper and have a knee jerk reaction to it and immedialtely say, no way, as opposed to giving it a shot and seeing how it really is. I would rather do that session than a 22 mile run at easy pace, the different segments break it up nicely and keep things interesting.

I agree!

Krusty_Clown

tunguska wrote: »

Im pretty surprised at the reaction of people to that 4T + 10E + 4T session, in reality its not that bad at all and I think it highlights a point thats interesting about how people can look at something on paper and have a knee jerk reaction to it and immedialtely say, no way, as opposed to giving it a shot and seeing how it really is. I would rather do that session than a 22 mile run at easy pace, the different segments break it up nicely and keep things interesting.

I figured that you might have that kind of reaction. In relative terms (relative to the Elite plan) it's a pretty run of the mill session. But relative to a range of more basic plans, where most people are coming from (Higdon, FIRST, P&D) it's a bit of a departure, as it combines long run and quality running (which most other plans don't). Certainly those two sessions I did with you guys out in Tallaght were a bit of an eye opener, as they were so far removed from anything I had done before. I'd agree... they are much harder on paper then in reality, particularly if you build up to them by progressing through the complete plan. When I was chatting to cwgatlin during the Athlone half, he was a little shocked to hear that I was following Plan A. I reckon it's a pretty solid plan for those who are looking to step up a little, and are willing to back it up with some decent mileage.

Are you following the elite plan, or a DIY plan?

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are you following the elite plan, or a DIY plan?

I've had to go DIY this year as I just didnt have the weeks left until the marathon. Have taken bits and pieces from elite plan though, actually just did that 4T + 10 E +4T session two weeks ago(horrendous weather that day).
Have actually done most of my faster stuff on the treadmill which suits me as Im not sure the achilles/calve would've held up to fast stuff on the road. I dont know how it'll work out on the day but at the very least its an interesting experiment.

Krusty_Clown

Thursday: 5.75 mile easy run
Supposed to be a recovery, but these days, after the legs loosen up, the pace seems to naturally pick up.

Friday: 6 miles easy with some core

Saturday: Moone Kilomarathon
I believe that as I crossed the finish line in this race last year and tore off my number in disgust, I swore that I would never set foot in Moone again. In the intervening 12 months my will has softened, and I have come around to the idea that the person in the fluorescent jacket who directed me (and another 20 runners) down the wrong road may not have had anything to do with the race and may just have been a well intentioned but meddling member of the public. Aware that I'd missed a 15 mile PMP session in favour of the Athlone Half marathon, I felt I needed some more miles at target pace. Had I checked the schedule signing up for the Kilomarathon, I'd probably have swapped things around so I wouldn't have the long session just two days earlier, but them's the breaks. Got a lift out with Pronator and it was good to catch up on how he's fairing for Dublin and we did a few warm-up miles with his buddy Paul.

The start was an amusing affair, with the local parish priest providing a brief sermon before the off. I didn't recognize any 'big players' at the front of the line, but as the gun went priest counted backwards from 3 to 1, three runners took to the fore; a Raheny lad seemed the strongest, with two other lads chasing in his wake. It mattered little. I wasn't here to race, but to pace, with the plan to hit 6:00/mile and stick to it for the duration.

Over the initial climb, Pronator and I were joined by a lad in a Tallaght singlet, and we chatted easily over the first few miles, with the pace averaging around 5:58-6:00/mile. After a few miles, we hit a drag, and I continued to chase the pace, while the two lads drifted off a little. And so it remained pretty much for the entire run. A civil defense ambulance pulled up in front of me and led the way, just 200m ahead for the entire race. Not sure why the guy in 4th place had a lead vehicle. Either the organizer's were sick of my whingeing about getting lost last year, or I was looking decidedly unhealthy, but either way, I was glad to have the company.

