Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

Krusty_Clown

This week:
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Rest
Thursday: Rest
Friday: 5 miles recovery run in 40 mins, @8:09/mile
Saturday: 6 miles easy in Shangannagh Park with the spikes, in 44 mins, @7:21/mile
Sunday: 8.65 hilly trail miles in 74 mins, @8:29/mile

wrstan

Hope I'm not too late to squeeze into the pre-London chapter (I've been away;)), but I just wanted to say a really well done - fantastic run Gary and a great result. Really enjoyed your race report as always.

From the outside looking in it looks like it's been an incredible year for you, with lots of reward for your hard work and consistency, and hey how would you keep yourself motivated if you felt you'd achieved all you had wanted to on the 29th October! Next stop .... the mind boggles!:)

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

First off great report as always Gary, i always enjoy reading them. I think it shows the type of character you are to be somewhat dissapointed (not that you should be). Dublin was never a goal race starting off with London being the main focus but your training was always pointing towards 2:41 as being a realistic goal. I remember reading that 16 PMP training run post and said yep he is good to go. How did you feel taper went? Would you change anything during taper or the peak phase? You will find London is probably 90secs to 2mins quicker than Dublin having run both.
Just realised i am offering up advice when my pb is 22mins slower:pac: Should be the other way around and you are way older than me:)

Dory Dory

KC, I have one question. You once told me that you need to train faster than your goal time - did you do that?

myflipflops

TRR wrote: »

myflipflops inner fat boy won't be able to resist and will have to stop

Inner fat boy? 13.5 stone and 34 inch waist. You are challenging an outwardly fat bloke. That's your level.

RacoonQueen

Vaughn Easy Stepchildren wrote: »

Should be the other way around and you are way older than me:)

Bit of an exaggeration. He's only a bit older than you.

The Clown wrote:

I have never ran more miles and needed physio or rest days less.

Why do you think that is? Being in better shape or training smarter? Change in diet, more rest, better paced recovery runs?

average_runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Some closing stats, before I open a new chapter on London:

• I came 39th in the National Marathon Championship. I came 51st in the National Half marathon championships. The Half-marathon championship, despite having 1,000 runners less, is more competitive than the national marathon championship.
• Myself, Abhainn and Pronator came 12th out 72 teams in the Masters team category, despite the fact that the two lads were pacing the three hour group. If they had been competing and ran close to their PBs, we'd have won the Masters competition. Easily. With 12 minutes to spare.
• If I put my 10k time into McMillan, it predicts a marathon finish of 2:43:30 (7 seconds out from my actual time). I wasn't targeting that time, so no self-fulfilling prophecies there. Just a bit of chance!
• My half-marathon (which I was a lot happier with) scored 579 in the IAAF scoring table. My marathon scored 642.
• As a result of the marathon, my VDOT dropped a point, from 61, down to 60. If I had stayed at VDOT 60, I would have beaten my vdot marathon prediction by four seconds.
• I have never ran more miles and needed physio or rest days less.

So before you start the London Chapter, will you continue with the Daniels training plan or try something else?

Krusty_Clown

wrstan wrote: »

From the outside looking in it looks like it's been an incredible year for you, with lots of reward for your hard work and consistency, and hey how would you keep yourself motivated if you felt you'd achieved all you had wanted to on the 29th October! Next stop .... the mind boggles!:)

Thanks wrstan, but the numbers are not in the realm of incredible! I've taken around 25 seconds off my 5k time, 84 seconds off my 10k time (probably what I'm most happy with), two minutes off my half marathon and 5 minutes off my marathon (which is a little flattering, as I didn't get a proper go last year due to hot weather). Lots of folks here have made far more significant gains and didn't have to run 3,000 miles to do it!

