BER Cert ?

Chimpster

sydthebeat wrote: »

and thats why we have to break the mold of the traditional construction methods and systems. We have a lot of catching up to do when compared to scandanavia and central europe...

We sure do, anyone who goes on the SIGA trip to Switz will have a fair idea of where we need to get to.

That goal seems a galaxy away when you are scratching your head in the middle of an energy audit of a house thats 2 years old and wondering can you trust the builder when he says he put 70ml of insulation in the floor and your trusty camera is telling you other wise... And then there is a sample of the floor taken and guess what... there is 25ml of EPS in the floor!

FACT.

Chimpster

No6 wrote: »

I don't disagree with you on this chimpster for new build but what about existing houses, short of totally gutting them and doing major rebuilding work existing housing stock will never get to passive, if a house has oil heating its relatively easy to switch over to wood pellets, all you need is a bit of space. It will be considerably cheaper that going passive!!

Your right. The existing stock is another days work alright.

No6

Chimpster wrote: »

We sure do, anyone who goes on the SIGA trip to Switz will have a fair idea of where we need to get to.

That goal seems a galaxy away when you are scratching your head in the middle of an energy audit of a house thats 2 years old and wondering can you trust the builder when he says he put 70ml of insulation in the floor and your trusty camera is telling you other wise... And then there is a sample of the floor taken and guess what... there is 25ml of EPS in the floor!

FACT.

I'm supposed to be going in December but I havnt heard a dicky bird about it!! You seem not to trust builders thats shocking really considering SEI seem to trust them completely for new house assessments, all they have to do is sign a piece of paper saying they put whatever they want into the house, wheather they did or not and the fine if they're caught only 5000, just a bit more than the trianing as an assessor!!!:D

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

I do, go carbon neutral my son, one of my greatest fears is that Gormley will insist on installing a methane meter on my ass and taxing me on my flatulence levels (Pretty high at times!!!) Seriously though go for wood pellets look at what they can do for your carbon levels in your BER calculations!!

Better again choose a log burner.

fishfoodie

No6 wrote: »

I'm supposed to be going in December but I havnt heard a dicky bird about it!! You seem not to trust builders thats shocking really considering SEI seem to trust them completely for new house assessments, all they have to do is sign a piece of paper saying they put whatever they want into the house, wheather they did or not and the fine if they're caught only 5000, just a bit more than the trianing as an assessor!!!:D

What happens if a person buys a new house with a particular energy rating ( supplied by their Builder ) & say after a few years they become suspicious that they're ploughing a lot more money into heating than they should.

They go off & get a new BER assessment done & surprise, surprise the actual energy rating doesn't reflect in any way the one provided by the builder.

How will this senario play out ? Because after lurking here a few months I get the impression that a lot of people on here are less than convinced that the BER assessors working for builders are, shall we say, Independent :rolleyes:

Are we talking about the owner going to Homebond, or the Assessor, or a Solicitor to sue all sundry ?

For clarity; I'm not talking about a minor enough variance in BER Vs Reality. I'm talking about a work of fiction supported by evidence of stuff like missing insulation etc.

No6

In fairness fishfoodie I think most of the assessors will be and are impartial, I'm sure there will be one or two bad ones but thats the same in every field. My point is the for a BER cert for new build the assessor does not even see the house, not once and has to get the builder and or houseowner to sign off on what he puts into his assessment.

fishfoodie

No6 wrote: »

In fairness fishfoodie I think most of the assessors will be and are impartial, I'm sure there will be one or two bad ones but thats the same in every field. My point is the for a BER cert for new build the assessor does not even see the house, not once and has to get the builder and or houseowner to sign off on what he puts into his assessment.

Fair enough, I may have over egged the pudding a bit, on the assessors impartiality.

Let me put it another way.

Lets say the BER Assessor gives an energy rating assessment, in good faith, on a particular design. Then the builder starts building, & after a few houses, they decide to reduce insulation here & there, or start installing a less efficient boiler etc, to reduce there costs.

Who would a buyer chase for resolution ?

Does the Assessor have any implied liability to ensure the certified build is used ( I'm assuming not ? )

Would disbutes go thru Homebond ?

I'm trying to tease out how a homeowner would resolve an issue where they bought on the strength on a BER certificate, discovered it was inaccurate & wanted resolution / compensation.

