Athiesm and Skeptisism in General.

oeb

Galvasean wrote: »

As opposed to religious folk who all taste the same, like sheep.

There seems to be alot of discussion about this, and I would simply like to respond with the following:

Is it not Christians who liken themselves to sheep? Who describe Jesus as a shepherd? What is a flock but a gathering of sheep?

Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd:
He gathers the lambs in his arms
and carries them close to his heart;
he gently leads those that have young.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Need I go on?

Goduznt Xzst

Zillah wrote: »

How very odd. Would the benefits of such therapies not be better explained as a coming from simple placebo effects and relaxation rather than requiring the assumption of a scientifically invisible "lifeforce"...?

I'm as big a skeptic as the next guy and don't easily fall into believing something because I'm told to. I've already been told that I could never be hypnotized. I initially went to have acupuncture because I pulled my hamstring playing soccer and a friend there said his father could give me a free acupuncture session. I agreed purely out of curiosity, I would never of paid for such a procedure. So I went in skeptical.

One thing I did notice is that I always have a pain in my lower back, regardless of if I'm lying down, sitting, walking... the pain is always there. I let the acupuncturist know this and they went on about something about a knot of Qi, or the Qi not flowing... something to that effect, I wasn't really paying attention due to the pain in my hamstring.

What I did notice however was that as soon she put the needles in along my back there was absolutely no pain. I don't think I've ever felt that before, even on painkillers there has always been a slight ache there. My hamstring also healed in record time, compared to when I pulled it last.

On this personal experience and from reading up on it, it changed my opinion enough to be open to the ideas behind it.

Have a read of this:
http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28529

Imo though, a scientific mind that does not have imagination, is mainly just a storage device to pass on the ideas and opinions of others who do have imagination.

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. ~ Einstein

pH

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. ~ Einstein

what did he know!

Myksyk

This is an interesting article on accupuncture from the Skeptic website.

Goduznt Xzst

pH wrote: »

what did he know!

Did you read the last paragraph? Einstein is a great example of a true scientist, someone who dreams a lot, is seldom right but ends his life with a spattering of true moments of pure genius.

I remember my Physics teacher in school opening in first year with the words "If you aren't ready to make mistakes, and make many of them, then you aren't ready to make anything at all, this is what science and physics is all about"

ChocolateSauce

Atheism and skepticism do not go hand in hand, I think. Skepticism, among self-described "skeptics" (like myself) is about rationally and scientifically evaluating evidence for claims.

Too many scientists are not skeptical IMO. Many skeptics are not atheists also.

midlandsmissus

oeb wrote: »

Hi, I was wondering about something this morning. I am an athiest, I do not believe in any form of supernatural creator, but this skeptisim also expands to other parts of my life. I also do not believe in psycics (including mediums), hypnotism, ghosts, UFO abductions, that crop circles are the work of aliens, Big Foot, the loch ness monster, etc. And I was wondering are there people out there who do not believe in a supernatural 'god' but do believe in let's say, ghosts. Does your skeptisim allow you to see how illogicial one thing is, while something else that is just as illogicial seems all the more real to you?

On the other side of things, are you religious but you think that people who believe in these other things are nit-wits? Why do you think one of the things from this list is superstitious nonsense, yet another is all to real?

I think it would be very interesting to hear how other people relate these things (I see it all as superstition, and I will remain standing at that side of the fence until enough reliable scientific evidence is collected to disprove my beliefs, and then I will happilly admit I was wrong.)

I think it also depends alot if you're from the city or the country. There is a huge folklore in the country about fairies/aliens. I know older people who remember liittle boys being dressed up as girls as boys were constantly going missing.
I know hardened farmers who have experienced crazy thing in fields, such as tractors cutting out, the exit out of the field disappearing, time going by too fast etc. Oh another one, was this man was just walking through a field when all of a sudden a huge swirling hole appeared in the ground in front of him, he nearly fell in, and then it disappeared.
I know people who saw a huge light around a house, they thought it was on fire and went out to help (this was in the country so miles from anywhere), when they got there it was just a big ring of light arround the house. Next thing they remember they were in bed in their own house(miles away).
I know so many strange stories i couldnt recount half of them.
Now i'm not saying for definite all these things have happened, but im saying that maybe people out in the country would be more susceptible to believing these types of things as it is history and folklore around there.

Valmont

say what you will about acupuncture, it most definitely has anesthetic properties. Empirically supported and validated too. I should know, I'm cramming for my final in biological psych that is in...8 hours!

As for it helping people give up smoking etc... that's a load of nonsense.

rockbeer

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I think it also depends alot if you're from the city or the country...

One word for you: Poitín

pH

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I know hardened farmers who have experienced crazy thing in fields, such as tractors cutting out, the exit out of the field disappearing, time going by too fast etc. Oh another one, was this man was just walking through a field when all of a sudden a huge swirling hole appeared in the ground in front of him, he nearly fell in, and then it disappeared.