Jackyback wrote:

How did you feel taper went? Would you change anything during taper or the peak phase? You will find London is probably 90secs to 2mins quicker than Dublin having run both.
Just realised i am offering up advice when my pb is 22mins slower Should be the other way around and you are way older than me

I am as old as I am tall. Yeah, taper went well, however, I did find the 16 mile pmp (in hillier conditions) easier than the first 16 miles of the marathon. I had someone to run the first 8 miles or so with me during the Kilomarathon which was great as it took the race-pressure off. One other thing struck me, and that was that my legs felt better at the end of the 100 mile week, than they did the morning of the marathon. In fact, they also felt better this last weekend gone by. So perhaps a shorter/sharper taper might suit me better. Would I change anything? Most certainly. I started the marathon with the idea of just mucking about. I didn't really jump into the Daniels plan until the start of September, so didn't give it a proper go (realistically, I ran the last 10 weeks of the plan). So whatever plan I do end up following, I'll be investing more time into it and less time pi$$ing about. I do intend racing just as much, as that's where I derive a lot of the pleasure from running, these days. Advice is always welcome. It doesn't matter what anyone's PB is. Most of the best teachers weren't necessarily also the best students.

RayCun

It does seem that you decided early on that the race wasn't going to plan. I guess not being able to find a group to work with must make it harder mentally?

average_runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thanks wrstan, but the numbers are not in the realm of incredible! I've taken around 25 seconds off my 5k time, 84 seconds off my 10k time (probably what I'm most happy with), two minutes off my half marathon and 5 minutes off my marathon (which is a little flattering, as I didn't get a proper go last year due to hot weather). Lots of folks here have made far more significant gains and didn't have to run 3,000 miles to do it!


I am as old as I am tall. Yeah, taper went well, however, I did find the 16 mile pmp (in hillier conditions) easier than the first 16 miles of the marathon. I had someone to run the first 8 miles or so with me during the Kilomarathon which was great as it took the race-pressure off. One other thing struck me, and that was that my legs felt better at the end of the 100 mile week, than they did the morning of the marathon. In fact, they also felt better this last weekend gone by. So perhaps a shorter/sharper taper might suit me better. Would I change anything? Most certainly. I started the marathon with the idea of just mucking about. I didn't really jump into the Daniels plan until the start of September, so didn't give it a proper go (realistically, I ran the last 10 weeks of the plan). So whatever plan I do end up following, I'll be investing more time into it and less time pi$$ing about. I do intend racing just as much, as that's where I derive a lot of the pleasure from running, these days. Advice is always welcome. It doesn't matter what anyone's PB is. Most of the best teachers weren't necessarily also the best students.

Look forward to reading the London training log. Sorry didn't get to meet ye in McGrattans, i didn't recognise any boards when i went in, so i moved on. Have feeling there might of been some boards in the first room opposite the door when i looked in.

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thanks wrstan, but the numbers are not in the realm of incredible! I've taken around 25 seconds off my 5k time, 84 seconds off my 10k time (probably what I'm most happy with), two minutes off my half marathon and 5 minutes off my marathon (which is a little flattering, as I didn't get a proper go last year due to hot weather). Lots of folks here have made far more significant gains and didn't have to run 3,000 miles to do it!

To be fair those gains are impressive given how long you have been running now and how relatively high up you would be in the pecking order these days. Also lets not forget some pretty useful times on the track off no prior experience.

Enjoyed the report. I'm always told that you should never turn your nose up at a PB, but it's easy to say that when you have races every week or two over your preferred distance. But the marathon is a funny one in that you can only really get 2 good cracks at it a year, so I think you have every right to feel a bit dissatisfied, even if the result to us is seen as impressive.

No doubt the times will continue to come down in 2013.

Krusty_Clown

Dory Dory wrote: »

KC, I have one question. You once told me that you need to train faster than your goal time - did you do that?

