Now Schumacher's been caught

SACH Central

Stefan Schimacher the man with possibly the biggest 'tete' in the peleton has tested positive for EPO, see below

http://velonews.com/article/84039/schumacher-tests-positive-for-epo

Is it too big of a conspiracy theory to think that the results of these tests are just being released now, months after the tour has ended. Just think what would have happened if all these positive test results were made public during the tour. Does/can the ASO wield enough power to delay the results. What is pretty much a global event/global news in July becomes just a 'small' cycling story in October. When you consider that the winners of 5 of the 21 stages have tested positive for EPO and also the fact that there appears to be a question mark over Cyril Dessel. And this was supposed to be the cleanest TDF in years.....

Raam

Gutted, again.

titan18

I knew that Schumacher was taking something.The best thign about it is they are catching a good few of them now.It will hopefully lead to less of them being stupid enough to take them as they're getting caught

ba

he performed really well in the tour. solo breaks, and both individual time trials, within days of one another. what a bummer. i feel deflated.

Chips Lovell

Schumacher's had questions over him for years and his performance in the Tour raised a lot of eyebrows. Funny thing is, if Gerolsteiner hadn't folded, he mightn't have had to go so hard, since he was in the market for a new team. I'm sure Patrick Lefevre is thrilled.

SACH Central wrote: »

Is it too big of a conspiracy theory to think that the results of these tests are just being released now, months after the tour has ended. Just think what would have happened if all these positive test results were made public during the tour. Does/can the ASO wield enough power to delay the results. What is pretty much a global event/global news in July becomes just a 'small' cycling story in October. When you consider that the winners of 5 of the 21 stages have tested positive for EPO and also the fact that there appears to be a question mark over Cyril Dessel. And this was supposed to be the cleanest TDF in years.....

I don't think there's any conspiracy. The current round of testing is a blood test for CERA. They only got the urine test up and running in time for the Tour and felt that it was returning a few inconclusive results. The blood test is only coming on stream now. From what I've read, the French lab and a lab in Lausanne have both developed a blood test and the current batch of samples were tested at both.

littleknown

the whole thing is a joke. nobody can be trusted. you cannot watch a stage win without asking if drugs were involved. im not confident the sport will ever be clean again "*"if it ever was?

how can these people cheat their own dreams?

Lumen

littleknown wrote: »

how can these people cheat their own dreams?

Because it works? Because "everyone else is"? Because the downside risks (ejection from the sport) are outweighed by the upside glory and doping appears preferable to the alternatives (retirement from the sport at the top level)?

tunney

ba wrote: »

he performed really well in the tour. solo breaks, and both individual time trials, within days of one another. what a bummer. i feel deflated.

Seriously. The fault for you feelnig deflated lies with yourself.

Anyone with a bit of cop on knew what was happening. His performances "seemed too good to be true". If you thought for one second he was clean during the tour then you, well..... you probably think LA was clean.

Good aspect of it was, in my mind, the damage he did to the rest of the peleton suggests that doping is either not as widespread as it was, or the other dopers are riding smarter.

Raam

tunney wrote: »

Seriously. The fault for you feelnig deflated lies with yourself.

Anyone with a bit of cop on knew what was happening. His performances "seemed too good to be true". If you thought for one second he was clean during the tour then you, well..... you probably think LA was clean.

That's too harsh. We all know that people in the peleton are still doping. We can still feel dissapointed or deflated when someone is proven to be a doper.

'68 Fastback

I'm pretty new to the tarmac side of cycling and am wondering if doping is as rampant in the mountain biking world? Anyone know?

WicklowRacer

'68 wrote:

I'm pretty new to the tarmac side of cycling and am wondering if doping is as rampant in the mountain biking world? Anyone know?

Alledgely, its worse ! - the controls are not as tight because there is not as much $$$ around.

Diarmuid

littleknown wrote: »

the whole thing is a joke. nobody can be trusted. you cannot watch a stage win without asking if drugs were involved.

Welcome to 1994.

Chips Lovell

Rumour has it that there's 10 positives from this round of testing. Piepoli had two and Schumacher one, so there could be up to seven more riders.

littleknown wrote: »

you cannot watch a stage win without asking if drugs were involved. im not confident the sport will ever be clean again "*"if it ever was?

