Athiesm and Skeptisism in General.

oeb

Hi, I was wondering about something this morning. I am an athiest, I do not believe in any form of supernatural creator, but this skeptisim also expands to other parts of my life. I also do not believe in psycics (including mediums), hypnotism, ghosts, UFO abductions, that crop circles are the work of aliens, Big Foot, the loch ness monster, etc. And I was wondering are there people out there who do not believe in a supernatural 'god' but do believe in let's say, ghosts. Does your skeptisim allow you to see how illogicial one thing is, while something else that is just as illogicial seems all the more real to you?

On the other side of things, are you religious but you think that people who believe in these other things are nit-wits? Why do you think one of the things from this list is superstitious nonsense, yet another is all to real?

I think it would be very interesting to hear how other people relate these things (I see it all as superstition, and I will remain standing at that side of the fence until enough reliable scientific evidence is collected to disprove my beliefs, and then I will happilly admit I was wrong.)

Zamboni

Rational or irrational are the only two options as far as I am concerned.

But I do have a soft spot for 'Nessie'.

--amadeus--

Some habits are hard to break - my wife scoffs at me for being a hard core anti-religionist who counts magpies and throws salt over his shoulder

I would imagine most athieists are skeptics - rationality doesn't take exceptions!

andy1249

Hypnotism does not belong on that list !

Abraham

The druids and druidism are seriously in retreat here tho, ' aren't they ?
Greater liberalism and unbridled scepticism has cooked their goose but they will fight a spirited rearguard action as they go. There are no ghosts in my world, only the walking wounded.

Mena

oeb wrote: »

Hi, I was wondering about something this morning. I am an athiest, I do not believe in any form of supernatural creator, but this skeptisim also expands to other parts of my life. I also do not believe in psycics (including mediums), hypnotism, ghosts, UFO abductions, that crop circles are the work of aliens, Big Foot, the loch ness monster, etc. And I was wondering are there people out there who do not believe in a supernatural 'god' but do believe in let's say, ghosts. Does your skeptisim allow you to see how illogicial one thing is, while something else that is just as illogicial seems all the more real to you?

On the other side of things, are you religious but you think that people who believe in these other things are nit-wits? Why do you think one of the things from this list is superstitious nonsense, yet another is all to real?

I think it would be very interesting to hear how other people relate these things (I see it all as superstition, and I will remain standing at that side of the fence until enough reliable scientific evidence is collected to disprove my beliefs, and then I will happilly admit I was wrong.)

Pretty much with you except for the UFO bit. They're out there, they have to be. However I doubt they've ever been here, or ever will while we survive as a species.

oeb

andy1249 wrote: »

Hypnotism does not belong on that list !

I would not be so sure about that, although this may not be the place to discuss it.

Mena wrote:

Pretty much with you except for the UFO bit. They're out there, they have to be. However I doubt they've ever been here, or ever will while we survive as a species.

Don't get me wrong, I am not denying the possibility of extra-terrestial life, that is certainly a statisticial possibility. I am refering more to the whole little green men running around the USA with anal probes.

Whispered

Don't believe in God, do believe in souls. Work that one out

EDIT: I actually know a psychic who is athiest

oeb

helena.ryan wrote: »

Don't believe in God, do believe in souls. Work that one out

EDIT: I actually know a psychic who is athiest

Do you know a psychic who is an athiest, or do you know an athiest who thinks he is a psychic? What's your stand on the matter?

Whispered

Nah he's psychic. For definate. But me telling you how I know this will instantly be dismissed so I wont bother. <- not being a bitch, but I could say "a ghost came up to me and hit me between the eyes" and I would be told that it's inconclusive without proof, which is fair enough.

BTW: I don't mean pyschic as in "wooooo let me tell your future"

My stance, I don't believe in God, I do believe in other things that supposedly rational minds would not. I don't feel the need to ram these beliefs down others throats, nor do I feel the need to be correct over someone elses belief. Personally, I think there is way too much out there for any one religion or belief system to be totally correct.

oeb

helena.ryan wrote: »

Nah he's psychic. For definate. But me telling you how I know this will instantly be dismissed so I wont bother. <- not being a bitch, but I could say "a ghost came up to me and hit me between the eyes" and I would be told that it's inconclusive without proof, which is fair enough.