No6

Fair enough, I may have over egged the pudding a bit, on the assessors impartiality.

Let me put it another way.

Lets say the BER Assessor gives an energy rating assessment, in good faith, on a particular design. Then the builder starts building, & after a few houses, they decide to reduce insulation here & there, or start installing a less efficient boiler etc, to reduce there costs.

Suprise suprise!!

Who would a buyer chase for resolution ?

The Builder, through SEI

Does the Assessor have any implied liability to ensure the certified build is used ( I'm assuming not ? )

No the assessment can only be finalised after the build is complete, they would be liable if they were told one thing and put in another ( ie made a serious mistake in inputting the data)

Would disbutes go thru Homebond ?

No I'd start with SEI, not all houses are homebond

I'm trying to tease out how a homeowner would resolve an issue where the bought on the strength on a BER certificate, discovered it was inaccurate & wanted resolution / compensation.

I'd start with SEI to be honest, they will randomly inspect finished dewllings and compar them to the BER cert, They will also audit a number of the BER certs submitted, particuralry those with higher than the regulation performance so the assessor has to be able to prove where he got the information but to my mind it dosnt stop some builders being inventive with their specifications!!!:rolleyes:

fishfoodie

Thanks for taking the time to reply No6 !

I guess that answers my question. The assessor is responsible for the assessment & the builder is responsible for the implementation.

Unfortunately the Construction Industry being what it is I can see no end of issues with the scenario I mentioned & I'd hoped there was some kind of umbrella fund & dispute resolution process for BER, because as you mentioned, Homebond doesn't cover all new builds & if a builder goes bust your s**t out of luck

My confidence in the SEI having the Will or the Manpower to manage the issues arising from the BER process is just about zero.

Oh well, as ever, I guess you just have to find a builder you can trust.

RKQ

fishfoodie wrote: »

Oh well, as ever, I guess you just have to find a builder you can trust.

This is very true but more importantly you need your Certifier to inspect the construction regularly - foundations, floor, blockwork, roof, airtight membrane etc. To ensure high standards and ultimately compliance.:)

No6

Agreed RKQ.

topcatcbr

fishfoodie wrote: »

My confidence in the SEI having the Will or the Manpower to manage the issues arising from the BER process is just about zero.

At the moment SEI are auditing all Certs issued as the number is quite small and it is managable to do so. It also nips any rogery in the bud.

No6

topcatcbr wrote: »

At the moment SEI are auditing all Certs issued as the number is quite small and it is managable to do so. It also nips any rogery in the bud.

Discourages rogery from the assessors but I don't see that as being a huge problem its the builders signing off on what they have put into the house, its easy enough from them to find out what a good spec would be, like ask the assessor then say the've put it in and don't, unless SEI are inspecting houses as well, all the auditing in the world will show up nothing. Theres no physical link between the assesor and a new build which i personally think is a huge flaw in the system, at least with the existing houses an assessot will have to visit the site.

sinnerboy

When the certs are used to generate carbon tax (CT) - and they will .

Assessors will be under huge pressure to cert "correctly" :rolleyes: for the client .

I have not changed my initial view that the vast majority will see the BER cert process as just another un welcome drain on income , linked in with water charges, A+E fees , 1% levy etc , etc ....

My wish for this implementation - is govt. CT- taxes on basis of property age - with poor default ratings assumed . That way the assessor is the good guy and in most cases at the very least he/she will produce a document ( almost ) guaranteed to reduce the client CT liability .

Result - demand for certs will be incentivised . The client will feel "they are getting something back" .

bbam

No6 wrote: »

at least with the existing houses an assessot will have to visit the site.

Friend in the midlands has arranged a BER cert for his house which is for sale (~8 years old). Assessor isn't visiting the house... Just issuing the cert on the spec given by the vendor over phone..
Surely this is a shocking abuse..
Hopefully spot checks will stop this type of thing..

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

Discourages rogery from the assessors but I don't see that as being a huge problem its the builders signing off on what they have put into the house, its easy enough from them to find out what a good spec would be, like ask the assessor then say the've put it in and don't, unless SEI are inspecting houses as well, all the auditing in the world will show up nothing. Theres no physical link between the assesor and a new build which i personally think is a huge flaw in the system, at least with the existing houses an assessot will have to visit the site.