There's been doping in cycling since the start almost.

littleknown wrote: »

how can these people cheat their own dreams?

If your dreams include winning and earning millions, doping helps.

'68 wrote:

I'm pretty new to the tarmac side of cycling and am wondering if doping is as rampant in the mountain biking world? Anyone know?

I don't know much about mountain biking. I remember hearing a while back that there wasn't much money in the sport, so fewer riders could afford the drugs.

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

Gutted, again.

Me to....Its all a farce. I don't think the penalties are harsh enough. There should be a 10 year ban for any drug cheats and also the repayment of all salaries for that year.

Any team caught doping (don't tell me the teams don't know) should be immediately suspended from the current seasons competitions and downgraded from 'level one' status and need to prove 1 years of a complete drugs testing program at an acceptable level... Another failure would result in the teams licence being cancelled and the director sportif being banned from all UCI organised events.

The sponsors should all build in clauses also to get any annual sponsorship monies back.

arybvtcw0eolkf

littleknown wrote: »

how can these people cheat their own dreams?

Its not cheating their own dreams.

Its very simple, the opposition are juicing and taking drugs levels that playing field. And until a big time whistle blower brings this whole thing down cyclists and all athletes will take drugs.

It goes deeper than that, sponsors know it, coaches and medical teams know it and the other cyclists know who's juicing, you can bet your life on it.

The pitiful thing is that everyone involved also know that in a clean field all competitors will/should place in the very same positions, why?. Because drugs don't alter your genetics, they help proformance, help your train and compete more/harder and recover from injuries quicker.

But they can never alter your genetics, so like I said. In a clean competition all competitors should place in the very same positions as they would with drugs, but the times will be down. The events they can cover in a year will be down and so at the end of the day the money people make will be down!.

A big/BIG time whistle blower, a perfected mean's of testing and everyone's a winner.

tunney

Mairt wrote: »

But they can never alter your genetics, so like I said.

But they can. Rumours of gene doping have been rife for the last few years.

scottreynolds

Mairt wrote: »

Its not cheating their own dreams.

Its very simple, the opposition are juicing and taking drugs levels that playing field.

You have to believe there's someone clean. If there's not then the whole thing is a waste. I believe that there's clean athletes ala Paul Kimmage -- although we know he cheated.

arybvtcw0eolkf

tunney wrote: »

But they can. Rumours of gene doping have been rife for the last few years.

I'd love to see the evidence for it, I'm not saying your not telling the truth.

But that would be huge news right across the medical world and not just for cycling.

But until thats proven, and proven it works the basic fact remains that drugs won't alter your genetics and your genetics should determine your athletic proformance.

So in a clean field, or a field where all athetes are taking the same drugs/amounts (and most will be very close) all the athletes should place in the same positions.

'Gene doping', seriously I hope that only ever stays a rumour.

arybvtcw0eolkf

scottreynolds wrote: »

You have to believe there's someone clean. If there's not then the whole thing is a waste. I believe that there's clean athletes ala Paul Kimmage -- although we know he cheated.

At the very top levels of any sport I really don't believe anyone's clean.

If people are not juicing in competition they're juicing in the off season, and in the off season its very easy to avoid drug testing, its also very easy to use drugs with a very short half life to boost off season training. And those gains made in the off season will take a long time to taper off when your clean.

So off season juicing then going clean during the competition season will still pay dividends.

Chips Lovell

Mairt wrote: »

The pitiful thing is that everyone involved also know that in a clean field all competitors will/should place in the very same positions, why?. Because drugs don't alter your genetics, they help proformance, help your train and compete more/harder and recover from injuries quicker.

I see where your coming from, but I think it's a mistaken view. First of all, drugs help some athletes more than others. Take the case of blood boosting drugs. Different people have different haemotocrit levels. The guy with a a 40% natural level is going to benefit more than the guy with a 45% level.

Secondly, not everyone is willing to assume the same level of risk. In the glory days of EPO, some guys were pumping their haemotocrit up to 60% and beyond, which apparently puts huge strain on the heart as the blood is significantly thickened. That's to say nothing of guys who are willing to risk long term health problems for short term gains. Thevenet said he suffered liver damage from steroid abuse. I've also heard rumours of two big name riders from the nineties who now have serious health problems because of drug use.