Nope, I did not. In fact, I did the opposite. I trained for a specific goal, and with 4/5 weeks to go, I bumped up my target. If I hadn't, I would have been bang on target, though who is to say that in that eventuality, I would have run slower. During the Daniels Plan, there are specific points in time where you can revise your VDOT. Along with that change in VDOT comes a change in planned marathon pace (and ultimately your goal time). Who is to say that by training at a slightly tougher marathon pace I didn't gain vital seconds during my race, even if I didn't make the revised target?

I do strongly believe that if you are aiming for a specific time goal (like 3:15, 3:00, 2:50, 2:45, 2:40) you need to train for a time a couple of minutes quicker than that, as the margins of error are just too small (I missed my target by 1.64%).

average_runner wrote:

So before you start the London Chapter, will you continue with the Daniels training plan or try something else?

Daniels is the 'something else'! I had followed the P&D plan for the previous 5/6 marathons, so truth be told it (and I) were getting a bit stale. I had bought the book some time ago but had never invested the time in reading through it. It took the two sessions with the Tallaght AC lads to realize that here was a training plan that exercised me in different positive ways and also afforded me the flexibility to decide my running plan on a daily basis, which fit in really well with my long working hours and family needs.

I was flicking through the 5k-15k plan last night, and it looks interesting. So I might jump into Phase 2 (phase 1 is all easy running and base building, which I don't need). But first, I need to make sure I'm fully recovered. I'm a little stiff after yesterday's hill/trail run (which was the complete opposite of marathon training!), which suggests that there is a bit more recovery required.

pgibbo

Worth the wait KC. Congrats on a super time and roll on London! :cool:

Krusty_Clown

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Why do you think that is? Being in better shape or training smarter? Change in diet, more rest, better paced recovery runs?

Actually, I think it's the 'more miles' part is the solution. I remember T-Runner noting the importance of basic aerobic miles as part of a marathon plan and I have to agree. During the plan I was running at least once or twice every day, with no rest days and it just built strength and general conditioning (physical and mental). It got to a stage where I felt I was literally running all of the time. It became near obsessive (there was nothing that would stop me going out for a run, except family priorities). My youngest child mentioned on more than one occasion that she was worried about me and thought I ran too much. I ate most of my mid-week dinners on my own at 10pm or 11pm after my second run of the day. I guess that's the cost of progress. It's the darker side of trying to hit a goal that doesn't get discussed too much in training logs. We tend to focus on the training run itself, but rarely on the consequences of that training run beyond the physical impact.

So far this year, I have run 2,899 miles (that's an average of 9.35 miles per day). You throw in all of the core training, all of the time spent changing, showering, stretching, hydrating, fueling.... Suddenly 5 minutes over the course of 26.2 miles doesn't sound all that impressive!

RayCun

That's the thing that most impresses me about your training, btw. I've increased my training hours a fair bit this year, but I have very stable hours so I get to run first thing in the morning or straight after work most of the time. You run at lunchtime, at night, on business trips...
Your consistency, given those challenges, is amazing.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

That's the thing that most impresses me about your training, btw. I've increased my training hours a fair bit this year, but I have very stable hours so I get to run first thing in the morning or straight after work most of the time. You run at lunchtime, at night, on business trips...
Your consistency, given those challenges, is amazing.

Obsession is my strength?! Knew it would come in handy some day!

Tonight: Easy 7.7 mile run home from work
Nice handy run back from work with Keith123. The homeward trip is arranged perfectly as there's a gradual 75m drop on the way home. Cracking way to wipe away the stresses of a working day. Haven't tried the early morning trip to work yet though. Not looking forward to it.
Summary: 7.74 miles in 57:15, @7:23

wrstan

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thanks wrstan, but the numbers are not in the realm of incredible! I've taken around 25 seconds off my 5k time, 84 seconds off my 10k time (probably what I'm most happy with), two minutes off my half marathon and 5 minutes off my marathon (which is a little flattering, as I didn't get a proper go last year due to hot weather).