Why is it that for nearly all religious posters in A&A, if you wait long enough a post like this seems inevitable?

oeb

pH wrote: »

Why is it that for nearly all religious posters in A&A, if you wait long enough a post like this seems inevitable?

It's our very own version of Godwin's Law. I think we should call it "pH's Law"

pH's Law wrote:

As an A&A discussion grows longer, the probability of someone going off on a tangent about farmers and faries approaches one.

fatmammycat

I'm from the country and I've never heard any such thing. Honestly when anecdotal hocus pocus gets served up as 'evidence' of things other worldly it's time to get serious. Where are the newspaper reports of all these happenings? The oddly dressed missing children and appearing/disappearing holes?
This is exactly like Gareth claiming he 'knew ' of an exorcism but when pulled on it started back peddling until the story became 'a friend of a family he knew.'
I remember having to bite my tongue one day stuck listening to some guy tellng his friends about a woman he knew who 'could not walk in her whole life' being wheeled into the water at Lourdes and LO! she walked again.
Not one of his friends contradicted him or asked was this 'miracle' in the papers, as surely such amazing 'proof' would be spouted from unhigh. Yet you can be sure these people will recount the same story at some point in the future as fact.
Bah.

robindch

fatmammycat wrote: »

I'm from the country and I've never heard any such thing.

I grew up in the 70's in Kerry and there were stories like that doing the rounds, but I don't think that anybody over the age of ten and under the age of seventy worried about them too much! Even if everybody did know about them.

fatmammycat wrote: »

such amazing 'proof' would be spouted from unhigh.

"Unhigh" -- wonderful

midlandsmissus

pH wrote: »

Why is it that for nearly all religious posters in A&A, if you wait long enough a post like this seems inevitable?

Really? Interesting. I can't lie and say I didn't hear all those things growing up. It was as normal as anything to me to hear them. Obviously you wouldn't believe everything you hear, and you wouldn't think much of it either.

Hmmm maybe that could be a new study. Maybe if you grow up hearing all these 'otherworldy' stories you're more likely to turn to religion than people who didn't hear them. Because religion isn't a big step away for these people than other stuff theyve heard. I wouldn't say I went round thinking much at all about these kind of stories growing up, they'd go into my mind and out of them straight away again if i heard them.

If you think that is the case (that these kind of people are more likely to turn to religion)surely you (as an atheist) can't blame the person themselves then for 'being illogical'? (I'm using quotation marks just to show I dont personally believe it's illogical to believe in god, not to sound rude) After all their history has played a factor.

Poppy78

RE Acupuncture - A friend of mine is a physiotherapist in a hospital in Scotland and she often uses acupuncture as a means of pain management. She is an atheist and studied science for years. She doesn't go on about all the Qi stuff and admits it is probably just down to the placebo effect but she has seen quite good results.

I am an atheist and I buy aromatherapy oils and am absolutely terrified watching horror films or hearing ghost stories. I think if you delve deeply enough you will find conflicting, irrational beliefs in even the most hard hearted skeptic.

ChocolateSauce

Unhigh - sceptics and their science.

High = mystics and their nonsense.

JohnGalt

I find it very annoying when I encounter somebody who is an atheist but then holds a whole host of ridiculous beliefs and yet still has the nerve to look exasperatedly at theists. Bill Maher is a prime example of somebody like this. He is an atheist, and a particularly vocal one at that, but he doesn't believe in Western (read: real) medicine. I am an atheist, but only because I apply rational thinking that I try use in general to the idea of religion. The idea of an atheist who is a believe in psychics or alien abduction or 911 conspiracy theories is probably more annoying to me than a theist who believes in those sort of things. It is irksome because you can see that they have the tools, they just aren't using them.

fatmammycat

John pull up a stool, you can sit by me. We can drink rum and shake our heads a lot.

JohnGalt

fatmammycat wrote: »

John pull up a stool, you can sit by me. We can drink rum and shake our heads a lot.

I can't, I...have to......go over there

robindch

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Unhigh - sceptics and their science

At the risk of seeming to miss the point completely...

In Plato's Republic, "up"/ascent is associated with philosophy, education, truth and honor while "down"/descent associates with politics, ignorance, deceit and power. "unhigh" seems to describe pretty well the ethics of people who deliver their thoughts from "on high".

P'raps I should have kept quiet

lostexpectation

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I think it also depends alot if you're from the city or the country. There is a huge folklore in the country about fairies/aliens. I know older people who remember liittle boys being dressed up as girls as boys were constantly going missing.
I know hardened farmers who have experienced crazy thing in fields, such as tractors cutting out, the exit out of the field disappearing, time going by too fast etc. Oh another one, was this man was just walking through a field when all of a sudden a huge swirling hole appeared in the ground in front of him, he nearly fell in, and then it disappeared.

did you ever think it might be a story to remind you to watch where your walking in fields, you might step in rabbit hole or something, the jews and muslims have this story about not eating pig for some strange reason.

midlandsmissus

lostexpectation wrote: »

did you ever think it might be a story to remind you to watch where your walking in fields, you might step in rabbit hole or something, the jews and muslims have this story about not eating pig for some strange reason.