Personally I get the contractor to fill in the info (what has gone into house) and get the supervising engineer/Architect to countersign that this spec is correct.

topcatcbr

bbam wrote: »

Friend in the midlands has arranged a BER cert for his house which is for sale (~8 years old). Assessor isn't visiting the house... Just issuing the cert on the spec given by the vendor over phone..
Surely this is a shocking abuse..
Hopefully spot checks will stop this type of thing..

This should show up as existing homes are not yet part of the scheme. and the MPRN will show the age of the home.

bbam

topcatcbr wrote: »

This should show up as existing homes are not yet part of the scheme. and the MPRN will show the age of the home.

Will be issued in Jan 09..

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

Personally I get the contractor to fill in the info (what has gone into house) and get the supervising engineer/Architect to countersign that this spec is correct.

thats all fine and well when there is a 'supervising' engineer / architect...

in most situations there wont be that level of supevision as to ensure thermal bridging factors, heating controls, thermostats, interlock, etc

and to bbam, yes, it is absolutely shocking if an assessor is doing an assessmnet on an existing house without a site visit.... cowboy!

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats all fine and well when there is a 'supervising' engineer / architect...

in most situations there wont be that level of supevision as to ensure thermal bridging factors, heating controls, thermostats, interlock, etc

Someone has to issue cert of complience/stage payment verifying some level of supervision.

I dont see any better way but im always open to suggestions.
BTW the fee for BER is not nearly enough to cover several site visits.

Chimpster

sydthebeat wrote: »

it is absolutely shocking if an assessor is doing an assessmnet on an existing house without a site visit.... cowboy!

Suprise Suprise.

I have been asked to re assess a house that a cert had been produced for already. Its looking like i'll be dropping the rating by over 32 kWh/m2/yr from what it was originally rated at!

Heating Controls wrong, Insulation spec wrong, Glazing spec wrong, lighting spec wrong...

The nod and the wink is still alive and well in post celtic tiger Ireland!

Chimpster

topcatcbr wrote: »

BTW the fee for BER is not nearly enough to cover several site visits.

Well you'll be glad to know that Matt Cooper quoted a €500 euro charge on Today FM yesterday evening. But in reality that only covers one site visit within a 40 mile radius.

topcatcbr

Chimpster wrote: »

Suprise Suprise.

I have been asked to re assess a house that a cert had been produced for already. Its looking like i'll be dropping the rating by over 32 kWh/m2/yr from what it was originally rated at!

Heating Controls wrong, Insulation spec wrong, Glazing spec wrong, lighting spec wrong...

The nod and the wink is still alive and well in post celtic tiger Ireland!

Who asked you to re assess the home was it SEI. If so it shows some level of supervision.

Chimpster

topcatcbr wrote: »

Who asked you to re assess the home was it SEI. If so it shows some level of supervision.

No, it was a potential purchaser of the house.

topcatcbr

Chimpster wrote: »

Well you'll be glad to know that Matt Cooper quoted a €500 euro charge on Today FM yesterday evening. But in reality that only covers one site visit within a 40 mile radius.

Id question the value of a single site visit. But it seems a reasonable quote for this.

topcatcbr

I have heard of a small number of cases where SEI have audited a BER and found significant discrepencies. They got another Assessor to complete a second assessment and charged this to the first incompetent one.

No6

Chimpster wrote: »

Suprise Suprise.

I have been asked to re assess a house that a cert had been produced for already. Its looking like i'll be dropping the rating by over 32 kWh/m2/yr from what it was originally rated at!

Heating Controls wrong, Insulation spec wrong, Glazing spec wrong, lighting spec wrong...

The nod and the wink is still alive and well in post celtic tiger Ireland!

Was that a preliminary or a final cert that you are redoing.?

Chimpster

No6 wrote: »

Was that a preliminary or a final cert that you are redoing.?

House completed about 6 months. So its a final BER Cert I've been asked to carry out.

No6

Sorry Chimpster I meant the original cert, was that a preliminary (ie aspirational and based on a specificaion) or a final cert.

demoreino

hi all,
i was wondering is there an expiry date for the certs.by this i mean if i get a BER cert for rental property ,when will i need to update it....after each letting,after 1,2 or 3 years.sorry if this sounds silly but surely the rating i receive on 1st jan 2009 will be different to a rating i would receive on 1st jan 2014 or 2019.