Thirdly, the best doping programmes cost a huge amount of money. Not all riders can afford them.

tunney wrote: »

But they can. Rumours of gene doping have been rife for the last few years.

I've heard the rumours, but never anything concrete on how it could be done.

arybvtcw0eolkf

el tonto wrote: »

I see where your coming from, but I think it's a mistaken view. First of all, drugs help some athletes more than others. Take the case of blood boosting drugs. Different people have different haemotocrit levels. The guy with a a 40% natural level is going to benefit more than the guy with a 45% level.

Secondly, not everyone is willing to assume the same level of risk. In the glory days of EPO, some guys were pumping their haemotocrit up to 60% and beyond, which apparently puts huge strain on the heart as the blood is significantly thickened. That's to say nothing of guys who are willing to risk long term health problems for short term gains. Thevenet said he suffered liver damage from steroid abuse. I've also heard rumours of two big name riders from the nineties who now have serious health problems because of drug use.

.

I'll have to confess at this point that I know little or nothing about EPO, but it would be foolish to think that riders aren't using other drugs in their off season training too, even the guys who don't use EPO during racing.

Personally I don't have any real strong view's on it either way. I accept that athletes will take drugs and I'm not shocked when they're caught.

But I am very disappointed for the guys who love sport and who believe/hope athletes are training and competing clean. For those people I'm very disappointed.

Chips Lovell

Mairt wrote: »

I'll have to confess at this point that I know little or nothing about EPO, but it would be foolish to think that riders aren't using other drugs in their off season training too, even the guys who don't use EPO during racing.

You're absolutely right, stuff does go on in the off season alright. However, riders are subject to testing year round. Having said that, it appears there has always been efforts to avoid or circumvent these tests. That's what Rasmussen was done for. Said he was in Mexico, but really was in Italy. There have also been several long standing allegations that corrupt officials are tipping off riders about out of competition testing.

Diarmuid

Mairt wrote: »

field where all athetes are taking the same drugs/amounts (and most will be very close) all the athletes should place in the same positions.

Not true. People respond differently to drugs.

'68 Fastback

Again, a noobie question maybe but to what extent are these performance enhancing drugs illegal? Are they just illegal in the sporting arena or are they illegal for everyone?

Chips Lovell

'68 wrote:

Again, a noobie question maybe but to what extent are these performance enhancing drugs illegal? Are they just illegal in the sporting arena or are they illegal for everyone?

In most cases you are probably talking about the equivalent of having any restricted drug without a prescription. However, in some countries, doping for the purposes of sporting performance enhancement is a criminal offence, e.g. France. It wasn't in Spain until a few years ago, which is why Operation Puerto ended up in such a huge mess. Big police raid, loads of stuff recovered, lists of riders code-names etc. and the only thing they could try and charge the guy with was "endangering public health". It didn't stick.

showry

'68 wrote:

Again, a noobie question maybe but to what extent are these performance enhancing drugs illegal? Are they just illegal in the sporting arena or are they illegal for everyone?

EPO's produced by Amgen, sponsors of the Tour of California

scottreynolds

showry wrote: »

EPO's produced by Amgen, sponsors of the Tour of California

That could be the funniest things I have ever heard.

tunney

Mairt wrote: »

So in a clean field, or a field where all athetes are taking the same drugs/amounts (and most will be very close) all the athletes should place in the same positions.

Incorrect.

The order the athletes would place in would be reflecting their response to EPO and not their athletic ability. People do not react to EPO in the same way, for some it gives a huge improvement, others only minor.

tunney

Mairt wrote: »

I'll have to confess at this point that I know little or nothing about EPO

Most posters on this thread don't seem to know much either.(or on the other LA thread) There is a huge wealth of information on what riders take, how they take it, when they take it and the benefits different drugs take.

It really is fascinating what people will pump into themselves. Will try to dig out some of the better articles.

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

It really is fascinating what people will pump into themselves. Will try to dig out some of the better articles.

It's just the cheating which makes it wrong.

Perhaps the dopers need a specific event. Call it the Tour de Boots, or Giro d'X-Men. Sort of an unregulated "prototype human" class. Gene therapy would be encouraged.