BTW: I don't mean pyschic as in "wooooo let me tell your future"

My stance, I don't believe in God, I do believe in other things that supposedly rational minds would not. I don't feel the need to ram these beliefs down others throats, nor do I feel the need to be correct over someone elses belief. Personally, I think there is way too much out there for any one religion or belief system to be totally correct.

Out of intrest, why don't you believe in a god? Do you see it as illogicial? Is it due to personal experience (for example, your prayers were not answered, you lost someone you knew etc). I am not here to correct you, I just find it intresting having a bit of insight into how other people think.

Would you mind clarifing what you mean as a psychic so? Do you refer to some form of esp, IE (being able to tell what Zenner card is being held, that kinda thing), or do you refer to something like a medium who can talk to the dead?

For the record, my girlfriend takes a similar view. She told me once that she did not believe in god, and then asked me about my athiesm. She asked me what happens when you die, and I responded that 'You rot. That's it, you cease to exist.', she told me that she believes that you go to 'heaven' (I enclose it because I dont really mean heaven in the biblicial sense, she was refering to the general concept of some place your 'spirt' survives after your body dies). I personally know more than one person who has similar beliefs when it comes to this, and I believe that they are firmly rooted in a simple fear of death. But your comment about believing in souls made me think of them.

pH

andy1249 wrote: »

Hypnotism does not belong on that list !

It's interesting that a lot of quite rational people have fallen for the nonsense of hypnotism. It's probably the "most common" untrue thing believed true by skeptics.

http://skepdic.com/hypnosis.html

Whispered

oeb wrote: »

Out of intrest, why don't you believe in a god? Do you see it as illogicial? Is it due to personal experience (for example, your prayers were not answered, you lost someone you knew etc). I am not here to correct you, I just find it intresting having a bit of insight into how other people think.

.

No, it's nothing to do with anything happening to me at all. I think it's more to do with the fact that a big white arab man, omnipotent etc etc is very obviously the invention of Man. Of course god is going to be described in mans image, man knows nothing else.

oeb wrote: »

Would you mind clarifing what you mean as a psychic so? Do you refer to some form of esp, IE (being able to tell what Zenner card is being held, that kinda thing), or do you refer to something like a medium who can talk to the dead?

I'll clarify, but will not go on to defend myself on this point, I'm in the athiest forum after all, so can expect some rolled eyes for this. I'll give you a bit of his background. Firstly (this story is one I heard) his mother came the sitting room, and he was sitting on the chair, she went up stairs to his room, putting clothes away or whatever, he was fast asleep in bed. She woke him up, he told her he had been dreaming of being downstairs watching TV. Another time they had gone on hols, when they came back a neighbour wanted to know who was looking after him, as she saw him a few times looking out the window. <-so this apparently is how it started, I'm not saying I believe this - just giving you his background.

I don't know much about his childhood, or teen years, when he met his wife, she got to know him as a completly normal person. It was only a while into their relationship when they moved in together she noticed the poltergiest type activity, trying to get his attention. He claims to speak to the dead, he does not do this for money.

He is utterly convinced that there is no god

oeb wrote: »

For the record, my girlfriend takes a similar view. She told me once that she did not believe in god, and then asked me about my athiesm. She asked me what happens when you die, and I responded that 'You rot. That's it, you cease to exist.', she told me that she believes that you go to 'heaven' (I enclose it because I dont really mean heaven in the biblicial sense, she was refering to the general concept of some place your 'spirt' survives after your body dies). I personally know more than one person who has similar beliefs when it comes to this, and I believe that they are firmly rooted in a simple fear of death. But your comment about believing in souls made me think of them.

Yes I do believe this, I don't know if I believe you survive as a single entity or if you're "recycled" as such back into life. My mind keeps changing on that one.

Malari

I would say I'm pretty rational for all those things you mention, OP. I am not superstitious either. Have to say, I don't know anything about hypnotism, but would be very suspicious!

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oeb wrote: »

Does your skeptisim allow you to see how illogicial one thing is, while something else that is just as illogicial seems all the more real to you?

