Now Schumacher's been caught

Chips Lovell

Funkyzeit wrote: »

El Tonto - do you know if and when they'll be releasing the other names of the other CERA riders? I'd love to have a guess

Some time during the coming week I believe. There's a few names floating around already, but I've no idea if they're correct or not.

Funkyzeit

el tonto wrote: »

Some time during the coming week I believe. There's a few names floating around already, but I've no idea if they're correct or not.

I've heard a couple mentioned alright...Danka !

stopped_clock

Link to an article in the Economist (of all places) discussing gene doping, including a suggestion that a drug with the "gene for EPO" has been in circulation since '06 at least. I presume this causes the body to produce more natural EPO rather than introducing synthetic EPO.

Is there ever any sanction taken against the doctors?

Diarmuid

el tonto wrote: »

Some time during the coming week I believe. There's a few names floating around already, but I've no idea if they're correct or not.

WARNING: Speculation ahead

I'm putting my money on a rider who's name rhymes with Bohl...

tunney

Diarmuid wrote: »

WARNING: Speculation ahead

I'm putting my money on a rider who's name rhymes with Bohl...

*AG2R: Valjavec plus 1 rider from: (Efimkin, Dessel, Arrieta, Dupont, Elmiger, Gadret, Goubert of Riblon)

*Saunier Duval: Ricco, Piepoli en Cobo

*Team Columbia: Two riders from: (Kirchen, Hincapie, Burghardt, Cavendish, Ciolek, Eisel, Hansen, Lovkvist of Siutsou)

*CSC: Five riders from: (Cancellara, Fränk Schleck, Andy Schleck, O'Grady, Voigt, Gustov, Sastre, Arvesen of Sörensen)

*Gerolsteiner: Two riders from: (Schumacher, Kohl, Förster, Fothen, Haussler, Krauss, Lang, Scholz of Wegmann)

Team Test Cervelo was only set up because Cervelo realised how many of the CSC lads were on the juice. The so called clean team of Columbia yielding two positives will be devastating to cycing.

Chips Lovell

The net widens. According to Velonews, the IOC are going to retest samples from the Olympics with this new test.

Diarmuid

I'd rate myself as pretty cynical but I didn't think that many riders would have been so dumb. I hope Sastre isn't one.

tunney

Diarmuid wrote: »

I'd rate myself as pretty cynical but I didn't think that many riders would have been so dumb. I hope Sastre isn't one.

If you accept the argument that the whole reason for Team Test Cervelo was to remove the association between Cervelo the brand and the dirty riders on CSC-Saxobank then you could make the argument that Sastre win in the TdF was done clean. He only had two good days - the stage in the Alps where his VAM was less than 1700 on that climb (Armstrong era is over 1800) and the final time trial, nothing spectular and nothing "too good to be true". Its a credible win.

TinyExplosions

tunney wrote: »

Its a credible win.

Why is there a part of me that wants him to test positive, just cos you've said that

Seriously though, I think he won it clean myself -he had the best team that helped him over the harder days, and as Tunney said only had a couple of good days himself

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Why is there a part of me that wants him to test positive, just cos you've said that

Seriously though, I think he won it clean myself -he had the best team that helped him over the harder days, and as Tunney said only had a couple of good days himself

Does it detract from Sastre's win if some of the CSC boys have positive tests?
After all, it's a team event.

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

Does it detract from Sastre's win if some of the CSC boys have positive tests?
After all, it's a team event.

I'd have to say 'no' -the cynic in me would think that maybe he knew his team were doping, and kept clean to use all the benefits they could give him, and still 'win clean' -but I'm going with the hope that he just rode his race and won, regardless of what the others were doing

Chips Lovell

I know his name has been floated by the rumour mill in connection to this investigation, but to be honest, Sastre is one of the few top level riders I'd be genuinely surprised by if he tested positive.

There's a few reasons for that. For start, he was Jimenez's brother-in-law and his death hit him pretty hard. The word is that he wanted nothing to do with the usual 'preparation' methods and has always done his own thing.

Secondly, he's been nothing but consistent. Every grand tour he rides, he's there or thereabouts and any improvement he's made over the past few years has been slow, painfully slow if anything. He doesn't ride like a doper, brilliant in one race, anonymous in the next. And he's never been one of those guys you see gliding up the mountains breathing through his nose. Even when he's going well he always looks like he's suffering like a dog.

Raam wrote: »

Does it detract from Sastre's win if some of the CSC boys have positive tests? After all, it's a team event.