Felt strong for the first 10 miles despite rising heat (60:10), but the tiredness in the legs and the heat contributed to a tough last 6.3 miles. I watched on as my target pace fell away, waiting/anticipating/hoping for the other lads to catch me, but they were going through the same type of troubles. Mile by mile I willed the finish line closer, as the average pace gradually dropped back to 6:05/mile. Eventually, I hit the hills that signaled the approaching finish line and they were tough, but an end to suffering dragged me onwards. I finished in 4th (and another old fella title), but must confess to being a little disappointed. I was hoping for a personal vote of confidence that I'm good for my marathon target, but it didn't come. I know I didn't make life easy for myself, but still the signs are there that I'm in similar shape to the weeks leading up to London. Still some tests remaining, so it's not decision time yet.

Summary: 20 miles, with 16.3@6:06/mile

BeepBeep67

Chin up - that's a great run after what you put your body through on Weds.
The end is in sight - just keep it between the ditches now!

Kurt Godel

Very good report to read. The little bit of doubt towards the end makes it all the more interesting. Can't wait for the conclusion.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

with the pace averaging around 5:58-6:00/mile.

Could you be more specific?

Abhainn

I echo the last two stalwarts.
Note sure what you were expecting. After Wed that was very solid.
Don't doubt yourself now

Badreputation

Just catching up on your log.... savage going. Don't know where you get the hours in the day for that training. I'm tired just reading it!!! Fair play to you... you'll have some marathon.

ultrapercy

Well done KC, some great sessions and races lately. Youl peak at the right time, the 6min/sub6min pace will feel a lot easier in 4 weeks when your tapered and fresh.

Krusty_Clown

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Very good report to read. The little bit of doubt towards the end makes it all the more interesting. Can't wait for the conclusion.

You make it sound like an intricately plotted fable, where the hero/protagonist starts off well, then goes through a rough patch, before snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. I can only hope.

Sunday: 5 mile recovery run
Monday: 5 mile easy run
4 Weeks to go. These are the parts of the plan I struggle with. There are two good sessions: a 19-20 mile session with lots of threshold running, and a 22 mile long run, all part of a 70 mile week, which leaves me with 29 miles to spread across 5 days. That's like getting someone hooked on Heisenberg's blue crystal, before telling them that this week they can only have a bit of weed. But I suppose the legs will feel a bit better for it.

thewolf_ie

Heisenberg's blue crystal ha ha

Your some man!

Krusty_Clown

Today: JDA: 35 mins Easy + 20 mins Threshold + 30 mins Easy + 20 mins Threshold
Why can't they all go as well as this?! Weather was sh1te, work was busy and was still feeling a little tired after Saturday, but I just made that leap of faith and threw myself out the door.... Into sheets of rain.. Was well and truly soaked by the time I hit the cinder track, after a longer route than normal (to accommodate the first 35-40 minute easy section. The only word to describe the first 20 minute threshold section was 'cruising'. It passed in a flash and never felt very tough. Even the rain couldn't spoil the mood. Was supposed to do another 35-40 minutes at easy pace, but the stomach was acting up so had to make a dash for a discretionary location. Ordinarily, I'd head for the nearest supermarket (toilets), but this run was going so well, I didn't want to delay the second Threshold section.

I was running out of time though, as I had to be back for a work meeting, and calculated that I'd have about three minutes to spare between getting back to work and dialing into the conference call, so had to cut the second easy section short by 5 minutes (but ran an extra mile during the warm-down). Second threshold section wasn't a cruise, but wasn't massively difficult either. No dry retching, no massive gasping, just a brief moment to stick the headphones back on and start the trek back to work.... Where I arrived with three minutes to spare...

Easy run: 5 miles in 38 mins @7:39/mile
Tempo: 3.5 miles in 19:53 @5:40/mile
Easy run: 4 miles in 30 mins, @7:24/mile
Tempo: 3.5 miles in 20:05, @5:44/mile
Warm-down: 2.9 miles @7:25/mile

Summary: ~19.4 miles in 2:10, @6:43/mile