Maybe incredible was a poor choice of word and doesn't do justice to the work you've put in this year, but those are still pretty impressive numbers! they are certainly inspiring to a mid pack plodder like me - and that's on a good day

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Lots of folks here have made far more significant gains and didn't have to run 3,000 miles to do it!

Maybe so, I have a friend who bagged a 38 minute PB at DCM 2012 which is fantastic, but you won't be surprised to hear that her improvement was off a much more modest start point.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

So far this year, I have run 2,899 miles (that's an average of 9.35 miles per day). You throw in all of the core training, all of the time spent changing, showering, stretching, hydrating, fueling....

Not to mention the time you spend around these parts offering helpful advice to others

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

My youngest child mentioned on more than one occasion that she was worried about me and thought I ran too much.

Out of the mouths of babes and all that ...;)

Hey KC, please don't take these comments as anything other than mere observations from a far less experienced and proficient runner.

PS good to see you out this evening, I was impressed with the bare legs on a night like tonight! I debated the shorts vs. leggings (never both!) long and hard, well for about 5 seconds before I went for the leggings. Funny thing was by the time I was on my way back, I was sorry I hadn't gone for the shorts. Take it EZ!:)

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

So far this year, I have run 2,899 miles (that's an average of 9.35 miles per day). You throw in all of the core training, all of the time spent changing, showering, stretching, hydrating, fueling.... Suddenly 5 minutes over the course of 26.2 miles doesn't sound all that impressive!

If you had done the above and during the year only gone from 3:05 to 3:00 or something like that I would fully agree with you, but, whether you think agree or not, you are performing at a pretty high level now, the type of level where more effort is needed for less gains. That's just the way it goes in this sport. There's nothing you can do about it, and you are being way too hard on yourself. Those improvements this year given the starting points are certainly impressive. But regardless, it's all onwards and upwards now, and the improvements won't finish for some time yet.

Krusty_Clown

wrstan wrote: »

PS good to see you out this evening, I was impressed with the bare legs on a night like tonight! I debated the shorts vs. leggings (never both!) long and hard, well for about 5 seconds before I went for the leggings. Funny thing was by the time I was on my way back, I was sorry I hadn't gone for the shorts. Take it EZ!:)

Yeah, you too. Would've have stopped to chat but at that stage I was in dire need of a toilet and not the kind of dire need that you can fulfill with a lamppost! The choice between leggings and shorts is made very easy when you start your run from work and have a limited wardrobe choice available. But still, I'd have gone with the shorts. Way too early to break out the leggings! When it gets really cold, will you reach for two pairs of leggings?!

Pisco Sour wrote:

But regardless, it's all onwards and upwards now, and the improvements won't finish for some time yet.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm feeling good about my next marathon, but after that we'll have to wait and see. It is inevitable that increasing the training load every year will exact its toll, but for the time being, it's still managable.

nerraw1111

Some great nuggets of advice and expertise in here.

I was thinking of having a craic at Daniel's 5 - 15km plan. Presume 2 weeks relatively rest after DCM is enough before starting?

Krusty_Clown

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I was thinking of having a craic at Daniel's 5 - 15km plan. Presume 2 weeks relatively rest after DCM is enough before starting?

I've been thinking along similar lines. Easy running for two weeks then jump straight back into it. If you're still feeling 'arthritic' after two weeks though, best to give it another week. You want to be fully recovered before launching into an aggressive middle distance plan, rather than mostly recovered, but no problems with alternating easy/recovery runs until then. I actually cycled into work this morning (getting onto the bike for the first time since June!) and it highlighted some pain in my quads that I didn't know I had. I had forgotten about the healing/stretching powers of the bicycle (and what a pain in the a$$ a head-wind can be).

nerraw1111

Cheers. So you'd recommend the Daniel's plan then? Only plan I've followed previously was P & D.

I read that schedule is done in minutes rather than distance? That correct?

Main aim would be to get the times down over the winter while maintaining some decent long runs.