To a certain extent yes. While he won the race on Alpe d'Huez, you would have to ask if would have gotten away without the work the team put in on the day and in the stages preceeding.

niceonetom

in a sport so sullied are there any riders left that you just can't imagine doping? who, if caught, would rob you of your last shred of hope, not just in cyling, but in sport, indeed in humanity itself? we all consider our selves fairly unshockable now, inured to the scandals and the shame of it, but really, what would it take to make you say "enough, this sport is broken"?

or do we just accept that there will always be a certain level of doping and containing the probelm is the best we can hope for?

and as for forthcoming revelations, has someone opened a book on this? I'll have a tenner each way on Voigt (too much time dragging the peleton up the alps for my liking, breaks me heart but - Fabi too btw), and everything else i own on Kohl.

i hope that sastre was clean/gets away with it, if only to avoid having to have that same goddam conversation with non-cyclists for whom "winner cheated" will be the only fact they have. again.

TinyExplosions

niceonetom wrote: »

who, if caught, would rob you of your last shred of hope, not just in cyling, but in sport, indeed in humanity itself?

Voight for me.... if he's caught, I'm just going to give up! I would put a tenner each way on him for much the same reasons as you, but it'd still hit hard if he's positive

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Voight for me.... if he's caught, I'm just going to give up! I would put a tenner each way on him for much the same reasons as you, but it'd still hit hard if he's positive

Not in the tour, but Nicholas Roche.

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

in a sport so sullied are there any riders left that you just can't imagine doping? who, if caught, would rob you of your last shred of hope, not just in cyling, but in sport, indeed in humanity itself?

Moncoutie

niceonetom wrote: »

or do we just accept that there will always be a certain level of doping and containing the probelm is the best we can hope for?

...

i hope that sastre was clean/gets away with it, if only to avoid having to have that same goddam conversation with non-cyclists for whom "winner cheated" will be the only fact they have. again.

I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that dope testing is still imperfect. You can't catch all of the cheaters all of the time. However, we are without doubt now catching more of the cheaters, more of the time.

To be honest, I think the PR efforts by the authorities and the teams create too much expectation of a clean sport. We're constantly hearing about how there's zero tolerance now to doping and how cyclists are the most tested athletes on the planet and this creates an expectation among the public that cycling is now clean. Hence the disappointment when another doper is caught. Yet the reality is that it's now much harder to cheat and get away with it and that you can no longer dope to the extent you could before.

The media doesn't help either. I think English language journalists either a.) only cover cycling occasionally and don't know enough about the sport or b.) love the access they get and the privilege of palling around with riders and directors that they don't ask enough hard questions.

Gavin

There's an interesting documentary called "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" I watched the other day. It's mainly about steroids and body building but is quite an interesting look at drugs in sports. Floyd Landis makes an appearance, as does gene doping.

Shows how doping is not just as black and white as people seem to generally view it.

tunney

niceonetom wrote: »

and as for forthcoming revelations, has someone opened a book on this? I'll have a tenner each way on Voigt (too much time dragging the peleton up the alps for my liking, breaks me heart but - Fabi too btw),

Yeah once Cancellera started climbing half way decently that was it.

Funkyzeit

Raam wrote: »

Not in the tour, but Nicholas Roche.

Hope you're wrong but watching him in the Vuelta was thinking the same...

Raam

Funkyzeit wrote: »

Hope you're wrong but watching him in the Vuelta was thinking the same...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing him of anything

sy

This is what makes the situation so sad, in that we can no longer trust the sport. Who is clean and who isn't. I was certain that the sport had turned a corner this year but when Ricco was caught in this years TDF I felt so angry :mad:, can we ever believe what we see in the future?
I have followed this sport avidly since the 1986 TDF. The epic duel between LeMond and Fignon in 1989 was one of the many highlights, but with the arrival of EPO in the early 90's the sport, especially the TDF become so predictable dare I say boring. Recently however, post Armstrong, the final result was a little less predictable. Guys were being dropped on climbs, some even looked like they were suffering etc. There was hope that the dopers were decreasing in number and the sport was gradually getting to grips with it. Alas no.
I know some boards members have just returned from riding these famous climbs, and they are by no means easy as I have been out there a few times myself. However to see these guys (from mid 90's on) racing up those slopes at speeds that just made me wonder what planet were they from . The times were incredible, think that Pantani's record for the Alpe d'Huez was faster than Armstrong's time trial, and that was at the end of a very difficult stage! I too began to believe that maybe they were super human but then when you love a sport so much it is very easy to be in denial. Hence my disgust when the " new generation of riders " Ricco etc were caught. I am so so angry that they are destroying this wonderful sport. Sorry for the rant.

petethedrummer

But there has always been doping, so I don't know why you're so upset. It seems that now it has return roughly to the 80's level. Where the advantage to taking something is not ENORMOUS but still there. And the very best clean riders can mix with the dopers. Unlike 1991-2006.