I was thinking about something very similar recently. I'm 30 now and I've been an atheist for 16 years. For the last 16 years I've become more and more rational. As a teenager in school we were warned to stay away from ouija boards. Since then, I've had a fear of them and I said I would never do one, just to be on the safe side (a bit like Pascals wager). I used to say this even as an atheist ... go figure!

However, having thought about this some more, I would have no problem doing a ouija board now ... I now realise it would just be a bit of fun.

Anyone else have an irrational fear of ouija boards?

oeb

pH wrote: »

It's interesting that a lot of quite rational people have fallen for the nonsense of hypnotism. It's probably the "most common" untrue thing believed true by skeptics.

http://skepdic.com/hypnosis.html

I know, very strange. Some of the smartest people I know scoff at esp, and ghosts, yet firmly believe that hypnotism is real science.


And helena.ryan, this thread is not about attacking you or your beliefs. I completely agree with you that this is not the place to directly discuss anything relating to the paranormal etc. As I said, I'm just interested to see if and why people can accept one unproven and unrealistic thing as fact while seeing another one as fallacy.

Sorry if it feels like I am focusing on you, but you are giving the most information here, and I just want a clearer idea. "He claims to speak to dead people". Do you think he speaks to dead people?

Do you believe that there is a creator of some kind? A force or being that started everything? Would you maybe consider yourself to be more of a Deist than an athiest?

Mena

oeb wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I am not denying the possibility of extra-terrestial life, that is certainly a statisticial possibility. I am refering more to the whole little green men running around the USA with anal probes.

I dunno tbh, how else do we explain George Bush? :pac:

Galvasean

I'm fairly skeptical to pretty much anything I hear about, whether it be ghosts, Nessie (I really wanted to believe but alas if you look at the data...), ouija boards etc.
The only 'supernatural' thing I give any time to is aliens and certain cryptids (animals which are not currently recognized as existing by mainstream science). Of course these would all have to have perfectly natural explanaitions, therefore not making them supernatural.
For the record most 'alien encounters' can be dismissed quite easily and don't get me started on the whole 'rekindling suppressed memories through hypnosis' thing...

Whispered

Yeah, I talk too much

I do believe he speaks to the dead TBH, or at least communicates with something outside my understanding. The night his brother died in an accident he woke up screaming his name, before the accident happened.

As for my belief, it's hard for me to fully explain. I don't believe in a god, or a force which has thoughts and actions as we do.

Aliens are not supernatural.

oeb

Galvasean, which cryptids specificially? Is it a case of you belive there may be some random species of lets say, spider, living in South Americia that they do not know about? Or do you believe that there is giant cats roaming around the english countryside?

Dave!

I guess my skepticism extends to religion and is probably the reason I'm an atheist. Now that I think of it, I was skeptical about eg. ghosts, before I even gave religion much thought. My mates (one in particular) all believed in it when we were kids, and they would often claim to see things or have some sort of wierd feeling. They all believe in ouijia boards and the likes too.

My mate now calls me Scully on account of the fact that I still don't believe in that stuff

andy1249

I know, very strange. Some of the smartest people I know scoff at esp, and ghosts, yet firmly believe that hypnotism is real science.

You need to research a bit more , there are many many clinical studies showing it to be a very real benefit ,

Heres one of many examples

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/25/AR2008092501351.html

Galvasean

oeb wrote: »

Galvasean, which cryptids specificially? Is it a case of you belive there may be some random species of lets say, spider, living in South Americia that they do not know about? Or do you believe that there is giant cats roaming around the english countryside?

Well I certainly wouldn't extend my open-mindedness to stuff like El Chupacabras or Mokele-mbembe.
What I find interesting is how certain cryptids like the mountain gorilla and giant squid (albeit not as fanciful as described in folklore) showed up to reveal themselves to the world.
To that end I'd say there could be an element of truth to many such creatures.
For example: I wouldn't be too suprised if a large species of ground sloth (presumed to be extinct) showed up in the near future.

Galvasean

Dave! wrote: »

or have some sort of wierd feeling.

So many episodes of most Haunted and not a single ghost, just lots of "weird feelings". Get this, you're in an old run down house. It's cold and dark. Of course you feel weird!

Dave! wrote: »

They all believe in ouijia boards and the likes too.