Personally, I'd be quite interested in the biomechanical advantages of a three-legged, two-hearted human on a carbon-nanotube recumbent tricycle.

Funkyzeit

Just read the Schue news.

I know most people in hindsight will say they knew he was on the juice but it was blindingly obvious IMO that he was - it was the constant attacks and aggression day after day and what did it for me was his performance in the TT which was unreal...To beat a specialist like Cancellara by over a half a minute was a red flag...

El Tonto - do you know if and when they'll be releasing the other names of the other CERA riders? I'd love to have a guess

Chips Lovell

Funkyzeit wrote: »

El Tonto - do you know if and when they'll be releasing the other names of the other CERA riders? I'd love to have a guess

Some time during the coming week I believe. There's a few names floating around already, but I've no idea if they're correct or not.

Funkyzeit

el tonto wrote: »

Some time during the coming week I believe. There's a few names floating around already, but I've no idea if they're correct or not.

I've heard a couple mentioned alright...Danka !

stopped_clock

Link to an article in the Economist (of all places) discussing gene doping, including a suggestion that a drug with the "gene for EPO" has been in circulation since '06 at least. I presume this causes the body to produce more natural EPO rather than introducing synthetic EPO.

Is there ever any sanction taken against the doctors?

Diarmuid

el tonto wrote: »

Some time during the coming week I believe. There's a few names floating around already, but I've no idea if they're correct or not.

WARNING: Speculation ahead

I'm putting my money on a rider who's name rhymes with Bohl...

tunney

Diarmuid wrote: »

WARNING: Speculation ahead

I'm putting my money on a rider who's name rhymes with Bohl...

*AG2R: Valjavec plus 1 rider from: (Efimkin, Dessel, Arrieta, Dupont, Elmiger, Gadret, Goubert of Riblon)

*Saunier Duval: Ricco, Piepoli en Cobo

*Team Columbia: Two riders from: (Kirchen, Hincapie, Burghardt, Cavendish, Ciolek, Eisel, Hansen, Lovkvist of Siutsou)

*CSC: Five riders from: (Cancellara, Fränk Schleck, Andy Schleck, O'Grady, Voigt, Gustov, Sastre, Arvesen of Sörensen)

*Gerolsteiner: Two riders from: (Schumacher, Kohl, Förster, Fothen, Haussler, Krauss, Lang, Scholz of Wegmann)

Team Test Cervelo was only set up because Cervelo realised how many of the CSC lads were on the juice. The so called clean team of Columbia yielding two positives will be devastating to cycing.

Chips Lovell

The net widens. According to Velonews, the IOC are going to retest samples from the Olympics with this new test.

Diarmuid

I'd rate myself as pretty cynical but I didn't think that many riders would have been so dumb. I hope Sastre isn't one.

tunney

Diarmuid wrote: »

I'd rate myself as pretty cynical but I didn't think that many riders would have been so dumb. I hope Sastre isn't one.

If you accept the argument that the whole reason for Team Test Cervelo was to remove the association between Cervelo the brand and the dirty riders on CSC-Saxobank then you could make the argument that Sastre win in the TdF was done clean. He only had two good days - the stage in the Alps where his VAM was less than 1700 on that climb (Armstrong era is over 1800) and the final time trial, nothing spectular and nothing "too good to be true". Its a credible win.

TinyExplosions

tunney wrote: »

Its a credible win.

Why is there a part of me that wants him to test positive, just cos you've said that

Seriously though, I think he won it clean myself -he had the best team that helped him over the harder days, and as Tunney said only had a couple of good days himself

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Why is there a part of me that wants him to test positive, just cos you've said that

Seriously though, I think he won it clean myself -he had the best team that helped him over the harder days, and as Tunney said only had a couple of good days himself

Does it detract from Sastre's win if some of the CSC boys have positive tests?
After all, it's a team event.

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

Does it detract from Sastre's win if some of the CSC boys have positive tests?
After all, it's a team event.

I'd have to say 'no' -the cynic in me would think that maybe he knew his team were doping, and kept clean to use all the benefits they could give him, and still 'win clean' -but I'm going with the hope that he just rode his race and won, regardless of what the others were doing

Chips Lovell

I know his name has been floated by the rumour mill in connection to this investigation, but to be honest, Sastre is one of the few top level riders I'd be genuinely surprised by if he tested positive.