Yup, the bike shows up a whole new set of niggles. I found that even a small bit of MTBing really helps the quads

Krusty_Clown

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Cheers. So you'd recommend the Daniel's plan then? Only plan I've followed previously was P & D.

I read that schedule is done in minutes rather than distance? That correct?

I haven't done it previously, so couldn't really recommend it, but hopefully will start giving it a lash from Monday. I can't recall exactly whether workouts are measured by time or distance, but the marathon workouts in Plan A tended to include a mixture of both, so I'd imagine that the 5-15k training plan would be similar. I often did a conversion for convenience. e.g. if the workout suggested 15-20 minutes @tempo, I would do 5k, as it falls approximately in the middle of the range and I find it easier to conceptualize distance rather than time remaining, when your heart is trying to burst out of your chest.

Woddle

Just catching up Krusty. Big congrats, you deserve all the good vibes coming your way.
Another thing that stands out though when I read your log is that you're a pretty good writer. When I read your reports I feel like I'm there with you and when you're explaining your reasons for doing whatever session, you always make it seem simple.
On that note when can we expect the book ''Krusty's guide to the marathon'' it'd be a top seller

Micilin Muc

Woddle wrote: »

Another thing that stands out though when I read your log is that you're a pretty good writer. When I read your reports I feel like I'm there with you and when you're explaining your reasons for doing whatever session, you always make it seem simple.

I'm in the middle of reading Ryan Hall's book/training log Running with Joy and I have to say that Krusty's log is a much better read. I like the honesty in this log.

Krusty_Clown

Cracking idea. What kind of title should I go for:
Krusty's glorious transformation from average runner to slightly above average runner
Or:
Krusty's runs: Some of the best woods and copses in Ireland to enjoy a sneaky poo (now complete with GPS co-ordinates!).

Kurt Godel

"Pushing all the wrong buttons: a lazy man's guide to avoiding two thirds of the Garmin 910XT"

Krusty_Clown

Kurt Godel wrote: »

"Pushing all the wrong buttons: a lazy man's guide to avoiding two thirds of the Garmin 910XT"

One third! One third!!! Proof!. ...and you a maths professor!

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

How do you think something like that would work though? Would you do the first 10 weeks of the program and then jump into the last two weeks? I'd have thought that doing the last 12 weeks of the program would be jumping into the middle of a very tough program.

Its a bit of a dilemma alright. I was gonna ask mark see what he thinks but jumping in at week 13 would be asking for trouble. I think the best thing to do would be to follow the plan as is, 6 week base build then into sessions. But then go from the end of week 12 directly to the start of week 19, skipping 13 - 18 entirely. Thats still a fairly heafty program, just not as draining as the full whack.

Altough I have been thinking about the less is more approach. The first marathon I ran I was only doing about 30 - 40miles/week, with a longest run of 13 miles. And I only ran 3 - 4 days/week. I did 3:02 but I was on target for 2:56. Hit the wall at 22miles gone which isnt exactly a glowing recommendation for not running 20milers in training. But still I think had I run a few 20 -24s I would've nailed 2:56 off the back of a low volume approach. It was the marathon where I felt the freshest and strongest(for 22 miles anyway). I had a look at that FIRST plan and it is interesting, my only concern is it seems like theres nobody whos even run under 2:40 on that schedule. It'd be an interesting experiment to try and run a fast marathon off the back of a low mileage approach. Like only running 3-4 days/week and not so many long killer sessions. Getting to the startline very fresh but admittedly not having done the same volume of work as those around you. You'd need to be confident and not the kind of person who affected by what others do or dont do in training, but I'd be interested to see if it'd work out.
Anyway log well and truly hijacked at this stage, I'm off to hit an israeli embassy somewhere.......

Krusty_Clown

Ha! It's funny you should mention that. I was going through some old photos before deleting them, and there were some that my OH took during the Dublin marathon in 2008. Yourself, Abhainn and Pronator all finished within a minute (and a couple of places) of each other that year.