I also believe in ouijia boards. I just don't believe that they work.

oeb

andy1249 wrote: »

You need to research a bit more , there are many many clinical studies showing it to be a very real benefit ,

Heres one of many examples

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/25/AR2008092501351.html

I am very read up on it. I am just of the (informed) opinion, that in a medicial sense, hypnotism is no more than an elaborate placebo.

In the stage sense, it's complete hogwash too (even more so).

mathias

When a study published by the American cancer journal shows a 68% benefit due to Hypnotism then you sit up and take notice ,

That is after all what science is right , you test it and examine the results ... there should be no opinions involved , it either works or it doesnt ... this isnt a study carried out by a lot of new age quacks !

But since the control group received no treatment, it's difficult to say whether some or even all of the improvement represents a "placebo effect," Gansler noted. "However, the researchers reasonably suggest that the improvement is so substantial that it is unlikely to be due entirely to a placebo effect," he said.

At the very least , its something worth more investigation and is not to be dismissed along with UFO's and lake monsters.

Dave!

Galvasean wrote: »

So many episodes of most Haunted and not a single ghost, just lots of "weird feelings". Get this, you're in an old run down house. It's cold and dark. Of course you feel weird!.

Yeah, I'm just waiting for one of them to suggest "if you don't believe in ghosts, then you won't have any problem staying in this old hotel, filled with dead bodies, after you've watched the Shining............."

Galvasean wrote: »

I also believe in ouijia boards. I just don't believe that they work.

No no, they don't exist

oeb

mathias wrote: »

When a study published by the American cancer journal shows a 68% benefit due to Hypnotism then you sit up and take notice ,

That is after all what science is right , you test it and examine the results ... there should be no opinions involved , it either works or it doesnt ... this isnt a study carried out by a lot of new age quacks !



At the very least , its something worth more investigation and is not to be dismissed along with UFO's and lake monsters.

So, hypnosis, something that only works if you believe in it, and it's medicial benifits. That about exactly fits the definition of a placebo (see below). That of course means that a placebo can not be used as a control in the experement. Also, 60 people, assigned into two groups, lets assume the groups are even, so 30 people were hypnotised. That's not a very large test group.

placebo effect
n. The beneficial effect in a patient following a particular treatment that arises from the patient's expectations concerning the treatment rather than from the treatment itself.

mathias

So, hypnosis, something that only works if you believe in it, and it's medicial benifits.

Thats your definition , no one elses , and that study is just one of many recently , all showing some impressive results ,

I dont consider " belief " in anything to be part of a clinical study and neither do any of the studies carried out , if the American cancer society or any other scientific based group are ready to do research into the subject based on real objective results then thats good enough for me ,

If the Data is good its good , brushing off results like the ones published based on your own personal pre formed opinions is not good science ...

And by the way , I wouldnt go to Paul Mckenna for information on hypnotism any more than I'd watch a series of Heroes for information on Evolution.

oeb

mathias wrote: »

Thats your definition , no one elses , and that study is just one of many recently , all showing some impressive results ,

I dont consider " belief " in anything to be part of a clinical study and neither do any of the studies carried out , if the American cancer society or any other scientific based group are ready to do research into the subject based on real objective results then thats good enough for me ,

If the Data is good its good , brushing off results like the ones published based on your own personal pre formed opinions is not good science ...

And by the way , I wouldnt go to Paul Mckenna for information on hypnotism any more than I'd watch a series of Heroes for information on Evolution.

Now, I will happilly admit that most of my experience of hypnotism comes from the stage side of it rather than the medicial side. Where most of my knowlege on the medicial side of it comes from however is a discussion I had with my uncle (Who is a very respected Neurologist). At the time, while he believed there was some merit in hypnotism, he also informed me that someone could not be hypnotised against their will. This is something I have heard repeatadly from non-medicial hypnotists too (from stage to stop-smoking), and it is a primary discussion point in all the books I have read on the subject.


Now, you can't be willing to by hypnotised if you believe there is no such thing.

mathias

Now, you can't be willing to by hypnotised if you believe there is no such thing.

Even if you dont believe it will work there is nothing to stop anyone from submitting to the session.
Your logic there doesnt follow ... I think what is meant by " you cant hypnotise some against their will " is more along the lines of some who refuses to be hypnotised as opposed to someone who doesnt believe in it.