There's a few reasons for that. For start, he was Jimenez's brother-in-law and his death hit him pretty hard. The word is that he wanted nothing to do with the usual 'preparation' methods and has always done his own thing.

Secondly, he's been nothing but consistent. Every grand tour he rides, he's there or thereabouts and any improvement he's made over the past few years has been slow, painfully slow if anything. He doesn't ride like a doper, brilliant in one race, anonymous in the next. And he's never been one of those guys you see gliding up the mountains breathing through his nose. Even when he's going well he always looks like he's suffering like a dog.

Raam wrote: »

Does it detract from Sastre's win if some of the CSC boys have positive tests? After all, it's a team event.

To a certain extent yes. While he won the race on Alpe d'Huez, you would have to ask if would have gotten away without the work the team put in on the day and in the stages preceeding.

niceonetom

in a sport so sullied are there any riders left that you just can't imagine doping? who, if caught, would rob you of your last shred of hope, not just in cyling, but in sport, indeed in humanity itself? we all consider our selves fairly unshockable now, inured to the scandals and the shame of it, but really, what would it take to make you say "enough, this sport is broken"?

or do we just accept that there will always be a certain level of doping and containing the probelm is the best we can hope for?

and as for forthcoming revelations, has someone opened a book on this? I'll have a tenner each way on Voigt (too much time dragging the peleton up the alps for my liking, breaks me heart but - Fabi too btw), and everything else i own on Kohl.

i hope that sastre was clean/gets away with it, if only to avoid having to have that same goddam conversation with non-cyclists for whom "winner cheated" will be the only fact they have. again.

TinyExplosions

niceonetom wrote: »

who, if caught, would rob you of your last shred of hope, not just in cyling, but in sport, indeed in humanity itself?

Voight for me.... if he's caught, I'm just going to give up! I would put a tenner each way on him for much the same reasons as you, but it'd still hit hard if he's positive

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Voight for me.... if he's caught, I'm just going to give up! I would put a tenner each way on him for much the same reasons as you, but it'd still hit hard if he's positive

Not in the tour, but Nicholas Roche.

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

in a sport so sullied are there any riders left that you just can't imagine doping? who, if caught, would rob you of your last shred of hope, not just in cyling, but in sport, indeed in humanity itself?

Moncoutie

niceonetom wrote: »

or do we just accept that there will always be a certain level of doping and containing the probelm is the best we can hope for?

...

i hope that sastre was clean/gets away with it, if only to avoid having to have that same goddam conversation with non-cyclists for whom "winner cheated" will be the only fact they have. again.

I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that dope testing is still imperfect. You can't catch all of the cheaters all of the time. However, we are without doubt now catching more of the cheaters, more of the time.

To be honest, I think the PR efforts by the authorities and the teams create too much expectation of a clean sport. We're constantly hearing about how there's zero tolerance now to doping and how cyclists are the most tested athletes on the planet and this creates an expectation among the public that cycling is now clean. Hence the disappointment when another doper is caught. Yet the reality is that it's now much harder to cheat and get away with it and that you can no longer dope to the extent you could before.

The media doesn't help either. I think English language journalists either a.) only cover cycling occasionally and don't know enough about the sport or b.) love the access they get and the privilege of palling around with riders and directors that they don't ask enough hard questions.

Gavin

There's an interesting documentary called "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" I watched the other day. It's mainly about steroids and body building but is quite an interesting look at drugs in sports. Floyd Landis makes an appearance, as does gene doping.

Shows how doping is not just as black and white as people seem to generally view it.

tunney

niceonetom wrote: »

and as for forthcoming revelations, has someone opened a book on this? I'll have a tenner each way on Voigt (too much time dragging the peleton up the alps for my liking, breaks me heart but - Fabi too btw),

Yeah once Cancellera started climbing half way decently that was it.

Funkyzeit

Raam wrote: »

Not in the tour, but Nicholas Roche.

Hope you're wrong but watching him in the Vuelta was thinking the same...

Raam

Funkyzeit wrote: »

Hope you're wrong but watching him in the Vuelta was thinking the same...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing him of anything