That's a point that they could be stories to warn children. But if I asked these people the same thing now, as an adult myself, they would recount the same stories. I think it's more tradition than anything, really.

@fatmammycat, sorry for generalising, I should have said 'some rural areas'

lostexpectation

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That's a point that they could be stories to warn children. But if I asked these people the same thing now, as an adult myself, they would recount the same stories. I think it's more tradition than anything, really.

and your inquiring mind would ask them what they thought the stories were really about, and you might consider some other good books which just realy traditions and advice and nothing more.

Mrmoe

People are inherently gullible and fallible. I am an atheist, a sceptic and a scientist. Being a sceptic means that I must be sceptical of myself. I am by no means perfect and I respond irrationally at times. If someone asked me to smash a mirror I would be hesitant. I know rationally that I will not receive seven years of bad luck but I still would not do it. I would have to force myself to do it. I would not walk under a ladder but instead walk around it. These are just artefacts of our evolutionary history and take time to dispense with as they are hard wired deep within us due to our cultural upbringing. Quite often certain supernatural beliefs would have had a benefit to our existence in the past and this holds true for religion as well. We should always aim to be sceptical but that includes being sceptical of our own scepticism.

midlandsmissus

lostexpectation wrote: »

and your inquiring mind would ask them what they thought the stories were really about, and you might consider some other good books which just realy traditions and advice and nothing more.

and your inquiring mind would ask them what they thought the stories were really about,

Of course I've asked them that. And these people would still come out with the 'fairies, aliens, magic' side of it. There's no arguing with them. They are sure about what they've seen. This would be the older generation now, so i'm not going to argue with them and work them up into a state am I!

lostexpectation

midlandsmissus wrote: »

and your inquiring mind would ask them what they thought the stories were really about,

Of course I've asked them that. And these people would still come out with the 'fairies, aliens, magic' side of it. There's no arguing with them. They are sure about what they've seen. This would be the older generation now, so i'm not going to argue with them and work them up into a state am I!

why not its would insulting to presume their crazy, i don't think old people like to be pandered too.



but thank god your of such more reasonable mind eh?

midlandsmissus

lostexpectation wrote: »

why not its would insulting to presume their crazy, i don't think old people like to be pandered too.



but thank god your of such more reasonable mind eh?

lostexpectation this has to be the fourth thread you've come on and devolved it into personally insulting me.

What is your problem? If you're that bothered by me, just leave me alone.

lostexpectation

midlandsmissus wrote: »

lostexpectation this has to be the fourth thread you've come on and devolved it into personally insulting me.

What is your problem? If you're that bothered by me, just leave me alone.

your the one keeps coming in here waffling about god and faith and fairies and then when questioned on what you say simply moan about being picked on.

this is what this thread is about, people saying well i don't believe in that myth thats silly but i do believe this myth, so you tell a story about people believing in fairies to pretend your so much more sensible then them because you believe in a god.

you'll have to point out the personal insults

Dades

lostexpectation wrote:

and your inquiring mind would ask them what they thought the stories were really about, and you might consider some other good books which just realy traditions and advice and nothing more.

lostexpectation wrote:

but thank god your of such more reasonable mind eh?

lostexpectation wrote: »

this is what this thread is about, people saying well i don't believe in that myth thats silly but i do believe this myth, so you tell a story about people believing in fairies to pretend your so much more sensible then them because you believe in a god.

Midlandsmissus mentioned some folklore she's encountered, so you use it as a cue to start harassing her about Christianity? Your tone comes across as smug and tbh I don't blame her in the least for not wanting to entertain you.

midlandsmissus

Right lostepectation,

Here's a few insults I can point out in those two posts:

lostexpectation wrote: »

your the one keeps coming in here waffling about god and faith and fairies

That is totally ridiculous. This is a thread talking about skeptisim. The very first post mentions ghosts, bigfoot and the loch ness monster. So you really think that me talking about old country folklore is out of place? No it isn't, so you have jumped on me there for absolutely no reason.

lostexpectation wrote: »

so you tell a story about people believing in fairies to pretend your so much more sensible then them because you believe in a god.

hmmm "so you can pretend you're so much more sensible than them because you believe in a god". You're right that isn't personally insulting at all. How nice of you. Actually that makes me laugh. How can you make such a statement about some-one when you don't know them at all? Why did you jump to the conclusion that I like belittling people? Because I dont. so its a bit wierd you jumped to that conclusion. It says aLOT more about you than it does about me.
Let me tell you, I NEVER look down on anyone else, you're the one who is being extremely judgemental here.

lostexpectation wrote: »

but thank god your of such more reasonable mind eh? .

Right so you wouldnt call, telling me i'm not of reasonable mind, a personal insult? Cop on would you, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder.

and by the way, I don't like you either.....there are people on this forum who have a proper talk with me, and don't have to degenerate to "you're not of reasonable mind". you could really learn a thing or two from them.