Vandevelde and Evans weren't far off the TDF win and both are clean (as far as my limited knowledge of cycling can tell).

quietobserver

littleknown wrote: »

the whole thing is a joke. nobody can be trusted. you cannot watch a stage win without asking if drugs were involved. im not confident the sport will ever be clean again "*"if it ever was?

how can these people cheat their own dreams?

are you under the impression that it was ever clean? no sport is, from tiddly winks to cycling inc all the Gaa sports, theres individuals looking for the edge, sure at the sydney olympics a survery showed that 98% of all competing athletes said they would take an illegal drug if it won them glory and they died within 10years. Competition by nature means success at every cost, golf will prob never throw up much positive results but doesnt mean its not going on.

cycling is a sport where catching the cheaters is much easier than alot of other sports due to the endurance level involved and the continous days of competition, its also used by other NGOs as a scape goat for taking the lime light off their cheaters.

i dont condone doping, but asside from the glory put yourself in the place of some of those riders, maybe the lesser known ones who get caught, often wife, kids morgages behind the scenes, wages arent super and the prospect of no job next year will make people find means of success im sure in some cases.

the sports getting cleaner, what it needs is not people to drop their head in disgust but take a stance and brush the cheaters aside, read some of the gerolsteiner interviews after the discovery of schumachers positive test, alot of them were disgusted by the fact he lied to them, the sport is making huge efforts and needs support not a turn of face. Get up on your bikes.

Junior

tunney wrote: »

*CSC: Five riders Cancellara, Fränk Schleck, Andy Schleck, O'Grady, Voigt,

That's what I've heard on the grapevine anyways ...

Raam

I found this tidbit over on Pez Cycling

It's not about this years tour, but I wonder how true it is...

Pantani Accusations Surface
Never far from the headlines when there is an anti-doping headline too be had, Ivano Fanini, head of the Amore e Vita cycling team, has taken aim at one of his country’s cycling icons, Marco Pantani.

Fanini has alleged in an interview with Italian newspaper La Stampa that at the 1998 Giro, Pantani was “using doping products every day” and was called to give a sample for the testers.

"He looked for somewhere where could find a negative sample [to swap with his] and found that his team mate Riccardo Forconi was [allegedly allegedly allegedly] the only member of the Mercantone Uno team who was clean that day,” said Fanini, “Forconi was caught [and kicked off the ’98 Giro for having a too high hematocrit] and not a long time later had a new villa in Tuscany. Forconi told me everything.”

While the allegations of a villa in exchange for a clean blood/urine sample may seem scandalous, 10 years on most Italians are likely to shrug their shoulders and move on. It will be interesting to see if Forconi will confirm the story when asked directly by the press.

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

I found this tidbit over on Pez Cycling

It's not about this years tour, but I wonder how true it is...

Read that too. Forconi was booted off the 2001 Giro too. Tested positive for EPO.

Raam

The president of Amore & Vita-McDonalds cycling team gives his candid views on doping, with a follow up from the teams Directeur Sportif...

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2008/10/6/629482/more-doping-news-from-ital

My favourite quote from the piece...

Let's make it clear for one last time. When someone in the know, like you, says that a rider is going to "refuel", does that mean that he is going to eat a jam sandwich or that he is going to take illegal drugs.

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

The president of Amore & Vita-McDonalds cycling team gives his candid views on doping, with a follow up from the teams Directeur Sportif...

Fanini's not afraid to point fingers alright.

Amore e Vita - McDonalds are probably the weirdest sponsor combo ever. Italian pro-life organisation and fast food chain.

Diarmuid

Raam wrote: »

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2008/10/6/629482/more-doping-news-from-ital

That's pretty damning. Don't think I'll bother following the cycling season next year, after cautiously coming back to the sport this year.

Raam

Diarmuid wrote: »

That's pretty damning. Don't think I'll bother following the cycling season next year, after cautiously coming back to the sport this year.

Hey, don't let it beat you.